how to deal with our supreme court

[king_faisal]

on behalf of my firm, i trade emerging markets securities. today, i decided to sell my investments in pak which until recently was my favourite investment destination. one of the main reasons i was bullish on pak was that the current group of pakistani economic managers are by a big margin, better than their counterparts in other emerging markets like india or the philippines. thanks to the supreme court however, not only will the economic team be disbanded, but also politicians - the worst element of pakistani society - will now exercise unchecked control over pak. apparently our supreme court thinks that politicians are allowed to commit any crime in pak. the competence of our supreme court can easily judged by the fact that these guys have not been able to find zardari and nawaz sharif guilty of corruption.

the jungleepunna displayed by our politicians will pretty soon scare away all foreign investors who last year put around $7-8bn in pak. foreign investment is critical to pak because it helps to keep the currency stable. rise of china has caused big increase in demand for commodities like oil and food items which in turn is driving inflation in countries like pak which lack natural resources. without foreign investment, rupee will depreciate which in turn will drive import prices thereby sending inflation through the roof. and its the ghareeb tubqa most impacted by inflation. unfortunately global economic situation is much tougher now compared to in the 1990’s so room for error is very small.

one aspect of 1990’s pak i would like to see revived is the treatment our politicians meted out to judges. that, i am afraid, is the only zubaan the bozos sitting in our supreme court understand.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

SHABAASH

Edit: my condolences for selling it on the lower locks. of course, the tentacles of this conspiracy go straight to chamber # 1 in SC.

[system]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

Long term Economic stability is tied to political stability... How can you invest in a country where you can be failry certain, that tommorow the situation will be comepetely different from today?
Pakistani history is replete with examples of this instability...
For whatever its worth, a strong supreme court, or any strong democratic institution, is a benefit to the country overall..

The decisions the SC makes today may seem counterproductive, but we have to keep in mind the long term benefits to PAKISTAN... For far to long we have tended to overlook the long term implications for the sake of short term gains... Independant judiciary isnt not a short term gain, it is somehting long term and somthing tangible.

[king_faisal]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

@Flame_of_Life

SHABAASH

Edit: my condolences for selling it on the lower locks. of course, the tentacles of this conspiracy go straight to chamber # 1 in SC.

try again. i dont trade stocks and nor i am in pak. moreover neither am i abrar ul haq.

[king_faisal]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

Long term Economic stability is tied to political stability... How can you invest in a country where you can be failry certain, that tommorow the situation will be comepetely different from today? Pakistani history is replete with examples of this instability... For whatever its worth, a strong supreme court, or any strong democratic institution, is a benefit to the country overall..

The decisions the SC makes today may seem counterproductive, but we have to keep in mind the long term benefits to PAKISTAN... For far to long we have tended to overlook the long term implications for the sake of short term gains... Independant judiciary isnt not a short term gain, it is somehting long term and somthing tangible.

judiciary is not independent in china. and neither do the cheenas have democratic institutions. yet they seem to be doing fine - much better than india which has both independent judiciary and democratic institutions.

[Reza_Pahlavi]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

A comment by a correspondent in the Nation today:-

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/aug-2007/24/index5.php

When they talk of judicial activism, the constitutional experts are no less appreciative of Justice Khalil-ur-Rehman Ramday who was heading the 13-judge bench that restored Chief Justice of Pakistan by knocking down a presidential reference against him. “Ramday has now held the bar too high and all his brother judges have to keep up to the standard”, said an expert, fearing a massive backlash from public in case the judiciary tumbles down in any test of time.

The Supreme Court is one of the three constitutional pillars of the state, and alone it cannot fulfill the desires of close to 170 million people. Very soon (I give it 6 months) this Supreme Court under this very CJ could be attacked and vilified in many parts of Pakistan - if it tries to be the sole champion of the people. The judges alone can only do so much, and can never fulfill the aspirations and desires of the vast bulk of the people. We are inherently a “na shukr” nation who want instant remedies to our ills. It is the job of the leaders, govt and parliament as the representatives of the people to do that.

While it is essential it acts as a checks and balance on other the other pillars, the Supreme Court must not be seek to them confront them directly, and end in bitter deadlock with them. When it last did that it ended up being attacked physically by Nawaz Sharif’s goons, and its’ CJ being turfed out of office. I pray that this CJ or at least his brother judges have a sense of history and responsibility, otherwise they may end up losing their hard won indepedence in a dirty fight with other institutions.

[system]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

judiciary is not independent in china. and neither do the cheenas have democratic institutions. yet they seem to be doing fine - much better than india which has both independent judiciary and democratic institutions.

Yeah, but then China is far less unruly and far more discplined then Pakistan.. The Chinese thus, have a stable system in place... In Pakistan you have way to many polarizing elements in society which HAVE destablalied the country time and again...

Isnt it about time we learned that making a quick buck at the expense of the nations long term stability isnt worth it?

The poor people of Pakistan finally have an institution that they can rely on for justice... The little man in Pakistan has been crushed time and again by industrialists, politicians, Army, feudals, you name it... We need a strong institution which can provide them justice.

As for India, after 50 years of low growth, their stability is ensuring long term growth... In Pakistan, we dont even know if the economy is going to survive next week! Stocks which were soaring last week at over 15000 points have now crashed to 12000!

[system]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

@Reza_Pahlavi

A comment by a correspondent in the Nation today:-

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/aug-2007/24/index5.php

The Supreme Court is one of the three constitutional pillars of the state, and alone it cannot fulfill the desires of close to 170 million people. Very soon (I give it 6 months) this Supreme Court under this very CJ could be attacked and vilified in many parts of Pakistan - if it tries to be the sole champion of the people. The judges alone can only do so much, and can never fulfill the aspirations and desires of the vast bulk of the people. We are inherently a “na shukr” nation who want instant remedies to our ills. It is the job of the leaders, govt and parliament as the representatives of the people to do that.

While it is essential it acts as a checks and balance on other the other pillars, the Supreme Court must not be seek to them confront them directly, and end in bitter deadlock with them. When it last did that it ended up being attacked physically by Nawaz Sharif’s goons, and its’ CJ being turfed out of office. I pray that this CJ or at least his brother judges have a sense of history and responsibility, otherwise they may end up losing their hard won indepedence in a dirty fight with other institutions.

Yeah, thats genuine concern… Its happened before aswell with different institutions..

[Captain1]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

on behalf of my firm, i trade emerging markets securities. today, i decided to sell my investments in pak which until recently was my favourite investment destination. one of the main reasons i was bullish on pak was that the current group of pakistani economic managers are by a big margin, better than their counterparts in other emerging markets like india or the philippines. thanks to the supreme court however, not only will the economic team be disbanded, but also politicians - the worst elements of pakistani society - will now exercise unchecked controlled over pak. apparently our supreme court thinks that politicians are allowed to commit any crime in pak. the competence of our supreme court can easily judged by the fact that these guys have not been able to find zardari and nawaz sharif guilty of corruption.

the jungleepunna displayed by our politicians will pretty soon scare away all foreign investors who last year put around $7-8bn in pak. foreign investment is critical to pak because it helps to keep the currency stable. rise of china has caused big increase in demand for commodities like oil and food items which in turn is driving inflation in countries like pak which lack natural resources. without foreign investment, rupee will depreciate which in turn will drive import prices thereby sending inflation through the roof. and its the ghareeb tubqa most impacted by inflation. unfortunately global economic situation is much tougher now compared to in the 1990's so room for error is very small.

one aspect of 1990's pak i would like to see revived is the treatment our politicians meted out to judges. that, i am afraid, is the only zubaan the bozos sitting in our supreme court understand.

So you would rather have dictators controlling Pakistan than democracy nurture? Yes it is a loss for you, probably a loss for few years down the road but shouldn't you be valuing "justice" rather than your own lust for money?

[hanibal]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

on behalf of my firm, i trade emerging markets securities. today, i decided to sell my investments in pak which until recently was my favourite investment destination. one of the main reasons i was bullish on pak was that the current group of pakistani economic managers are by a big margin, better than their counterparts in other emerging markets like india or the philippines. thanks to the supreme court however, not only will the economic team be disbanded, but also politicians - the worst elements of pakistani society - will now exercise unchecked controlled over pak. apparently our supreme court thinks that politicians are allowed to commit any crime in pak. the competence of our supreme court can easily judged by the fact that these guys have not been able to find zardari and nawaz sharif guilty of corruption.

the jungleepunna displayed by our politicians will pretty soon scare away all foreign investors who last year put around $7-8bn in pak. foreign investment is critical to pak because it helps to keep the currency stable. rise of china has caused big increase in demand for commodities like oil and food items which in turn is driving inflation in countries like pak which lack natural resources. without foreign investment, rupee will depreciate which in turn will drive import prices thereby sending inflation through the roof. and its the ghareeb tubqa most impacted by inflation. unfortunately global economic situation is much tougher now compared to in the 1990's so room for error is very small.

one aspect of 1990's pak i would like to see revived is the treatment our politicians meted out to judges. that, i am afraid, is the only zubaan the bozos sitting in our supreme court understand.

don't blame others for ur miscalculations.

If ur firm is selling investments, do let me know by PM, as if they are in line of our policy, i'll make my firm to buy those. so if ur firm is serious in selling those then do PM me.

and i do doubt the competence of ur Invesment decision maker who thinks Philipine is better destination. :D unless and otherwise they don't have their brains "somewhere" else.

[king_faisal]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

sure, supreme court should provide checks and balances. but it is not a policy making institution nor should it make decisions based on the political beliefs of judges.

on privatisation, our judges have gone on record as stating that govt should not privatise profitable institution. making economic policy is not the business of supreme court. and the fact that judges make public statement on a case which is sub judice shows that judges are unfit for their office.

similary the judiciary released doctor brothers who themselves admitted to treating al-qaeedah. what kind of court releases people who admit to providing aid to groups that want to overthrow the govt of pak through violent means?

as for looking out for little guy, how is not convicting zardari and nawaz sharif helping out the little guy?

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

What are you complaining abt Faisal? Just load your money in suitcases and give to sharief brothers - they'll double it for in no time. Not even charge 10%

[Captain1]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

on privatisation, our judges have gone on record as stating that govt should not privatise profitable institution. making economic policy is not the business of supreme court. and the fact that judges make public statement on case which is sub judice shows that judges are unfit for their office.

A "statement", not a "verdict", correct? Is our "military" fit for their office who is not supposed to take over government of the country?

[quote]
similary the judiciary released doctor brothers who themselves admitted to treating al-qaeedah. what kind of court releases people who admit to providing aid to groups that want to overthrow the govt of pak through violent means?
[/quote]

What about ISI people who continue to support such violent groups? How about army carving out different political parties, even such violent as MQM or MQM haqiqi?

[king_faisal]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

just to give people an indication of how intl financial mkts view pak in terms of risk.

cds is the instrument which indicates the riskiness of investment in different mkts or companies. lower the cds spread, safer the investment. currently pakistan 5 year cds is quoted at around 450 basis points (bps)

about six weeks ago, the difference in cds spread between pak and indonesia/philippines was 100 basis points. currently the difference is around 250 basis points. for comparison, difference between thailand which is under military rule and indo/phil is 140 in favour of thailand. this spread is 120 in favour of egypt which is also not a democracy. difference between egypt and pak is around 350.

bottomline, democracy has nothing to do with riskiness of investment. cds spread of pak will go up should nawaz/zardari come to power.

[king_faisal]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

check out how zardari deals with judges who crossed him

http://www.dawn.com/2004/12/22/nat1.htm

KARACHI, Dec 21: The district and sessions judge, Central, on Tuesday cancelled the bail of Asif Ali Zardari, the husband of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, and ordered his re-arrest in the Justice Nizam murder case.

The judge issued non-bailable warrants for the arrest of Mr Zardari, and also ordered confiscation of the surety of Rs300,000 deposited by Mr Zardari. The judge ordered the prosecution agency to arrest Mr Zardari and produce him before the court on Jan 8, the next date of hearing.

The court also cancelled the bail granted to Javed Akhtar Pirzada, another accused in the case, as he did not appear before the court despite repeated notices. Asif Zardari was released in November after he spent eight years in jail on charges of murder, corruption and drug smuggling.

Asif Zardari, Akhtar Javed Pirzada, Bilal Shaikh and Babar Sindhu are facing charges of the double murder. Justice Nizam Ahmed of Sindh High Court and his son Nadim Ahmed, a lawyer, were shot dead in an attack on June 10, 1996, outside their house in PECHS.

The complainant, Group Captain (Retd) Sikandar, brother-in-law of Justice Nizam Ahmed, had lodged an FIR of the incident at Ferozabad police station. The killings were attributed to a dispute over a prized plot near Awami Markaz as Justice Nizam Ahmed had opposed its commercialization and illegal allotment.

The plot was stated to be purchased by Javed Akhtar Pirzada as a front man for ex-Senator Asif Ali Zardari, an accused in the case. Shahdat Awan, counsel for Mr Zardari, told Dawn that he reached the court of Judge Pir Ali Shah at 8:30am with an application, seeking exemption for his client.

[Captain1]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

bottomline, democracy has nothing to do with riskiness of investment. cds spread of pak will go up should nawaz/zardari come to power.

I agree that "investment" needs political stability, but you can't blame the justice system for permission to Nawaz Sharif for coming back to the country. The kicking out of Nawaz out of country (through "agreements") was a great injustice to the nation to begin with, now that he is allowed to be back it would be even greater if he is put to trial and then rots in jail (if cases are proved against him).

Instead of worrying about "investment" first, we should be worrying about "justice" first. Without justice we wouldn't have a society in first place, we need to establish judiciary as stepping stone, "accountability" should be our next step.

[Captain1]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

@king_faisal

check out how zardari deals with judges who crossed him

http://www.dawn.com/2004/12/22/nat1.htm

KARACHI, Dec 21: The district and sessions judge, Central, on Tuesday cancelled the bail of Asif Ali Zardari, the husband of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, and ordered his re-arrest in the Justice Nizam murder case.

and he is in jail, another “justice” is keeping him there, this is how “justice system” works

[Sa1eem]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

The chief Justice who is guilty of corruption and nepotism and Supreme Court judges that gives protection to CJ corruption and nepotism, what one can expect from such Supreme Court?

[To me, CJ is guilty of corruption and nepotism (not just accused) because if he was not, he would have not done all to save himself from enquiry and would not have pleaded with his partner judges of Supreme Court to save him]

If I was in place of President Musharraf, I would first lure BB, AAZ, NS and SS back to Pakistan and then I would address the nation telling them that time has past for corrupts and country need some purging and thus martial law is been imposed on Pakistan … meanwhile when my address would be running on TV and other media, a battalion of few hundred armed men would be sent to all these goons and to other opposition leaders (all trouble makers) … with mission to eliminate all of them, making sure that by the time my address is finished all these people are no more there. Then I will see what would happen and would deal with the consequence later, after the action.

[Note: Hopefully after action, all trouble makers would be eliminated … except Qazi, Fazlu and other MMA leaders … as they are not trouble makers but retards and retards can be forgiven for their trouble because they are mentally handicap. They would be sent to prison .

Fact is that I like some of the actions of this corrupt CJ and if he agrees that he would behave and cooperate than he could be left to do some goods for the country, else there would be no harm to eliminate some corrupt judges too.]

After elimination of unwanted parasites, if all get sorted out then I would declare political party moratorium (complete suspension of all activities of political parties) in the country … leaving local body functioning and intact. Then I would try to get country developed peacefully giving lot of emphasis on education. If things go bad then I will see how to sort that out after eliminating all these parasites from the country.

Well, that would have been me but unfortunately we have an army general in power that seems to have too much hope from corrupt judges and politicians. Musharraf is commando by profession and a commando sometime acts ruthlessly without a lot of thinking on consequence. I hope and pray that President acts like a commando, eliminate these corrupt goons and do some favour to people like us

Kahta hoon saach kay jhoot kee adaat nahi mujhay
Gar lagtaa hay bura kisie ko tou may kiya karoon

[Captain1]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

@Sa1eem

Well, that would have been me but unfortunately we have an army general in power that seems to have too much hope from corrupt judges and politicians.

someone is still hurt by the CJ saga, whatever happened to the justice system when it “endorsed” the illegal rule of Musharraf which you don’t seem to question at all, iss hammam mai sab hi nangay hayn - Musharraf included. You seem to have hope from corrupt leader who chose corrupt elements of our political scenario to stick with him and form a so-called “democracy”.

[Sa1eem]

Re: how to deal with our supreme court

@Captain1

someone is still hurt by the CJ saga, whatever happened to the justice system when it “endorsed” the illegal rule of Musharraf which you don’t seem to question at all, iss hammam mai sab hi nangay hayn - Musharraf included. You seem to have hope from corrupt leader who chose corrupt elements of our political scenario to stick with him and form a so-called “democracy”.

Brother … carry on laughing, this is life Sometime in this worldly life one have to ignore legality and illegality as that could become shackle in the way when something drastic need to be done.

Though all bad happens when a person overrides the legality of a thing, but then a good is also only possible when a person overrides the shackle of legality and illegality.