How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

I don't know what the definition of 'physical' is here. I am an Aunt, and I do pick up and peck my niece and nephews whenever I see them. What can I do - tell their parents that make sure your kids don't jump on me every time I walk through the front door? But so far, hugging your niece and nephews is not an annual Eid day event in our family.

Long long time ago, I briefly worked with Child Protection teams for Research purposes, and yes we came across some horrific cases where the children were abused by their own fathers, grandfathers and siblings. There were also some cases where Mothers simply wouldn't trust their children's biological fathers, i.e never leave the child alone with the dad. Obviously, traumatic childhood experiences of mothers were taken into consideration. Then you also have cases of abuse that take place in nurseries and schools by staff members.

So just remember that there is self indulgent paranoia and then there is having awareness and taking all the necessary measures for your child's safety. Instead of being overly paranoid of everyone and anyone around your child - as some things are truly out of your watch - the best strategy is to ensure that the child is absolutely 100% aware of the level of appropriateness when it comes to affection - and there should be same rules for both male and female child. And the child has this confidence that he/she can share everything and anything with you, and you will protect them, respect, understand and believe whatever they tell you and keep them safe - no what anyone says to threaten them. No matter how close or important that bad person is that they want to talk about. Of course, don't leave them unattended with strangers and relatives you don't trust.

As with relatives, use your common sense and know there's a difference between brushing your hand on child's head, tapping their cheeks or giving them them a little peck on their hand in a certain context, and holding them so tight and smooching the crap out of them. I've seen people do that, and to be honest, that does look pretty inappropriate.

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

THIS

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

By the way, this thread reminded of a story shared by a very senior academic who was children's social worker for a very long time. She said there was one point in her career that ever third child sexual abuse case that came her way involved child's biological father. She was so shaken by up by studying those extremely disturbing cases and working on them that at one point, she got so paranoid that she would go home and literally ask her children that 'did Daddy ever try to this or that'. Obviously she now looks back and laughs at this, but it's interesting how some things can scare you and shake up your beliefs so terribly that you start doubting everything and everyone around you.

As with uncles and aunts here, don't take personal offence in anything (you know your family dynamics more than anyone here). but just consider the fact there is ample amount of data that proves that vast majority of children are actually abused by their own family members - close family members! A lot of social work researchers are fighting against the whole idea of 'stranger danger' to highlight the fact that it is far more important to watch your children's safety at home.

Point is - family or no family - young girl or boy - there needs to be clear line on what's appropriate and what's not .

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

There is an Indian movie on this subject... Highway

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

i know what you mean. even i was thinking about how my mamu and my dad or nana never ever ever did any thing wrong to us girls. sadly, there ARE evil men out there who sexually abuse their loved ones. men and women, both do it

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

after they reach a certain age. maybe 10. it is not because the dad may do something wrong, it is so that the girl knows that sitting on any man's lap is not appropriate.

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

I guess each family has to set limits according to their own family dynamics. At the end of the day, you are the best judge. In our case we feel comfortable leaving kids with grandparents. If someone does not feel comfortable, they should not.

Key is to keep the communication going with kids. Dont just leave them with someone and forget it. I am not saying that dont trust anyone but dont blind trust. Now there are times, when we have to leave them for short period dues to various reasons (dr appointment etc), we always talk to kid about how was their stay, what did they do? who was around in the manner that they don't feel being investigated.

Also, if you teach them about keeping distance from their childhood, they start doing it unconsciously and without you telling them all the time.

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

I was hoping that this much was understood in this discussion.
Each family has a different dynamic, we've seen that illustrated in this thread where some folks feel that kissing and cuddling is too "mushy" while others think that it's perfectly okay. I don't think that anybody here is suggesting that you change that.....just educate your child when they are old enough about "appropriate contact" and keep the line of communication going and open in a way that nobody is subject to being accused.

Most of all, keep your own eyes and ears open for telltale signs all round.

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

10/12 is still quite young to me.. I wouldn't see anything wrong with my future daughters being on dad's lap at that age or getting a hug or peck on the cheek as they're getting older (I still do that now when saying goodbye).. My own father is naturally affectionate so maybe that's why I see things a bit differently.. I'd want my daughter to obviously differentiate between 'any' man and those in our immediate family.. I wouldn't want her to grow up being suspicious of every male or thinking every guy is potentially capable of abuse as I don't think that's healthy for her (or true).. I do realise abuse happens within families as well but as I've said if I believed there was any potential for that happening they wouldn't be around me or my kids full-stop.. I personally find the talk of girls needing to cover up infront of their brothers and other immediate family members for those reasons quite distasteful as well..

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

again...each case needs to be addressed individually. if you take 5 children, each aged 12, you may find significant differences in their levels of maturity.
my daughter is 12 and easily passes for 17....she's 5'5" so only an inch and a half shorter than me now. I have no issues with her receiving and showing affection to her father or her uncles but I have to admit that seeing her in any man's lap would make me slightly uneasy....more so because she is so lanky and it would look odd, I guess.

I was brought up with the philosophy that when sons and daughters "are able to match your gaze" then they are old enough to be taught respect and modesty in the way they carry themselves. This was a very broad lesson and included things like not sitting with your legs outstretched towards another person, sitting on the floor if someone elder has chosen to do so, etc. All I did was started this teaching a bit earlier because I noticed that my daughter was more mature than others her age.

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

i saw a different case - my cousin's daughter was 12 and she had a habit of hugging every male adult as a greeting - on the top of she looked mature beyond her age and it came as real uncomfortable to look when she did that - so I talked to my cousin you know what I was read as pervert to have looked at her from that angle!

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

It's odd how people will turn the tables on YOU and make accusations when all you did was consider HER safety.
How did you handle the situation after that?

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

Agree with the first part of your post about maturity.. I also wouldn't want my future daughter on any random guy's lap but a hug or similar with friends or family would be fine with me..

In our household we were very informal.. I haven't been taught that legs outstretched towards another person is inappropriate or sitting on the floor if an elder has chosen to etc. I often sat with my feet up on the sofa (regardless of whoever was there) and even called some of my younger aunts by their first names (my younger sibling and cousins always only used my first name as well).. As I mentioned my own father is affectionate by nature and one of my grandads is like that as well (he always gives a hug when we arrive and leave) so that's probably why I'm quite laid back about it..

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

Wow Muzna, 5'5 at 12, your daughter is tall mA..

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters’ interaction with Uncles etc

We were never made to feel that the rules are “formal” behaviour, just courtesy; cuz it’s disrespectful to put your feet towards someone.
And if an elder is sitting on the floor then we should not be sitting at a higher spot so we should first offer our own seat which may have been on a sofa or chair and if they refuse it then join them on the floor. Again, just respect.
I never found these rules to be “stifling” and they never created distance between us.

Now I’m wondering how many other “rules” there are that we have never been taught…:cb:

I know…

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

^It's disrespectful in your eyes to have your feet towards a person but it wouldn't be noticed in our family.. I would offer a seat but if the elder declined I wouldn't join on the floor because I wasn't brought up to believe it was disrespectful..

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

Is it proper for a 11 yr old girl to sit on her father's lap? Obviously I have no say in this but I kind of cringed when I saw this.
He is her father but she's almost at her teenage yrs and she is there already as in she's starting to develop. The grandmother and the cousins close to her didn't say anything so what say do I have in this.

The parents are divorced and it was an abusive marriage where the father was possibly not straight(desi gays don't come out or they would be lynched by conservative family members). The child was only with her father and his side of the family at the time, the mother was not present. Yes him being gay or straight is not an issue regarding whether his daughter should sit in his lap at that age but the mother is a close friend and had told me that they did not have a normal marriage in terms of intimacy, they were roommates. Plus, the father did something when the girl was a little baby that brought up alarm bells in her mind. He got aroused when the baby was sucking on his finger to keep her from crying.

So seeing that they had a sexless marriage ever since the wedding except during the conception of the child for the sake of the in laws wanting a grandchild, the marriage was far from how two straight people are in marriage.

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters’ interaction with Uncles etc

How strange.. I’m starting to think that mothers are partly to blame for male family members who might be sex pests.. Why would you want people like that around you anyway? Esp without ever bringing it up let alone reporting it.. Seems that the answer to many people is just to keep the victims out of the way.. so what about other ppls kids potentially becoming victims, does that not matter?

Btw the use of ‘inapproriate’ and ‘disrespectful’ in regards to everyday interactions between fathers and daughters is obviously dependent on culture.. In Islam it’s not generally seen as inappriate or disrespectful for a father to give his daughter a hug or kiss her on the forehead or cheek..

 'Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allah have mercy on him) was asked:

Is it permissible for a man to kiss his daughter when she has grown up and passed the age of puberty, whether she is married or not, and whether the kissing is on her hand or mouth or so on? If she kisses him in those places, what is the ruling?

He replied (may Allah have mercy on him):

There is nothing wrong with a man kissing his daughter, whether she is older or younger, without desire so long as that is on her cheek once she has grown up, because it is proven from Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) that he kissed his daughter ‘Aa’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) on her cheek. And because kissing on the mouth may lead to provocation of sexual desire, so it is better and safer not to do that. Similarly, a daughter may kiss her father on his nose or head, without desire. But if there is desire then that is haraam for all concerned, so as to avoid temptation and so as to block means that may lead to immorality. And Allah is the source of strength.
End quote from Fataawa Islamiyyah, 3/78, 79.

Source: Ruling on a man kissing his adult daughter and hugging her - islamqa.info

(Am not normally a fan of that site as I find their answers tend to be on the stricter more conservative side than the average Hanafi.. Sunnipath is down though)

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

I guess if we all followed similar rules of caution then even other ppls kids would be safe, no?

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Re: How do you go about managing daughters' interaction with Uncles etc

^No.

I find it ethically disturbing to suggest it's ok to allow someone you know might be predatory to stay or live in the same home.. No ifs and buts about it, they should be reported imo.. If a wife or other family hushes it up or simply tries to keep tabs on the kids that's not the answer.. as well as being highly impractical..

I want my kids to live 'normal' lives, not ones will filled with fear and wrapped in cotton wool.. I don't believe that any man is a potential molester lol.. As a child I went swimming with other kids, I went on school trips etc.. To me that's a normal and healthy childhood, even if it might only be seen favourably by the minority in our culture.. I think we almost 'apologise' if men behave inappropriately and feel that expecting others to adapt or change rather than confronting them is a major problem.. It's an idea which makes me extremely uncomfortable..

I have no respect for families who think one of their male members might have such 'inclinations' but choose to hush it up and/or expect the potential victims to have to change..