Dear Fellow beings..
I was wondering that after the return of christ how will we recognize him. … What the religion says about it..
rest in Peace
Why the hell ya dnt answer...
Dear lucifer,
Here is the answer, according to our Muslim believes, it is being told that when Hazrat Imaam Mehndi won't succeed in defeating "dajal's" army, he will pray along with Muslim jamayat in Masjid-e Nabwi in Madina shareef.While he will be praying Hazrat Isa (Jesus) alai-he salaam will land in front of Masjid-e Nabwi, along with four angels surrounding him and a sword in his hand.(This sword will be used to kill dajal)
Masooma
(this was a short driscription, for further details ask me again)
[This message has been edited by Masooma (edited July 01, 2000).]
Salam Masooma
Sis I have few questions. Please be patient and take your time in replying them.
Before starting any debate I would like to clear few points.
Islam says that when you talk to others who are different in opinion then start the discussion with the common things first. So for now leaving everything behind, the only tool that seems to be common between us is the existence of God and the Holy Quran. Agreed Y/N?
So whatever we will converse, Quranic references will top the priority. Ok?
Regarding Quran let me tell you few things, whatever translation we will quote should be addressed without adding brackets, so that it may not derail the readers. (thou you may quote any relevant Hadith to support your idea.) Furthermore, to avoid confusion, my reference verses are numbered ~ “Bismillah a’rahman’ir raheem” as verse ONE.
Least but not last, the discussion should not loose the path. Stay on one point, finish it before moving to the other.
[quote]
**
Masooma says:
"Here is the answer, according to our Muslim believes, it is being told that when Hazrat Imaam Mehndi won't succeed in defeating "dajal's" army, he will pray along with Muslim jamayat in Masjid-e Nabwi in Madina shareef.While he will be praying Hazrat Isa (Jesus) alai-he salaam will land in front of Masjid-e Nabwi, along with four angels surrounding him and a sword in his hand.(This sword will be used to kill dajal)"
**
[/quote]
Now the questions regarding your reply, above.
A ::: about JESUS
Q1. I need to know references from Quran where it says that Jesus ascended to sky, alive, physically to Allah?
Q2. Where in the Quran it says that Jesus will descend from sky, alive, physically, with angles or as the scenario you sketched?
Q3. What “status” and “task” would he be assigned at his second advent?
B ::: about IMAM MEHDI
Q4. Despite of having perfect teaching and the perfect religion, Why there is a need of Imam Mehdi? What is the need of him, when his failure is already destined?
Q5. Who would that Iman be, will he be an ordinary human appointed by Allah or will he be elected by general election of Majlis-e-shoora? Will he be assigned any task? Will he receive any revelation from Allah?
Q6. Is there any indication of such Imam in Quran?
Q7. Is it obligatory for Muslims to believe in him and why?
C ::: about Dajjal
Q8. What is that dajjal, please elaborate?
For now we will discuss the first three questions, as you may like, will discuss the others on the same thread or another. Please take your time.
wa'salam
::: [email protected] :::
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited July 02, 2000).]
But Dear fellows,
I've asked that If some one comes to us and says tous that he is jesus christ, or imam mehdi . how will we believe that he is tright .. what will be the proof od it.
And the things that Zlim asked is also have some cvalid points in it that where it is written in quran that Jesus was lifted above the seventh sky with his physical existence... Plz let me know .. it might help me to find the right path.
Rust in Peace
No offence to anyone
Asalaam alaikum wrt wb,
You can read all about this information here, from the book, Signs of the Last Hour: http://members.home.net/arshad/qiyaama.html
Regarding Zalim’s post, Islam is not only the Quran, but the Quran and authentic Sunnah. The one that denies the Sunnah, is in fact denying verses in the Quran such as this one.
Quran 4:80
He who obeys the Apostle obeys Allah: but if any turn away We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).
In fact, no where in the Quran will you find how to preform the prayer, how to preform the hajj even. These are all taken from the Sunnah, and alhumdullilah this has been preserved. To see the exact references from the Sunnah on how to preform the prayers read the book, The Prophet’s Prayer Described.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/prayer/albaani/prayer_1.html
If you have any questions you can email me directly.
Wasalaam,
Arshad http://members.home.net/arshad
Dear Sir ,
About Quran .. God has promised that there would be no change in it till eternity.. Where as in case of sunnah there isn;t any fixed text. About Quran , God has promised thay no a single word will be chnaged.. About sunnah there is no evidence than it has been smae over this long period of time. .. about sehi bukhari, Imam bukhari only quoted those hadiis whos sanad were right. he did not omitted or added any hadis by himself on the basis of his intellgience...
So plz leave sunnah out of here.. Better prove it from Quran only ..
I'll be grateful...
bhaloo jee… salam aur walakum salam...
First of all I am not a denier of Hadith… I just wanted to start a conversation based on Quran FIRST, hadith is its implication and details… the basic idea “MUST” be present in Quran for Hadith’s existence and its authenticity other wise the Hadith is considered ‘dahif & gair-mustanid’. Like the examples you gave for hajj and salat, the basic ideas are already present in Quran, hadith just elaborated them.
Moreover there are Hadiths which one party considered authentic and the other, the opposite… so that’s why I wanted to start a debate on Quran first, thou one may support his/her reference with an authentic Hadith..
Is that clear now??
Asalam-u-alaikum
Q1. I need to know references from Quran where it says that Jesus ascended to sky, alive, physically to Allah?
-Surah 4:157,158 says,
“And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus Son of Mary, Allah’s messenger–They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain, But Allah took him up unto Himself…”
The normal explanation is that God put someone else on the cross and took Jesus to heaven. Judas is probably the most suggested person for who died in Jesus’ place. No historical evidence is given. It is believed because the Quran states it as the truth!
Q2. Where in the Quran it says that Jesus will descend from sky, alive, physically…
-Dear brother, the Quran does not explicitly state that Jesus will return again to the earth. It is a doctrine that is developed in the traditions of Islam (the Hadith). Here are the two Quran verses used to support the doctrine of his return:
“There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them --”
Holy Quran,Surah 4:159
“And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): Therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but Follow ye Me: this is the straight way”.
Holy Quran,Surah 43:61
From these verses and with other traditions the Islamic version of the return of Jesus will look like this. After being taken to heaven to escape crucifixion, Jesus will appear at the end of time as a sign that it is the Last hour. He will descend by resting his hands on the wings of two or four angels. (I’m sorry but i have heard one Imaam say two angels and another imaam say four, so it is undecided.)
Q3. What “status” and “task” would he be assigned at his second advent?
-He will invite the whole world to become Muslim including Christians and Jews, He will kill the anti-Christ, He will break the cross, kill all the swine, end all wars, and will become a judge. He will marry, have children, perform the pilgrimage to Mecca, die after 40 years and be buried beside Muhammad in Medina. His time on the earth will mark a period of abundance on the earth and all religions will end except Islam.
Now lets start with questions regarding Hazrat Imaam Mehndi.
Q4. Despite of having perfect teaching and the perfect religion, Why there is a need of Imam Mehdi? What is the need of him, when his failure is already destined?
-As a promise it is mentioned frankly in the Holy Qur’an :
“And certainly we wrote in the book after the reminder that (as for) the land, My righteous servants shall inherit the earth”. (Chap 21:105)
When Imaam Mehndi will appear to the world,Islam will become an international religion and other religions will disappear. Also in the Holy Quran it is written that one of the relics of His Holy existence is above point:
“It is he Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion, that he may make it overcome all of the religions, though the polytheists may be reluctant” (61:9)
As you know, Allah end Naboowat on Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w) and began Imaamat.In many religions there is an expectation for a savior to come and help the release from injustice. In Islam it is ‘Mahdawai’ which has a great international philosophy, because Islam is an international religion (Masha-Allah). Yes, we know that he will not succeed in defeating “dajal”, but thats not the purpose he will be sent, his mission is to Rule with justice, spread the name of Allah!.And in the Holy Quran it is mentioned:
“And certainly we wrote in the book after the reminder that (as for) the land, My righteous servants shall inherit the earth”. 21:105
Expectation and waiting for Imam Mahdi(as) has a longer history than Islam. It does not only relate to a specific race, region, or religion.
Also in the Holy Quran it is said:
“Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as he made those before them rulers, and that he will most certainly establish for them their religion which he has chosen for them,
and that he will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve me, not associating aught with me, and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the transgressors” (24:55)
and also in the Holy Quran:
“And we desired to bestow a favor upon those who were deemed week in the land, and to make them the Imams (Leaders), and to make them the heirs.” (28:5)
The day Imaam Mehndi appears to this world, the Prophet of Islam (SAW) calls that day, the day of light and human dignity.He said :
“ Hazrat Al Mahdi (as) will come in a situation that diversity and degradation among the people is so high that the world will be ruined. He will come and preserve humanity from damage and corruption. Then God will enrich peoples hearts with faith and love”
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
Your next question
Q5. Who would that Iman be, will he be an ordinary human appointed by Allah or will he be elected by general election of Majlis-e-shoora? Will he be assigned any task? Will he receive any revelation from Allah?
-Imaam Mehndi (sw) is not a thought of mere sitting and waiting, not a future telling, but he is a true reality, a special personality who himself expects his appearance. He will be living among the people,an ordinary looking human being. After Hazrat Isa kill "dajal, he will pray behind the Imam and assist him in his task to spread the name of Allah throughout the world.
Q6. Is there any indication of such Imam in Quran?
-Yes there is. I will restate the verses here:
“And certainly we wrote in the book after the reminder that (as for) the land, My righteous servants shall inherit the earth”. 21:105
“Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as he made those before them rulers, and that he will most certainly establish for them their religion which he has chosen for them,
and that he will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve me, not associating aught with me, and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the transgressors” (24:55)
“And we desired to bestow a favor upon those who were deemed week in the land, and to make them the Imams (Leaders), and to make them the heirs.” (28:5)
Q7. Is it obligatory for Muslims to believe in him and why?
-Yes it is obligatory, because as you know we muslims believe in Quran which is a guide to those who guard (against evil), those who believe in the unseen,(i.e. Mahdi and his occultation) according to the verses i stateted, it is clear that Allah has told Muslim ummah that there will be a servant of Allah who will rule with justice, according to hadith of Muhammad (saw), that servant is Imaam Mehndi(sw), so if we believe in Quran we are also suppose to believe in its sayings.
Dear Lucifer, i think i answered your questions as well.
Zalim, i will get back to rest of the questions later.
Fe Aman Ullah
Asalam-u-Alaikum
Now your question regarding “dejal”(anti-christ,anti-Islam),sorry i had to leave because of a personal problem,anyway lets continue
Q8. What is that dajjal, please elaborate?
"dajal"will be a man from the Jews. He will appear during the time of Imaam Mahdi (AS) and Nabi Isaa (AS) will descend from the heaven to slay Dajjaal. Nabi Isaa (AS) will kill “dajal” at a place called Baab lud.On the forehead of “dajal” will be inscribed the letters (Kaff, Faa, Raa). This is the stamp of KUFR which appears on his forehead. He will have only one eye which will be large and protruding from its socket. “dajal” will lay claim to divinity. He will claim to be God and in support of his claim he will demonstrate many supernatural feats, e.g. he will cause rain to fall, plants to grow, raise the dead, etc. He will have a great following and spread mischief, strife and anarchy on earth. He will ransack, pillage and plunder many lands but he will not be able to gain entry into Makkah Mukarramah and Madinah Munawwarah. Special Malaikah are standing guard over these two holy cities. “dajal” will flee upon seeing Nabi Isaa (AS). Hazrat Isaa (AS) will pursue him and kill him.
If you have any further questions regarding Islam, just ask and i will try my best to answer.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
Fe Aman Ullah
Masooma
Jazakallah Masooma sis,
Thankyou for your time and effort. For now I just want to stay to your reply on the first question merely, … please share your views on that first.. we will discuss the rest later.. Since this is a very important and sensitive topic, I don’t want to move further with out debating on this issue.
Part of the translations you quoted needs more elaboration.
[quote]
**
Masooma quotes:
-Surah 4:157,158 says,
"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus Son of Mary, Allah's messenger--They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain, But Allah took him up unto Himself...."
**
[/quote]
As far as the expression states, “wa ma qatalu hu, wa ma salabu ho wa ala kin shubay hala hum” . this fraction is very must clarified by the Quran, that “the jews slew him not, nor were they able to crucify him, but Jesus was made to appear to them like one crucified”… Both of us agree on this.
Among Jews two different views prevail regarding Jesus’ alleged death. Some hold that Jesus was first killed and then his dead body was hung on the cross, while others are of the view that he was put to death by being fixed to the cross. As His supposed death on cross, according to Jewish Law, was considered as an accused death. (Deut. 21:23). The former view is reflected in Acts 5:30 where we read “which ye slew and hung on a tree”. The Quran refutes both these views “they slew him not, nor crucified him”. The sequence of words in the said verse also signifies that the Quran first rejects the slaying of Jesus in any form, and then proceeds to deny the particular way of killing on the cross.
Anyways the above was not relevant part of our discussion, I wrote this for other readers.
The later part of the verse is a bit confusing.
[quote]
Masooma quoted “But Allah took him up unto HIMSELF...."
[/quote]
Dear sis, first tell me where your Allah located? Was Allah not present on the Earth at that time? Or He has some bureau up in the sky for official matters? Common Masooma jee, be logical. Only a physical being can move towards physical one, A spiritual towards spiritual.
The so called orthodox Muslim belief that a Jesus-look-alike was crucified instead of Jesus, and that Jesus was raised to heaven, to descend a latter day, has no support in the Holy Quran. The origin of this popular belief is from Christian sources.
Quran is quite clear that Jesus has passed away, and gives no support to the concept of Jesus physically going to heaven. Before going into specific verses of Quran and references of Hadiths that refute this orthodox belief, it should be noted that Heaven is a spiritual state, which our souls experience after death but not before death. It is not a physical location beyond the atmosphere.
This is a very lengthy topic, please bear with me. I will prove with “Quran ONLY” that ‘Jesus was not ascended to sky and died a natural death’ like other Humans, like other Prophets, like our Beloved Prophet (sa) Die in this world.
Let me write something about Judah first, which some Muslims believes that he resembled Jesus and was substituted.
[quote]
**Masooma says:
"The normal explanation is that God put someone else on the cross and took Jesus to heaven. Judas is probably the most suggested person for who died in Jesus' place. No historical evidence is given. It is believed because the Quran states it as the truth!"
**
===========================================
About JUDAH:
Jewish history began about 4,000 years ago with patriarch ABRAHAM, his son ISSAAC (Ishaaq) and grandson JACOB (Yaqoob). ISRAEL’ is another name of Jacob, given by the God(Genesis 32:28).
Jacob had TWELVE SONS, the 12 tribes of Israel were named after them. Judha was one of them. viz; Ruben - Simeon - Levi – JUDAH – Issachar – Zebulun – Asher – Benjamin - Dan – Naphtali – Gad – Joseph.
After 430 years of captivity, the Israelites were led to freedom by MOSES who, according to the Bible, was chosen by God to take his people out of Egypt, back to the land of Israel promised to their forefathers. During 40 years of wandering in the Sinai Desert, the Israelites received the Law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments, and were forged into a nation. The exodus from Egypt left an everlasting imprint on the nation memory of the Jewish people and became a symbol of liberty and freedom.
The first king, SAUL, bridged the period between loose tribal organisation and a setting up of a full monarchy under his successor - DAVID. SOLOMON ruled after David, and after his death, his son Rehoboam, divided the nation into two kingdoms, the Northern Kingdom of ISRAEL: encompassing the territory of ten of the Israelite tribes (except Judah and Benjamin tribes), which are later made captive and dispersed by the Assyrian Kings and the were thus know as LOST TEN TRIBES OF ISRAEL. The other one was the Southern Kingdom of JUDAH: which comprised of the tribes of ‘Judah’ and ‘Benjamin’
That’s why today the people of Northern kingdom call themselves Bani Isralities, while the others call them Judean, or Yahudi.
So I don’t think Judah was alive at the time of Jesus crucifixion, He lived around 1200 BC. Never heard of this concept before.
[/quote]
Please wait for my reply on the later part of your first reference.
Wa’salam
Dear Masooma and others,
first of all thanx for participating in this thread, now i was browsing through quran and i came upon an iat,
chap 3 verse 145
" And Mohammad is only a prophet ...... And the believers will be rewarded"
In this it is clearly stated taht all the prophets including Mohammad (pbuh() and other who came before him had died...
So apparently there is no reason stated here that christ was taken above the skies...
Rest in Peace
Asalam-u-alaikum
You say:
"Dear sis, first tell me where your Allah located? Was Allah not present on the Earth at that time? Or He has some bureau up in the sky for official matters? Common Masooma jee, be logical. Only a physical being can move towards physical one, A spiritual towards spiritual."
Dear bhai, i hope you already know that no one ever saw Allah, not even Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w) , we muslim believe in unseen.Yes, it is true that only a physical being can move towards physical one, and spiritual towards spiritual, BUT if we Muslims beilieve in Allah ,The Being who is Waajibul Wujood which means that His existence is by Himself!!, i.e. He is self-existent. His existence is absolutely independent of all things.(If this is possible, which is NOT logical), then a physical being moving towards spiritual, and spiritual being moving towards physical, it is not IMPOSSIBLE for Him(Allah) to make it happen.Allah states in Quran
"......He decrees a thing, He only says, "Be", and it does come into being"
Dear brother, this all doesn't sound logic,or does it? and if we muslims believe in all this, then we also believe that nothing is impossible for Allah to do. Dear brother, Hazrat Maryam, she was never touched by a man, if Allah can make a virgin women pregnant(this is not logic either), then HE has the power to do anything. So for you to say that the statement in Quran which clearly tells us that Hazrat Isla (as) was not crucified but raised to heaven, is wrong(Astak farullah), is not LOGICAL regarding Muslim beliefs.
I would like to re-write the translation here,
".....Then they went so far in their unbelief that they uttered a monstrous calumny against Mary: they themselves bragged, "We have slain Jesus, son of Mary, a Messenger of Allah." Whereas, in fact they did not slay him nor did they crucify him but the matter was made dubious for them. And those who have differed about this matter are also in doubt concerning it. They have no knowledge of it but they follow mere conjectures, for it is certain that they did not kill Jesus. Nay, the fact is that Allah had raised him to HIMSELF, for Allh is ALL-POWERFUL, ALL WISE..............."
I'll be waiting for your reply
Fe Aman Ullah
Masooma
Dear Lucifer the verse was chap 3:144 not 145..uff
ok let me state the verse here and then explain.
"Muhammad is no more than a Messenger: other messengers have already passed before him: if, then, he also dies or is slain, will you turn about on your heels?Remember, he who turns about on his heels, will do no harm at all to Allah;of course, Allah will duly reward those who live as His grateful servants.
Dear Lucifer, this aya doesn’t really have to do anything with the issue we are discussing but still if you brought up the aya, let me explain, take a closer look at the vocabulary used for translating the aya, “Other Messengers have passed before him”, at the time when this aya was revealed, Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w) was alive, so by using such words, “already passed before him”,Allah didn’t address the Prophets who died, but Allah addressed ALL PROPHETS who HE has sent before Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w). .Dear lucifer, there are always two ways to view one ayah, so while you view an aya supporting your idealogy, dont ignore the other view point which may go against your ideology.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/wink.gif
Masooma
[This message has been edited by Masooma (edited July 02, 2000).]
Masooma sis, salam again,
Dear, to me it doesn’t sound reasonable. True no one has seen Allah meyaan, but why cant we see him, Haan? The simple answer which I tried to explain is that Allah is not a physical being to be seen by naked eye, He is a spiritual being and thus to see him, one must possess a spirituality eye. I don’t agree with this that both the terms “Spiritual being” and “Physical being” are mutually interchangeable.
Then you said Allah her cheez per qadir hai, ok this is understandable, but again this doesn’t mean that He can violate his own laws. For example take the planets, He made a single law for all of them, not separate laws for each of the them. All of them are moving under the same ruling, all moving clockwise(?), all revolving in orbits, all possessing gravity, and so on. From sun n moon to the very corner of the galaxy the same rules apply to all the planets. Allah can change their path Allah can make them move in reverse, but this is against his laws. That’s what I am saying thou He has the power to do anything, but He don’t go against his laws.
Regarding the issue of Jesus birth,- I have discussed this issue earlier, may be we will discuss this again later. Just in short His birth is not a supernatural phenomenon, birth like his, is possible and has been witnessed. A rare type of ovarian tumor, called arrhenoblastoma is capable of transforming into anytype of tissue, hair, teeth, gums, tongue, intestine, even to a functional testicular tissue, and given the circumstance, the fertilization is not impossible. Changiz khan and Buddha are to name a few, were also born out of virgins. Moreover, we as Muslims must seek spiritual aspect of such incidences, and should not run after physical matters. In this instance His birth is a prophecy for the Hebrew nation that, they have distorted their teaching so much that now it is not possible for any Hebrew man to become a father of any Prophet, moreover it also forecasted the shift of Prophethood from the house of Israel to the house of Ismael.
Anyways these are all not part of the topic, nor use such terms again to block the speech. If you have any other thing to point out in the above post, please do so.
I am trying to find few references, be right back shortly..
The reference Lucifer quoted will be last part of my debate on this issue, its not irrelevant.
wa'salam
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited July 02, 2000).]
Back to your reply.
salam again
[quote]
Masooma quoted: “But Allah took him UP unto HIMSELF"
Actual words in Quran: “…bal rafa ulllah hu e’lae hay”
[/quote]
::: Meaning Of word ‘Rafa’
[quote]
according to authentic Arabic lexicons
Mufradat & *Aqrab,
"RAFA" means;
*
~he raised or lifted a thing;
~he raised a person in rank, honor, position or dignity;
~he took a report or complaint to a person in authority.**
[/quote]
[quote]
According to general Muslims the word "RAFA" is translated as..
“PHYSICAL ASSENTION TO SKY”,
plus the meaning is further added by
“SUBSTITUTION OF JESUS WITH ANOTHER HUMAN OF THE SAME APPEARANCE”
[/quote]
In fact here the word ‘Rafa’ signifies only raising the status and the rank of a person and honoring him.
When the ‘Rafa’ of a person is spoken of as being towards Allah, the meaning is invariably his spiritual ascension, because Allah not being material or confined to any place, no physical ascension to Him is possible. The raising of Jesus is mentioned in the verse under comment in reply to the false claim of the Jews that he died an accursed death on the cross.
Furthermore the Quran has used the word in the same sense in the following verses, thou nowhere it is translated as “physical ascention” but as “spiritual assention”. Why there is so much hypocrisy in translating this verse differently. Why it is deliberately interpreted as such. Why Muslims wants to change the meaning of the Quran just to support their ideology and don’t want to interpret it in the language of Quran. Alas! Question like this has no answer.
::: Some REFERENCE VERSES with word RAFA:
(PS: verses are numbered as Bismillah = verse one).
Please read them in Arabic and translate it by yourself. Also try with substituting the meaning “pull up towards the sky”
[quote]
*** Chapter 2 (Al-Baqarah), verse 254** – 'These Messengers have We exalted some of them above them above others; among them there are those to whom Allah spoke; and some of them He exalted in degrees of rank. …….'
*** Chapter 7 (Al-Araf), verse 177** –* 'And if We had pleased, We would have exalted him thereby; but he inclined to the earth and follow his evil desires. His case, therefore, is like the case of a thirsty dog; if thou drive him away, he hangs out his tongue. Such is the case of the people who disbelieve in Our Signs. So relate to them this narrative that they may reflect.' *
*** Chapter 19 (Maryam), verse 58** – ' And We exalted him to a lofty station.'
*** Chapter 24 (Al-Nur), verse 37** – 'This light illumines houses with regard to which Allah has ordained that they be exalted and that His name be remembered in them. Therein do glorify Him in the mornings and the evenings.'
*** Chapter 35 (Al-Fatir), verse 11** – 'Whoso desire honour, let him know that all honour belongs to Allah. Unto Him ascend pure words, and righteous deeds does He exalt, and those who planned evils - for them is a severe punishment; and the planning of such will perish.'
[/quote]
Another point before I leave…
the prayer between two sajdas also include the same word, “wa’rafani”, you think a Muslim fed up after one sajda and ask God to pull him up?
[quote]
**
Again I will say, when Allah is the subject and a human being the object, “Rafa” has no other meaning than raising the status, spiritual ascension or exalting someone. No matter which Arabic lexicons or Arabic literature use browse, you will find no other meaning than this. **
[/quote]
Masooma jee, Islam is the most misunderstood religion of the world. Unfortunately today’s Muslims top the list. The very first verse of this Book says that it is guidance for Mutaqeen, so how can you imagine that one who doesn’t have bit of taqwa (fear of Allah) can receive guidance from this.
more to come.... for now please share your view on this.
wa'salam
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited July 03, 2000).]
Asalaam alaikum wrt wb,
With regards to Allah’s Attributes, the position of the first 3 generations (the salaf) is that we acknowledge them and leave them as they are, and insha’Allah I’ll start a separate thread on this and go into the detail. Don’t bother speculating what you think Allah (SWT) is. He (SWT) is beyond out understanding. The laws that Allah (SWT) has created for us in this universe, Allah (SWT) is not governed by these laws. One argument the atheist makes is that if Allah (SWT) is all powerful, can He create a rock so big that He can’t lift it. And if He does then that means He isn’t all powerful And if He doesn’t that again means he can’t do everything isn’t all powerful according to these atheists. What these people don’t understand is that these laws don’t apply to Allah (SWT).
Secondly, with regards to the hadith, there is a whole science to this, there are 700,000+ hadiths, of these only about 9,000 made it into Imam Bukhari’s collection (that’s a little over 1%), Imam Muslim’s collections is about 11,000 which are the 2 soundes hadith collections out there. Imam Bukhari’s criterion of accepting a hadith was extremely strict, a hadith had to pass 70 tests (from what I recall from memory) in order for it to be accepted. i.e. Was the person religious that narrated it, the transmission chain could not be broken, more then one person narrated it, the people that narrated had to have met, etc (70 items). And there are other collections we use such as Sunan of Abu Dawood, Ibn Majah’s collection, An Nisai, At Tirmhidi, Muwatta’s collection, etc. Anyways, I’ll start a separate thread on the science of hadith.
Getting back to the discussion, and this isn’t even something debatable, Jesus (a.s.) will return. How can you ignore what is in the authentic Sunnah? Being a Muslim is we accept what is in the Quran and what is in the authentic Sunnah. You are creating doubts in your own mind by looking at one or two pieces of a puzzle, but if you look at all the pieces in the puzzle (Quran, authentic Sunnah) the picture becomes clear.
Here is what Dr. Siddiqi (President of the Islamic Society of North America) said:
Now let me briefly explain what are the teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah on the Second Coming of Jesus. Concerning Jesus Allah says in the Qur’an, “He was no more than a servant whom We had favored and We made him an example to the Children of Israel…. And He shall be a sign for the Hour (of Judgment), therefore have no doubt about it and follow me. This is a straight way.” (Al-Zukhruf 43:59-61) It is reported in the authentic collections of Hadith by Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim that the Prophet Muhammad -peace be upon him- said, “Soon the Son of Mary will descend among you as a just judge. He will break the cross, kill the pig, remove the Jizyah and the wealth will overflow so much that no one will take it, and until the prostration (al-Sajdah) will be better than the world and whatever is in it. Then Abu Hurairah said, 'Read if you wish, ‘And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness on them.’” (al-Nisa’ 4:159) Imam Muslim has reported that the Prophet -peace be upon him- said, “How (happy) will you be when the Son of Mary will come down among you and your Imam will be from amongst you.” In another Hadith it is said, “A group of my Ummah will continue fighting for the truth and will be victorious until the Day of Resurrection. Then Jesus son of Mary will come down and their (Muslim’s) leader will say, ‘Come and lead our prayer’, but he will say, 'No, you have your leaders among you. This is the honor of Allah for this Ummah.” It is also reported by Imam Muslim that Jesus will fight the Dajjal (a demonic figure who will pretend to be the Masih and will deceive many people) and will kill him at the gate of Ludd near the city of Jerusalem.
The Second Coming of Jesus is clearly established from the Qur’an and authentic Sunnah. We Muslims should not have any doubt about this matter. The Ahadith make it very clear that:
Jesus will descend (yanzil) and will not be born. Thus any one who will be born and will grow up in front of the eyes of his contemporaries and then will claim that he is the Promised Masih, he will be misusing these Ahadith and misleading the people.
Jesus’ coming will be “a sign of the approaching Day of Judgment”. If any one made a claim of being the Masih while the Day of Judgment did approach, neither in his life nor soon after him, then it is proved that he was a false pretender and not a true Messiah.
Jesus will not come to add or subtract anything from Islam. He will not claim himself to be a new Prophet or Messenger. He will not even lead a prayer of Muslims, he will follow in prayers the Ameer or Imam of Muslims. If any one claimed to be the Messiah and led the prayers of Muslims then that person, according to the Ahadith, will not be a true Masih.
Jesus will be a just judge. He will make right judgment between the truth and falsehood. He will break the cross, kill the pig and will remove the Jizyah. This means that he will correct the false doctrines and beliefs that are spread about him and about his teachings among his followers and many of them will follow him and thus the followers of the Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Jesus -peace be upon both of them- will be united into one Ummah and there will be no need for Jizyah.
Jesus will fight the Dajjal and will kill him near Jerusalem. He will not say that Qital is abolished and is not necessary any more.
We do not know when Jesus will come, but he will surely come. It is important to believe whatever Allah has said in the Qur’an and whatever is explained in the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet -peace be upon him. May Allah keep us on the right path.
Wasalaam,
Arshad http://members.home.net/arshad
Asalam-u-Alaikum
Now what else is left for me to say? Mashallah bhalo je did an excellent job. Very well said bhalo.
Fe Aman Ullah
Masooma
Babloo jee, I think either you are new here, or just not familiar with the etiquette of a debate.
We are presently talking about the “ASCENTION of the Jesus” and “NOT” his descend OR Sunnah OR Allah’s existence OR anything else.
I have read your post and saved it on one of my drives. You can now remove it and save it for later discussion. However, you are most welcome to share your views regarding His physical journey to sky.
Please, I am neither an atheist nor a blind follower. Tagging along majority is not my business; thou I like to walk on Logics and Proofs. Allah has given me eyes and ears and wisdom and insight, so why should not I understand my faith by myself. Why should I consider myself handicap and led a limping life?
Thankyou,
(PS: the verse you quoted 4:159 is quite erroneous to your understanding. I would surely discuss that one later, for now please go through its grammar.)
Masooma sis, I was not expecting a one-liner reply from a sensible person like you.
Bhaloo, I chose to discuss solely on this Book, you know why? ‘Cause “….Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much disagreement”.[4:83] “This is a perfect book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous”[2:3]. there is no ikhtelaaf in it. Its teaching are perfectly harmonious, no part clashing in letter or sprit with another, no section nourished at the cost of another. Hadiths just elaborated it, made it more sensible, more practical.
On a second thought, I should let you guys go and ask please write all the relevant Hadiths, quote whatever you have about his physical pulling up to sky, but please don’t go here and there, stay on the track.
Anyways I have to go now…. catch you later.
wa'salam