we cannot solve social problems by just saying this is sick and that's not.
we hav to look deep into the problem to see why its happening n continuing to increase. wat r the factors involved and how this could b stopped.
When mom says" mur kyoon nahin jtay..." its temporary. when its goes beyond tolerance ppl take measure steps. even though they might regret later.
for me i already said that i don't think the girls r always innocent n all clean. its both side's equal fault. the murderers r wrong so r most of these girls.
there should be some sort of counselling for problem, rebellious kids. most kids start showing pattern behaviour at young age which becomes serious as they grow n find more freedom. since sometimes ppl find them too contrained by law in discipling these kids they end up making extreme choices.
There was a thread here a 14 yrs dating a 11 yrs. now if the parents of these kids will try to stop them these kids will resist to their most. Obviously they can't disown them. Social services will get involved, relatives won't be quite. So they'll keep on solving the issue with their best resources. Now not all end up killing them but some might depending on their own personal strengths and core values.
If a person kills someone just out of blue or for fun, money, sex etc that could be sick but if parents killing kids they gav birth n raised with all love then there's extreme measure issues involved. they cannot be just labelled as sick or abnormal. they r helpless families that need serious help. Islamic organizations who collect zakat and donations whole time should come forward and do something abt this. i don't fall for the trap of just blaming one party and sympathizing with other.i try to see whole picture.
sometimes yes it could one party that is totally wrong or too extreme and conservative.
Islamically u r not allowed to kill any one not even ur unborn, undeveloped child. but then u r not allowed to disobey ur parents and go against their wishes. Kids can do watever they want, marry whoever they want is just westernized version of islam. they r not. Islamically If ur dad n mom r not happy with u Allah is simply not happy with u. for me this is enough reason for both parties to be wrong.
You are right we can not solve problems by labelling them but recognizing the problem is first step. But if the society keep seeing the murder victim as asking for it then it means that the problem is not recognized. Parents can do the upbringing of their kids to the best of their abilities but they should not assume the right to control their children's life. I am sure that you know how desi parents are when it comes to controlling and making decisions for their children.
Problem is the twisted core values which label girls as property to be protected. When arbitrary symblos like honor get associated with females and their activities then can cause harm to that honor ...the problem starts there. When your core values no matter where they come from, do not recognize the indiviual staus of a human beings, you have a problem in your hands.
For the Islamic point of view that you describe I won't say anything about it but I am sure even in Islam one can not equate disobying parets to killing.
Isn’t it ironic that many of these honour killings involve sexual violence as well. The families are concerned with ideas of ‘honour’ and so-called decent behaviour yet strangely think it’s ok to take part or turn a blind eye to this sickness:
**Banaz Mahmod, 20, was brutally raped and stamped on during a two-hour ordeal before being garotted.One of her killers, the Old Bailey was told, was 30-year-old Mohamad Hama, who had been recruited by Banaz’s father Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and his brother Ari, 51. **
Both were found guilty of murder last month. The shocking details of the killing came to light when Hama was secretly recorded talking to a friend in prison.
He admitted “slapping” and “f***ing” Banaz, who was subjected to degrading sex acts.
**Hama and his friend were heard laughing as he described how she was killed in her family home in Mitcham, South London, with Ari Mahmod “supervising”. **
Re: how many of you personally know of any honor killing ?
i was getting ready to type out a long post about another point in this thread but then i read that ^ and now im speechless... i heard about this case but i had no idea she had been raped. those men are totally vile for murdering her and stripping her of her dignity. i hope they rot in hell forever.
Re: how many of you personally know of any honor killing ?
[mod]Okay can we please stop attacking Mabrook for her POV? not once did i see her say it's okay to kill someone, but rather she provides an alternate, albeit unpopular, view into the mindset of parents like this.
I am not sure why people continue to refer to these murders as 'honor' killings. All of these killings were the result of very dysfuntional families and involved people who a) did not know how to control situations from the start b) reacted in violence because that is the only way they could deal with the situations.
Cases like these are the result of violence. Some individuals have no idea how else to deal with life, except with such violence.
And with the young girl, it was not about braids. She ran away from home various times, and was having issues at school as well. But her family , they had major problems from probably when she was born. Sometimes people think it's easy to say that females give a reason (somebody said), knowing full well what their families will expect - but kids dont rebel to such an extent unless there are problems in parenting to begin with.
Issues like this have much deeper roots. It's not about hairstyles. It's about a lack of proper parenting skills, communication, being able to adapt to new cultural settings, being able to raise kids according to ones one morals/beliefs and being able to deal effectively when they are having problems with those beliefs...being able to deal with problems effectively...so much more. Resorting to murder is just abnormal.
Re: how many of you personally know of any honor killing ?
salam everyone!! i didn't knew Hina Saleem, but i have some relatives who lives in the same city where she lived...before she was killed ...they told us about her. near their home there is a pub and they told us that every saturday night when they return home there was this pakistani girl in mini skirt, bra kind tops with a cigarette in one hand and a wine glass in the other hand...and she was really rude b'cuz my relative wear shalwar kameez and when she saw them she started talk (high pitched) with her friends and saying "i can't understand these pakis..if they are in an other country they should adjust them"...well they always ignored her and thay also told that a sunday morning they find her drunked sleeping outside of the pub!! plus she lived with her bf...
I am not sure why people continue to refer to these murders as 'honor' killings. All of these killings were the result of very dysfuntional families and involved people who a) did not know how to control situations from the start b) reacted in violence because that is the only way they could deal with the situations.
Cases like these are the result of violence. Some individuals have no idea how else to deal with life, except with such violence.
And with the young girl, it was not about braids. She ran away from home various times, and was having issues at school as well. But her family , they had major problems from probably when she was born. Sometimes people think it's easy to say that females give a reason (somebody said), knowing full well what their families will expect - but kids dont rebel to such an extent unless there are problems in parenting to begin with.
Issues like this have much deeper roots. It's not about hairstyles. It's about a lack of proper parenting skills, communication, being able to adapt to new cultural settings, being able to raise kids according to ones one morals/beliefs and being able to deal effectively when they are having problems with those beliefs...being able to deal with problems effectively...so much more. Resorting to murder is just abnormal.
Great post, Pixie.
On a more macro level, one of the theories that anthropologists use to classify various societies is that of the 'honor-based society' versus the 'dignity-based society.' This is not unproblematic and a lot of people would bring up the issue of cultural imperialism, etc. But I think to some extent it can be a useful way to examine our own attitudes toward other people, and to ask to what extent we value our perceived honor over the dignity of others----and asking what these terms mean for us. To what extent is freedom of conscience and therefore personal choice and expression more important than the image of a family or a family member? Within Islam, where do we draw the line between honoring the personal choices (and therefore dignity) of the individual versus the honor/image of our community, and what truly are the proper Islamic consequences of crossing that line (are they left in the hands of humans, and if so, do they involve physical punishment or just social isolation, or do we trust everything to God, etc.)?
I probably got too philosophical there. But I do agree with you that terminology is important and not something we can take for granted.
On a more macro level, one of the theories that anthropologists use to classify various societies is that of the 'honor-based society' versus the 'dignity-based society.' This is not unproblematic and a lot of people would bring up the issue of cultural imperialism, etc. But I think to some extent it can be a useful way to examine our own attitudes toward other people, and to ask to what extent we value our perceived honor over the dignity of others----and asking what these terms mean for us. To what extent is freedom of conscience and therefore personal choice and expression more important than the image of a family or a family member? Within Islam, where do we draw the line between honoring the personal choices (and therefore dignity) of the individual versus the honor/image of our community, and what truly are the proper Islamic consequences of crossing that line (are they left in the hands of humans, and if so, do they involve physical punishment or just social isolation, or do we trust everything to God, etc.)?
I probably got too philosophical there. But I do agree with you that terminology is important and not something we can take for granted.
Is it a specific anthropologist that you're referring too? If so, could you name him/her please?
Or do you know of a book/author that talks over this subject?
hi Farrah,
My first reaction was ‘jeez, my grad school days are so far behind me I can’t remember any of this stuff.’ I did a very quick web search and there is a little snippet on wikipedia under ‘honour’ (and yes, I know wikipedia isn’t the best source in the world, but hey, it’s a snapshot.) According to the wikipedia piece this is a concept that’s been kicked around in one form another for several hundred years, so I don’t think we can give a single modern anthropologist credit although you see the concept mentioned in many anthropology/sociologyy texts. The exact distinction is between cultures of honor and cultures of law, not dignity as I recalled above:
"Cultures of honour and cultures of law
One can contrast cultures of honour with cultures of law. In a culture of law there is a body of laws which must be obeyed by all, with punishments for transgressors. This requires a society with the structures required to enact and enforce laws. A culture of law incorporates an unwritten social contract: members of society agree to give up most of their rights to defend themselves and retaliate for injuries, on the understanding that transgressors will be apprehended and punished by society. From the viewpoint of anthropology, cultures of honour typically appear among nomadic peoples and herdsmen who carry their most valuable property with them and risk having it stolen, without having recourse to law enforcement or government. In this situation, inspiring fear forms a better strategy than promoting friendship; and cultivating a reputation for swift and disproportionate revenge increases the safety of one’s person and property. Thinkers ranging from Montesquieu to Steven Pinker have remarked upon the mindset needed for a culture of honour.
Cultures of honour therefore appear among the Bedouin, Scottish and English herdsmen of the Border country, and many similar peoples, who have little allegiance to a nationalgovernment; among cowboys, frontiersmen, and ranchers of the American West, where official law-enforcement often remained out of reach, as is famously celebrated in Westerns; among the plantation culture of the American South, and among aristocrats, who enjoy hereditaryprivileges that put them beyond the reach of codes of law. Cultures of honour also flourish in criminal underworlds and gangs, whose members carry large amounts of cash and contraband and cannot complain to the law if it is stolen.
Cultures of honour will often arise when three conditions[2]](Honour - Wikipedia) exist: 1) a lack of resources; 2) where the benefit of theft and crime outweighs the risks; and 3) a lack of sufficient law enforcement (such as in geographically remote regions). Historically cultures of honour exist in places where the economy is dominated by herding animals. In this situation the geography is usually remote since the soil can not support extensive sustained farming and thus large populations; the benefit of stealing animals from other herds is high since it is main form of wealth; and there is no central law enforcement or rule of law. However cultures of honour can also appear in places like modern inner city slums. The three conditions exist here as well: lack of resources (poverty); crime and theft have a high rewards compared to the alternatives (few); and law enforcement is generally lax or corrupt.[2]](Honour - Wikipedia)
Once a culture of honour exists, it is difficult for its members to make the transition to a culture of law; this requires that people become willing to back down and refuse to immediately retaliate, and from the viewpoint of the culture of honour, this tends to appear to be an unwise act reflecting weakness."
The majority of Pakistanis in the UK are generally from poorer backgrounds, they aren't as educated as other ethnic groups and are also more likely to be unemployed, this is the major difference between those in the UK and the US.
They also tend to be a lot more conservative and traditional than other Muslim communities such as Indian or Bengali Muslims. Bengalis also tend to be poorer and less educated but their culture is a little different, they aren't tribal (except for tiny pockets of non-Muslims) and they don't practise cousin marriage as widely (which of course there is nothing wrong with when consent is given by the kids involved but it can be the catalyst of family 'problems', girl saying 'no', dad or mum saying 'ok, ur off to Pakistan' or 'if u don't marry so and so ur going to get a beating etc'). It happens in other communities as well (there was a v.well known case over here involving a Kurdish girl) but Pakistanis are generally thought of as the most conservative Muslims.
My Mum's friend is a social worker and some of the stuff she would tell us was shocking, the sheer number of Pakistani girls who were suddenly pulled out of school before their GCSEs and put on a plane to Pakistan to get married, girls not being allowed to go to college or uni or out to work etc. Of course there are other cultures who do this but Pakistanis have the worst reputation for it.. There are soooo many Pakistani mothers in the UK who have been living here for 20/30 yrs and still can't even speak English cos their husbands or inlaws haven't let them learn.. Makes me sick...
I think this is wrong im a muslim girl who lives in the UK. I have done two degrees and now i am a teacher, my mum has lived in the UK for 25 years she has done her Alevels in the UK. My parents mashallah are very good and we have lot of freedom here. I am also married to someone from Pakistan (which is not my cousin). I have a daughter. Not all Pakistanis are the same so there no point in judging all pakistani in the UK to be the same because we are not. Mashallah i come from a very very wealthy family and we are all educated.
Re: how many of you personally know of any honor killing ?
^m33r, i also was born and live in the UK. my immediate family and most of my cousins are well educated too. BUT we are in the minority, I think you should acknowledge that.
it is a simple fact for example, pakistani's and banglasdeshi's are the most underachieving minorities in school. plus the points that Deeba made. yea, i live in in a nice part of the UK, i don't see this. but go to east london or many areas up north and it's really not the case.
when i was younger i went to a good school in part of london where there were a lot of asian girls - plenty of indians in the school; i think pakistani's were the least represented.
Re: how many of you personally know of any honor killing ?
^ Exactly. A few cases here and there don't change the facts that the majority are like this. Anyone who doesn't believe it can check the gov statistics, it's there in black and white..
Re: how many of you personally know of any honor killing ?
^deeba, most cases arent even reported in pakistan. So many girls here die everyday because of this evil way of thinking that girls should ONLY do what their parents demand. We hear of so many cases of child brides and forced marriages. its uncommon in rural areas in pakistan for women to even have a say in anything.
Re: how many of you personally know of any honor killing ?
i really don't get it .. what pattern are these communities following? to whom are they trying to prove their under-achievement and violent behavior?
and above all ... i so dont get it ... HOW IN THE WORLD DO SUCH PEOPLE GET A VISA AND STAY???
Re: how many of you personally know of any honor killing ?
^ I think 20/30yrs ago it was pretty easy to get a Visa to come and live in the UK, they needed workers back then and I guess they assumed the new immigrants would slowly integrate with the native British population, work hard and everyone would live happily ever after. The Indians have done really well whilst we've lagged wayyyyy behind..
I always think it's sad when I see Polish or other foreign workers come over and do the menial jobs like cleaning and they often take English classes in the evenings as well to try and better themselves so they can move further up the ladder whilst many Pakistanis and Bengalis just sit around at home living off benefits, thinking life is good just as they are..
How these ppl tend to get the visas nowadays is thru marriage.
good post!
i was so looking for the other side of the story!
but question being ... what did you and your family think of her murder? what was the attitude at your end, and in the community surrounding you?
well...we think the murder was not the only solution..but we can "understand" why her father did so...in italy the pakistani community is not very instruct as in england, hollend and other country..the majority of pakistani here are from gujrat and small towns (infact there are soo many women who didn't exit from their homes, they stay in italy just to renew the doc. and then they return in pakistan)...so when there is someone's daughter who does something wronge, against our culture and religion, the family feels humiliated infact everybody start to watch them from an other point of view....infact there are so many case that i know of daughters escaped from home and now their familys live segregate at home...BUT FROM THE CASES THAT I KNOW THE MAJORITY OF THE FAMILIES ARE WHO BEFORE CRITICIZED THE DAUGHTERS OF OTHER PEOPLE...
WELL, the hina's case was sooooooo used by the media against the musalmans, they presented her as a great girl with lots of friends, full of life and ecc.ec.. and painted the islamic community rappresented by her father as villains who repress their women, who acts to be good people but they have violent spirit, ecc.ec..
b'cuz of the media also the common people's point of view changed soo much!! for exemple my father's italian friend started to ask him if he was thinking to kill me and my sister just b'cuz we wear jeans!!! well...that period was really bad for all the community...
my opinion is that the girls and boys of this first generation in italy should do some sacrifices to have a better future for them, for the community, for the other generation...we are the generation who has to creat the contact between pakistani and italians but this contect has to show the positive aspects to each other...for ex. we should not tell to the italians that the arrange marriage are forced but show them the positive aspect of it and we should not divulge in pakistanis that the italians try to take off our roots...
I did a very quick web search and there is a little snippet on wikipedia under ‘honour’ (and yes, I know wikipedia isn’t the best source in the world, but hey, it’s a snapshot.) According to the wikipedia piece this is a concept that’s been kicked around in one form another for several hundred years, so I don’t think we can give a single modern anthropologist credit although you see the concept mentioned in many anthropology/sociologyy texts. The exact distinction is between cultures of honor and cultures of law, not dignity as I recalled above: