The points that you have mentioned specially from Asoole kaafi, at least i can talk about them since i have read it are 100% true and they are the foundation of this cult of koofa. Rafizis later on started these books after expelled from Hijaz and other big cities so they can run an underground moment against Islam. The same tactic that St. Paul used with Christianity...here we have another jew Ibne Saba who pretended to be muslim and tried to destroyed it with this moment. The name of Ahle bai't is just use as a mount point for the moment as it was the most suitable subject for their risings.
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Zein , some very interesting and mind blowing points there. Now anyone using these books e.s.p Asoole Kaafi and regarding them as authentic, has seriously got a problem. Can one be a muslim by following such books ????
As salaam,
i really dont want to bash anyone and i do believe we should engage in meaningful Islamic dialogue which facilitates understanding.
However two things i find very disturbing about certain Shia’s (not all engage in such acts) first is their maligning of many Sahaba (may God be pleased with them) and secondly their insistence on self-flagellation during Muharram/Ashura. The self torture and blood letting many of them engage in are truly horrific, see:
If they want to spill their blood why dont they donate it ( i live in a country where there is often a shortage of blood, i have donated blood on occasion too).
Many people are unaware that the vast majority of Muslims do not self harm however the press reports on these occasions do not differentiate and imply that all Muslims cut themselves and their children up. There was one such article in a British paper today which we had to complain about…
I have always been taught to self harm is highly Un-Islamic that is why smoking and drinking are not permitted…
My apologies if i have said anything untoward or simplistic.
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*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
Zein, I am not a scholer but I do know some facts
any hadith that goes against Quran is rejected. Imam Ali (as) or any other Imam can never be God...we believe that Quran is complete but its not in the same order .. (tell me the first surah of Quran and is it actually the first surah in Quran? ) and yes Imam Mehdi a.s. will bring the Quran compiled by Imam Ali a.s.
I dont know about some of these books but yes Asool e kaafi is one of our hadith book (but we dont believe any book to be 100% authentic except for the Holy Quran)
some of the points you wrote dont make any sense at all...ie Imams are God nauzubillah or that ayesha was not american or european lady...c'mon i doubt these are shia books
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Sheraz CT
okay first regarding Quran
The Qur'an is neither temporal nor newly created, but is eternal. Falsehood does not approach it from before it or behind it. It is the primary source of all the Muslims' tenets of faith, their rites and rules of conduct. So this thing about order does not hold water. I have even heard some (EXtreme) Shiaz as saying that one Saparah is missing too. And i have done a lot of research into this matter, so as to why there is a disagreement!! and let me tell u that views and opinions of their Imams are the primary source jurisprudence!!!!!. Try digging into it. I have some books i can recommend if you need any help.
Authenticity
Fair enough you dont take a book to be 100 % authentic, BUT surely some points mentioned above have got nothing to do with authenticity!!!, its share hatred. I just dont understand how a book such as the one mentioned can become a book "Hadees book" . There are things you cannot neglect. Have you read Asoole kaafi. Just what have you got to say about it ? esp. the points mentioned above ? And how do u define authenticity ???? is it when its something written by ur Imams ?
[QUOTE] Originally posted by delight_*: *
brother zein
these books of ours dont have "Sahih" in front of them so it means there is a chance that there can be something wrong in it
the author is not God or Imam he might have made a mistake
and your"sahihs" have so much wrong in it and thy are called "SaHIh" how stupid is that ?
i dont like to critisize but u started it
and if u want i can give u many many many wrong things from your "SAHIHS"
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Yaar its not about right or wrong !!!. Have a look at "Asoole kaafi". You wont find things that are wrong or u can dispute!!!. Infact some of the things that are there, are spewing nothing but hatred and infact in some instances some interesting revelations!!!!!!!!. With respect to our books you will be able to find direct/indirect references to Quran. But in "Asoole kaafi" I HAVE NEVER been able to find out any LINK to Quran.
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*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
assalam oalikum
good topic zain...................i have been reading these books and have seen many contradictions .................thier concept specially that of tahreef e quran is what makes them quite different from muslim ummah.....how ever i must admitt that present dy shia themself do not know about these facts ......they r inly brainwashed with the alleged atrocities on ahl e bait(it is to be debated on who is ahl e bait).etc............if they (shias)give some thought to ur points my be the sufferings of ummah be reduced........
salam
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Yaar these are just some questions tat popped up while i was reading these books. I hope I can get some good answers. I am not trying to have a SUNI Vs Shia fight here, but instead would just like Shias on this forum to look into these points and see it all for themselves !!
bro...its not us....the Quran has been attacked. you wanna be dumb and watch only. its ur choice...but having a lot of love to see Ummah united these books of shiaz disturb muslims and the worse is when they do taqqiyya on such big and open matters. This is not justice with deen at all. Islam is nothing hidden but an open truth.
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Google
Try reading "Asoole kaafi" , then u will undersatnd what the brother is saying. After reading it you will have these questions as well !!!! , cuase some of the findingz i found were very disturbing!!!!
No in my view its not simplistic or untoward to point out such things
I don’t agree with beating yourself to the extent of bleeding or bruising. In my jamaat, on Ashura and during the 10 days of Muharram they do organise and encourage blood donation where anyone can donate. But beating is limited to very few “joshilay” people to begin with anyway. But not in my Jamaat. They are usually found in the Punjabi Jamaat
Last I knew it was wrong of anyone to curse the Sahabas. But where we differ from our Sunni bretheren is that we do question certain questionable actions of Sahabi’s. That is not the same as cursing.
I have personally heard the term "lanaat allah bil ajmaeen" or something like that for the khalifahs before hazrat Ali RA. basically anytime they will take the name of abu bakr, umar or usman RA they would use this title...i.e. god's curse be on all of them etc etc.
sounded kinda strange. so i can vouch that this does go on. Most of my shia pals find that distasteful but have told me that they do have people in their family that think its not only appropriate but is liked.
What is punjabi jamaat and other jamaat , are they subsects of Shias?
I agree with Fraudz's observations. I visited a shia discussion forum and there everybody was using words, (LA) Not Los angeles but Lanaatalla alaih, infront of names of Umar, Bbu bakar, Usman etc
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*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
Zein, I am not a scholer but I do know some facts
any hadith that goes against Quran is rejected. Imam Ali (as) or any other Imam can never be God...we believe that Quran is complete but its not in the same order .. (tell me the first surah of Quran and is it actually the first surah in Quran? ) and yes Imam Mehdi a.s. will bring the Quran compiled by Imam Ali a.s.
I dont know about some of these books but yes Asool e kaafi is one of our hadith book (but we dont believe any book to be 100% authentic except for the Holy Quran)
some of the points you wrote dont make any sense at all...ie Imams are God nauzubillah or that ayesha was not american or european lady...c'mon i doubt these are shia books
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So the Holy Prophet (SAW) was lying (nauzoobillah) when during the last sermon he testified as to having conveyed the message to the people to its completion? Astaghfirullah. And of course since all Muslims know that Prophets do ONLY as they are commanded by Allah (SWT), so that means Allah (SWT) was lying (nauzoobillah)? Did Allah (SWT) give only a preview of Islam and actually completing it NOT through Huzoor (SAW) but through someone coming later? Also maybe you guys believe that since the Quran is not in order, all that promise about Allah (SWT) keeping the Book and His Deen intact personally is also a farce? Please Sheraz CT...I would love to know more about your religion...
A perfect example how these shiaz are trained to distract the mind of the opponent in a discussion whenever they are caught red handed.
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obviously you dont know ur own history...caught red handed? puhleeze
Prophet (pbuh) actually did have some sahabas who were not munafiqs..Owais Kurni who never met the Prophet (pbuh) got the news that Prophet (pbuh) lost one of his teeth in the battle of Ohad...He had so much for the Masoom Prophet that he broke one of his tooth, then he thought maybe this is not the same tooth Prophet (pbuh) lost and he broke second and then all of them....one thing i want to point out is that in the arab during and before the time of Prophet (pbuh) it was considered bad if you cried or hurt urself...so these usual munafiq sahabas find out about this and they came to tell Prophet(pbuh)...they were expecting Prophet (pbuh) to issue a fatwa and to get mad...instead Prophet (pbuh) said if any of you want "bakhshish" and to go to heaven then go ask Owair Kurni to pray for you..Haaaaa
next time do your ur homework before you uttar garbage..not so smooth my boy
So the Holy Prophet (SAW) was lying (nauzoobillah) when during the last sermon he testified as to having conveyed the message to the people to its completion? Astaghfirullah. And of course since all Muslims know that Prophets do ONLY as they are commanded by Allah (SWT), so that means Allah (SWT) was lying (nauzoobillah)? Did Allah (SWT) give only a preview of Islam and actually completing it NOT through Huzoor (SAW) but through someone coming later? Also maybe you guys believe that since the Quran is not in order, all that promise about Allah (SWT) keeping the Book and His Deen intact personally is also a farce? Please Sheraz CT...I would love to know more about your religion...
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my religion is the religion of Allah and Prophet Mohummad (pbuh) and Wasi of the Prophet (pbuh)...there is a hadith by Prophet (pbuh) that I am leaving behind two things...Quran and My Ahlebait...now if we believed that Quran is not right then why would we believe in that hadith...I said Quran is not in the same order..so thats two different things...Imam Ali (as) compiled the Quran and when he wanted ur khalifas to use that Quran they disagreed...Imam Ali (as) chose to keep it with Himself because He did not want this Holy book become like the other books that Prophets brought with them...Imam Mehdi (as) who is the 12th and last Imam will bring the Quran compiled by Imam Ali (as)
I have personally heard the term "lanaat allah bil ajmaeen" or something like that for the khalifahs before hazrat Ali RA. basically anytime they will take the name of abu bakr, umar or usman RA they would use this title...i.e. god's curse be on all of them etc etc.
sounded kinda strange. so i can vouch that this does go on. Most of my shia pals find that distasteful but have told me that they do have people in their family that think its not only appropriate but is liked.
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i am not sure which shias you have been hanging out with fraudia..just remember a munafiq is worse then a kaafir
sheraz bhai dont even answer them back u know y cause aruging ith FOOLS killed your heart
and to the ones who have read thier books would u like to tell me that every thing in your books is right ?
do u want me to give u some exampls of things that are more than wrong in your "SAHIHS"?
I have personally heard the term "lanaat allah bil ajmaeen" or something like that for the khalifahs before hazrat Ali RA. basically anytime they will take the name of abu bakr, umar or usman RA they would use this title...i.e. god's curse be on all of them etc etc.
sounded kinda strange. so i can vouch that this does go on. Most of my shia pals find that distasteful but have told me that they do have people in their family that think its not only appropriate but is liked.
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Fraudz I am not saying this situation does not exist. I know it does occur especially in Indo-Pak. But I do not think it is right just as I don’t think zanjeerzani is right. These actions are not part of Shia beliefs and Fiqh. This isn’t what Shiaism is about. Shia scholars do not condone this. These actions do not reflect the actual beliefs of the majority (or the minority) and yet they are taken and blown wholly out of proportion so much so that we end up with fatwas of Shias being “wajibul qatl” simply based on the actions of very very few people in comparison to the rest of the people. That is where Sunnis are wrong. I mean its like judging all Pakistanis based on the occurrence of honor killings.
Having said that, I have to say that cursing Yazid and the killers of Imam Hussain, his family and his followers is part of our Ashura A’maals alongwith spending the day in some type of Ibadah including reciting Quran and additional prayers.
There are no Shia sub-sects. Like there are Iranian, Lebanese, Chinese, Indian Shias, there are also Punjabi Shias. Although there is NO difference in basic beliefs each commemorates Muharram in their own language and in their own particular traditional style. In Indo-Pak, Zakiri in Sraeki and zanjeerzani is usually associated with Punjabi’s.
my religion is the religion of Allah and Prophet Mohummad (pbuh) and Wasi of the Prophet (pbuh)...there is a hadith by Prophet (pbuh) that I am leaving behind two things...Quran and My Ahlebait...now if we believed that Quran is not right then why would we believe in that hadith...I said Quran is not in the same order..so thats two different things...Imam Ali (as) compiled the Quran and when he wanted ur khalifas to use that Quran they disagreed...Imam Ali (as) chose to keep it with Himself because He did not want this Holy book become like the other books that Prophets brought with them...Imam Mehdi (as) who is the 12th and last Imam will bring the Quran compiled by Imam Ali (as)
hope its clear now
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Owais Qarni R.A's waqia is haq and there is no doubt about that...but he was asked to make dua for the bakhsish of the Ummah and both Hazrat Ali R.A and Omar R.A went to yemen to meet him. There is no dispute reported. Thats for sure fabricated by Early Shia scholars who wrote books like Asool e kaafi and others.
Regarding the hadith you mentioned above...the hadith is that I am leaving two thing behind me ...Quran and my Sunnah...not Ahle Bait.
kuch khuda ka khauf karo. Prophet SAW was against any kind of Monarchy or favouritism...he has taught us that no one is better among you but the one who is pious. Even Hussain R.A's shadaat is the biggest evidence of the Islamic democracy. Since Yazeed was not elected but was imposed on Ummah by his Father thus the jihad was fard against him. Hussain showed us the path for the ummah till the day of judgement that there is no favouritism or anything like that but the Taqwa. If Yazeed was Muttaqi and was elected by Shoora Hussain should have taken his bait. This is **** to say that Hussain or any of the Ahle bait were after the power/khilafah. They were the family of Ali who is the Shah-e-Wilayat and the door of knowledge, they didn't want anything from this world. And regarding the order of the Quran.....dear Quran itself says that Allah has taken the responsiblity to save it and there could never be a single word change in the book. And you can see Allah's claim in real that after 1400 years u can't find any difference in Quran from East to West. This is the miracle of Quran. If the order or compilation was incorrect maazallah how could Allah let it spread and all of the muslim have been reciting it for centuries. Omer and Usman sure have done a great job and Allah approved it with the above mentioned evidence. Allah's hujjat is right there but the munafiqeen will never learn since Allah has sealed their hearts. There is nothing hidden in Islam...u guys come up with something written after over hundred years in the underground moment and which majority of muslims and neutral historian reject because of falsehood and flaws in the stories.
Ahl-e-Tasheeh, I will no more interest myself in your affairs...You are all so smart and well read, but your beliefs are too contrary the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (SAW)...May Allah (SWT) guide you and us...Ameen, Summa Ameen...:)
beta meri baat gol matt ker jaa’o..Hazrat Owais Kerni broke all of his teeth because he got the news that Prophet (pbuh) lost one of His tooth in the battle of Ohad..so he broke all of his teeth..ur munafiq khalifa did the same thing you guys are doing now…they came to tell on him to the Prophet (pbuh)..instead they got a slap on their face when Prophet (pbuh) told them if you want bakshish, go to heaven then go to Owais and have him pray for you…read this a few more times and hopefully you will get the point..i doubt it though
now the other dumb point you made in this dumb post of urs…first of tell me where did i say that Imam Hussain (ra) was after power? ..also who would be more pious after Prophet then Imam Ali (as)…did you not read that Hadith by Prophet (pbuh) : O Ali! You hold in relation to me the same position as Harun held in relation to Musa except that there will be no prophet after me
how come he didnt say this to abu bakr or umar or usman..because He (pbuh) knew they werent worth it
Prophet (pbuh) loved Imam Ali (as) like a son because Imam Ali (as) really deserved that love…yet ur so called ahle sunnah fought two wars against Imam Ali (as)..thank god its in ur books or u would have denied that too
..also who would be more pious after Prophet then Imam Ali (as)…did you not read that Hadith by Prophet (pbuh) : O Ali! You hold in relation to me the same position as Harun held in relation to Musa except that there will be no prophet after me