How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

The most effective way of tackling suffering of people and avoiding refugee problem in any country from aggression of other countries is to give them power to defend themselves and stop others making them refugee. That would be humanitarian thing to do too.

The best arsenal for modern defence and for guerrilla warfare (to defend own country) is to have latest hand held IR-SAM missiles. American supplied stinger missiles in Afghan war that devastated Russian ability to control Afghan sky. When USA attacked Afghanistan, the biggest threat they were worried about was from any leftover stinger missiles.

Pakistan has developed a more effective hand held IR Unza Mk-III surface to air missiles then hand held IR American Stinger surface to air missiles. *.

It is best that Pakistan should start selling Unza III missiles to Iran, Lebanon, Syria or any country in that region (or friendly countries anywhere) that may have interest and want to buy them. This would reduce the cost of manufacturing these missiles (due to increase in their manufacturing quantity) and would bring highly needed foreign exchange earnings to Pakistan that country needs to enhance their defensive ability further.

It would also neutralize Air force superiority of any country in that region, reducing refugee problems and atrocities on civilians (that should not happen in the first place).

I believe that if Pakistan effectively markets such missiles (Unza III is a defensive weapon and all countries should have right to keep as many as they want), Pakistan might be able to sell 5000 to 10,000 of them easily, making Pakistan earn huge foreign exchange. Pakistan should also try to sell other defensive weapons to the region too, that would devastate any aggressors in the area.

[An old article on Unza-III below from an Indian source says that it has an effective range of 7 to 9 Km. What I know, it has range of around 15 Km].

http://www.tribuneindia.com/1999/99aug31/world.htm

**Pak **to test fire advanced missile in Sept

ISLAMABAD, Aug 30 (PTI) — Pakistan has reportedly developed an advanced version of its surface-to-air “Unza” missile, with which it had claimed to have downed an Indian MIG fighter in the recent Kargil conflict, and proposes to testfire it in September.

"Unza-III, latest in the Unza series of surface-to-air missiles with an extended range than its predecessor, will be tested sometime in September, " the Internews private news agency reported quoting defence officials.

“The missile has an active seven-kilometre range, which can be extended upto nine km,” an official was quoted as saying. Pakistani already possesses the Unza-I with a range of four and a half km and the Unza-II with a range of five km.

The official said preparations were underway at the country’s premier nuclear institution, the Kahuta Research Laboratory (KRL) headed by Abdul Qadeer Khan for the test flight of the missile.

“The decision over serial production of Unza-III will be taken after its satisfactory test.”

Defence officials claimed Pakistan had used Unza-II to shoot down the MIG-21 aircraft of Sq Ldr Ajay Ahuja on May 27 over the Kargil peaks.*

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

Saleem Sahib. I guess some folks have already forgotten what Iranians and Libyans did to their Pakistani brother / helper / traitor / black-marketer AQ Khan.

How many more Pakistanis would you like to be implicated in international smuggling of weapons?

p.s. you are repeating the same insane suggestions so I am reiterating the dangers of selling any weapons to our brozers.

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

I already said in other thread that giving a country “defending power” doesn’t mean there will be no refugees. I am sure everybody remembers Afghanistan who got all the power to defend even kick out Russia but still there was a big population fleeing out because of the situation. The bordering areas will have to be evacuated anyway regardless of how good your defense is.

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

^^ Brother, If country can defend against air strikes, there would be no refugee problems just because of air strikes. There would be refugee problems if there would be land invasion but then, if country can defend their land or are willing to fight for their country to the last blood, there would be no problem, rather no one would dare to invade such country.

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

How can we help Lebanon when we cannot ourselves defend against high flying fighter aircraft?

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

Pakistan has enough of its own problems as it is right now than to get involved in Arab affairs. These people will never be grateful for our help and they dont deserve it. I do feel bad for the lebanese people though and their suffering but their own leaders are to blame for their problems.

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

Just selling Anza missiles would not help. Instead it would call for increased enemity for Pakistan and put us in danger. In reality it is all about help yourself, like we helped ourselves. No Muslim brother gave us these Shaheens and Ghauris!

Defence of a state is a comprehensive thing, not just missiles, its also about education, media, communications, and armed forces + brains.

Our heart bleeds for our brothers but we must save ourselves first.

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

I totally agree with the sentiments of the writer...Air superiority is the number one reason any nation can subdue the other nation...

With the selling of Unzas, not will Pakistan reiterate itself as a weapons manufacturer, but in tme with the added capital from arms sale, can invest in R&D for new, better and improved eapons technology...

It is about time Pakistan entered the lucrative and highly profitable market of weapons manufacturing and sales...

And I suggest the first sales should immediately be to the mid east countries for their defensive purposes...

15 KM is a phenomenal range, almost bordering on the range of surface to surface missiles...It's an awesome development...

I say go for it...

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

I'm no expert, but how is it possible for a hand held missile to have a range of 15km??

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

What Unza stands for...anyone knows?

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

Super compression technology…

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

My sentiments exactly.

Pakistan needs to distance itself from the conflict in the middle east. Our stance needs to be "we offer moral support to the civilians that are being killed in Lebanon and Iraq or other places, but we cannot fight your wars or help you fight them", whether its fighting alongside US in Iraq or exporting our missiles to Lebanon so they could launch them against Isrealis.

Developing these missiles offers us strategic leverage against lets say Iran (besides India) as well. And by offering them to Iran we will lose the leverage we have maintained. On a side note, why do you think we have not gotten those F-16s from US for years? Its because US doesnt want to upset the strategic balance in the region besides India is very good at lobbying.

Also dont forget, we will lose whatever credibility we have left if we offer these missiles to the countries like Iran and Syria which are considered terrorists sympathizers by the US already. Have you forgotten already the case of AQ Khan and his black-market network?

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

What I think, Unza (or Anza) was the name of one of the spears of prophet (SAW).

These missiles (Unza III) are not surface-to-surface offensive weapon but it is surface-to-air defensive weapon. It only shoots down aircrafts. It is slightly over 10 Kilogram (less then 20 Kg with launcher) and around 1.5 meters long. This shoulder held infrared homing missile uses less then a kilo of explosives. With cruising speed of over 2500 Km an hour and specified self-destructing time it can easily destroy invading aircraft or self-destruct in air.

I think that Pakistan should jump into arms export in big way that can help its arms industry as more production quantity means less cost.

As for F-16, it is good aircrafts and would boost Pakistan Air force in medium terms (as Pakistan lacks production capacity of JF-17 and probably can only produce handfuls of these aircrafts a year). Though I would prefer that Pakistan use the money to buy and further develop Pakistan own produced Thunder (JF-17) that Pakistan developed with the help of China.

Problem with JF-17 is that, Pakistan capability of mass production, again due to shortage of funds and lack of quantity order, is limited. If Pakistan start exporting these aircrafts (as Pakistan is looking for customers), the cost of this aircraft to Pakistan would go down and with larger production requirements, Pakistan can increase investment and expand production capability.

JF-17 is quite a good aircraft and comparable to F-16, rather in some respect I believe better then F-16. I believe that it is better for Pakistan to rely on arsenal that is self produced then imported. I believe that more Pakistan exports, more self-sufficient in defence Pakistan would become.

I do not think that Pakistan need to choose friends according to the dictation of others. Buyers of Pakistan defence equipments are mostly Muslim countries and thus, there is no need to worry about happiness of countries who would ditch Pakistan anytime as they have always done that in past.

Regardless, country live with their best interest and peoples sentiments in mind and I believe that Pakistan interest and sentiments are with Muslims that are going through rough time, so why take our hands off them just to make countries happy who always betrayed Pakistan in time of need.

As for USA, today we have good relations but they are so unreliable that they can ditch Pakistan anytime tomorrow (that they have done several times before). Indian lobby, Israeli lobby, whatever or whoever to blame, for Pakistan USA was never and would never going to be a reliable country.

One should not think that USA is doing any favour in agreeing to export F-16 to Pakistan. They know that present Pakistan has developed their own aircraft that is as good. They also know that Pakistan with over 13 billion dollars reserve can buy similarly good aircrafts from other countries.

By selling F-16 to Pakistan, they are also going to drain Pakistan of valued foreign exchange that Pakistan could use in ordering and thus expanding their JF-17 production. They are also making Pakistan dependent on them (as F-16 spare parts could only come form them). I believe that Pakistan buying F-16 rather more of JF-17 would affect pricing, marketing and production capability of JF-17. That is probably the reason Pakistan has cut down on number of F-16 Pakistan ordering.

[Regardless, is there any guarantee that after order and USA receiving money, Pakistan would get the aircrafts or USA would force Pakistan to buy Soya beans at ridiculous price? Was it not that Pakistan once paid for F-16 and got Soya beans for that payment at ridiculous price? I wont trust to buy anything form a thug country with such record].

That is the reason, when Musharaf is parleying with USA, he is the first Pakistani head of state that went to Moscow too and is increasing relationship with all. Pakistan is keeping their interest regarding import of Gas from Iran, regardless of what USA would like.

One thing is for sure and that is, no country in the world can harm Pakistan from outside without having bloody nose themselves. Pakistan might not have offensive ability that needs for attacking anywhere they like but it certainly has formidable defensive ability. Only way any country (or group) can harm Pakistan is economically, by helping corrupts to get into power again and unaware Pakistanis to help them.

Iran is important to Pakistan, as that is the only country that can supply fuel through land routes. Rest of oil producing countries, most of them under severe influence of USA can only supply fuel to Pakistan using sea route and that is very unreliable route. In future, it is possible that China will also use Pakistani land route to import fuel from Iran. Thus, it is in interest of Pakistan that peace stays in the region and that can only happen if countries in the region have strong self-defence capability.

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

Great. Give them weapons so they can learn that the only way to solve a conflict is through violent means (or taking Israeli soldiers). That will only alienate Palestinians and Lebanese further in the world's eyes. The only way to empower is through education and proper infrastructure. Pakistan should float a few rupees that way and help in rebuilding Lebanon. If people can just be taught hope instead of despair, things would be much better for Muslims.

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

Lebanese are very well educated. The problem isn't education, it's the unjustified killings of civilians by Israel and the under-representation of the South Lebanese people.

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

Can an Anza MK III shoot down an F-16?

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

Whatever! The bottom line is that Lebanese with all their great education cannot control 1.5 million Shias and their Hizbiz leaders. Those 1.5 million Shias are now helping Israel destroy every inch of your country. So you wanna argue about Lebanese education. Go ahead. It won't help Lebanese stop those bombs raining down on Beirut.

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

Of course not. The rest of the Lebanese would love to subdue and oppress the 1.5 million Shia's and their leaders and a Nazi like you would support them. But the Shia are a strong and proud people. I know you hate Shias. Have you apologized to the Shias on this forum yet for your insulting comments towards them?

[QUOTE]
Those 1.5 million Shias are now helping Israel destroy every inch of your country.
[/quote]

Proof? Evidence?

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

watch your comments Da Best, Prince Abbas got banned from this site for calling Ohioguy a Nazi

Re: How Pakistan can help Lebanese suffering and any future suffering in the region.

Did Ohioguy call to control and subdue a group of 1.5 million people like antiobl did?