Dear Bhalo,
The Thread which i 've started is not that jesus was taken up or not ..it depends upon ure believe. But The question is that when will he come back .. and when he comess back .. as ya have said he will desend from the sky ..I think That CNN and BBC will not give proper coverage to this rare event , then how come we know that who is jesus. If some man comes on tv and says to us that he is JESus ..the n how will we recognize... And what is the time for jesus to come back on earth ....
Asalam-u-Alaikum
Zalim bhai, bhalo je's post was very self explainatory, and i agreed with whatever he wrote. Now one thing is confusing me, you do believe in Quran, but then you also say "‘Jesus was not ascended to sky and died a natural death’ like other Humans, like other Prophets, like our Beloved Prophet (sa) Die in this world",if this is what you want to prove, then how would you explain the statement in Quran saying, "...They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them;....", bhai what is your point? If Quran says, Hazrat Isa(a.s) was not crucified, then how else did he die, and if he died why Allah didn't say anything about his death in Quran, how did he die? And how come we come accross so many hadiths saying that Isa(as) will come back as he never died, he will live his life and then die like a normal human being?
Please let me know, what is your point?
Masooma
Dear All,
I've found an astonishing book, a day before yesterday i was visiting one of the largest publicationers SANG-e-Meel in lahore.
There i found a book "Maseeh ki gumshuda zindigi" (The lost life of Jesus). This book is wrttien by a muslim PAYAM SHAHJAHAN PURI. In this book i 've found certain very good proofs of that JESUS lived in india.
It would be better to get this book .. otherwise i'll first translate them and tpost them here in the tread ..
I'll reply very soon...
Rest in PEace,,,
Lucifer!
Many good and devout Muslims have tried to elucidate to you from Qura~n, ahadith and various other Islamic traditions that Jesus, pbuh, was saved by Allah from death on Cross. Such is the tradition of Allah. Joseph was gagged and thrown into well but Allah saved him. Allah saved three companion of Daniel who were pushed into a furnace. When Abraham, pbuh was thrown into fire by Pharoah, Allah ordained the fire to cool down. In the same manner Allah delivered Jesus, pbuh from the accursed death and brought him closer than ever to Him.
This is a hot bed of controversy between Christian and Muslims. Jews and Christians, despite their discords, are at one that Jesus, pbuh died on Cross. The Chronicle of Roaman Empire are in accord with this so called fact.
Six hundred years after Jesus, pbuh a man from Arabian desert made his appearance and proclaimed contrary to the entire world.
"They slew him not nor crucify him."
This is a standing miracle of Muhammad, pbuh. The Qura~n says that Jesus was recalled, just like a government recalls its ambasador from a foreign land. If you believe that Jesus was a human being, then it is absolutely fair to kill him twice. One on the cross and then in India. OK he did not die on cross, but escaped to India and then lived therea and then died. Dead man do not come back to life and then live and then die again. No human is to taste the agony of death twice. (??)
The idea you seems to be impressed or spreading is nothing new. This was actualy preached by Mirza Gholam Ahmad, who declared that he was Imam Mahdi, after sometime the glad tiding of being Promised Messiah reached him and finally, he was the prophet. Mirza played his part very well as he never forgot the favors conferred by the British masters.
But for a Muslim Qadianis misdeeds are too numerous to be reckoned. It encourages disllusionment. So this is my sincere suggestion to you, search your soul and do not pave the way for hypocrites and imposters.
sorry one correction. I said
"If you believe that Jesus was a human being, then it is absolutely fair to kill him twice.:
It should read
"If you believe that Jesus was a human being, then is absolutely UNFAIR to kill him twice."
Alot of people argue that Hazrat Esa (pbuh)
cannot be in haven cause it is not a place for people who are in flesh and bone and we muslim believe he has not died but has been taken by Allah (swt) up physically.
Now, the Koran also tell us that Hazrat Adam
(pbuh) before comming to this world was also living in heaven in human form, so I'm thinking if Hazrat Adam (pbuh) was there then how come Hazrat Esa (pbuh) cannot be??
Regarding how we can recognize Hazrat Esa (pbuh), i dont think he will be comming down at midnight and no one will see him. Surely there will be people witnessing him coming from heaven and there will be signs in his words and action that surely we will know if he is true or not.
**
RE: Baykhatr bahi, Mohammed Ali, Masooma Sis and others,
**
salam all. I apologize for the tardy reply.
ok lets see where should I start… ummmmm… its all jumbled up, better start from scratch again… … let me summarize the what I want to say
::: i) Jesus did not ascended to heaven, physically. Presently I am discussing on this topic with masooma, for which she put some queries to me. (see my next post). All are welcome to share their thoughts on His “LIVE ASSENTION TO SKY” not his second advent or anything else. If this point is proved the other becomes automatically valid. Someone has to leave the house first to enter again, not vice-versa.
::: ii) Jesus did not die on cross. My argument “he did not ascended to heaven” DOES NOT means “he died on cross”. As mentioned earlier, Allah saved Jesus from death on cross. Like Joseph was saved from well. Johanah was saved from fish. Abraham escaped the fire. Such is the tradition of Allah. History is another scale to measure the truth. How come no other Prophet was save in supernormal way, like the Jesus?. Give your argument a support, you are not only born Muslim, Allah has also given you wisdom, seek the answer from His Book. Why just limp on beliefs which have no back.
::: iii)This part I should repeat again. Like all the Prophets of Allah, Like our beloved Prophet(sa) he(Jesus) also lived a life till his gray age and whatever mission was assigned to him, Allah helped him to finished that. Recalling him back means he left the task uncompleted. Now again I want to ask here; Why he was sent as a Prophet? Did he completed his mission? Why Quran says repeatedly “he was a messenger sent to Bani-israel”? On his second advent do we have to delete such verses of Quran? Or we will continue reading the same. Remember we are talking about “Al-Kitab” – the perfect book.
::: iv) This is in reply to Baykhatr and Co. Brother, let me tell you once for all. I am talking on a issue over here with references from Quran and Quran only which all of the Muslims believe that is still in its purest form and a error-free Book. Neither I am talking about qadianism, nor I am asking you to become a qadiani, or asking you to prove that qadianis are British agents. Please refrain from lowering your prestige…………… We came to know about creation of Adam from the Bible. We believe in it because we find similar reference in the Holy Quran also. Believing in creation of Adam did not make us Christian. Similarly, it may appear that only Qadianis believe that Jesus(pbuh) is dead. If we find proof of his death from the Holy Quran, we must believe it. Believing in Jesus’(pbuh) death would not make us Qadiani just as believing in creation of Adam did not make us Christian. Just for your info let me tell you this thing to, today this belief is not bound to qadianism only; Muslims all over the world are now realizing this erroneous concept of physical ascension.
::: v) This is in reply to Mohammad Ali, brother, Heaven is a spiritual state, which our souls experience after death but not before death. It is NOT a physical location beyond the atmosphere. Moreover Allah says that anyone who enters the Heaven, shall abide there FOREVER. There is no exit door of Heaven. Got my point? Statement like, Adam was living in Heaven and so on, these are all metaphorical term and should not be interpreted AS SUCH.
Salam,
**::: vi) This is in reply to Masooma*, she says: “Now one thing is confusing me, you do believe in Quran, but then you also say "‘Jesus was not ascended to sky and died a natural death’ like other Humans, like other Prophets, like our Beloved Prophet (sa) Die in this world", if this is what you want to prove then ~”
**~ how would you explain the statement in Quran saying, "...They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them;....", bhai what is your point? **
Sis, how did you come up with this interpretation that the word “shubay halahum” means “replacement with another person of the similar features”? Does Quran really means that? Does Hadith say so?
Without going any further, first let us try to dissect the key words ‘wa lakin shubbiha lahum’ and understand the usage and syntax.
Sis, The meaning of the root word "shibbahum" is given in Arabic dictionary as "a likeness". The word "shubbiha" is the passive form of the root word and means "to be made like"
Now the question is, WHAT was made like that, Two possibilities, either Someone is made like Jesus, or the whole scenario for which the verse is talking about was mimicked.
The verse 4:158 does not refer to simulation of appearance of a different person. If any of the fairly correct translation is considered, than the word similitude refers to the key words DEATH or CRUCIFIXION: …. they could not KILL him nor could they CRUCIFY him, event though a likeness of THAT was made to them…..
Let us examine the next verse (4:159) to analyze the above verse. Allah says “bal rafa-ullah ho elay hay”.
- The word ‘rafa’ occurred many times in the Quran conveying a meaning of spiritual honor and exaltation (see earlier post for references).
- Please note carefully what Allah says Jesus(pbuh) will be raised towards Him “rafaullah” and NOT towards Heaven “rafa ul’jannah”. So the question of Jesus(pbuh) being alive in the Heaven can not arise, because he was not raised in the Heaven.
Masooma you are sensible larki, how come you ended up with such an explanation?. (I will wait for your reply on this)
**~If Quran says, Hazrat Isa(a.s) was not crucified, then how else did he die,
~how did he die? **
He died a natural death, after his escape from cross and after accomplishing his tasks, [that is to “gather the lost sheep’s of Israel”]. He found those sheeps (lost tribes) scattered from syria to afghanistan to Kashmir. Historical evidences from these places shows that Jesus visited them at old age. Now this is another topic. I can discuss on that too, only if you are interested.
**~and if he died why Allah didn't say anything about his death in Quran, **
Well Quran does speak about that. This will be my last part of speech. Wait… I will talk on the same verse that Lucifer quoted.
**~And how come we come across so many hadiths saying that Isa(as) will come back as he never died, he will live his life and then die like a normal human being? **
There are only three possibilities for your question, ONE, the hadiths are false, TWO, the hadiths are true, THREE the hadiths are explained on metaphorical grounds and not in literal sense. You are trying to choose the one, which supports your beliefs. To validate its real meaning, you first have to reject all and try to understand each at a time in the Light of Quran.
**~Please let me know, what is your point? **
My point is very clear from start. i.e. Islam is not a fairy tale. It’s a perfect religion, and such acrobatic act doesn’t not excels its value among other religions. Holy Prophet is the greatest person of the world. No one can excel him in any respect. IF He can fly, anyone can. This concept of Jesus is crept in from Christian mythology, who only believe that He went up for the sake of their sins.
Jesus did not Die on cross, He escaped the cross, without substituting anyone and completed his mission. He than traveled towards east in search of the ten lost tribes of Israel. His companion accompanied him along with his Mother. Muree, a city near Islamabad, is named after her, cause of her burial place. (this is the region which Bible, Quran v.23:50, history and other scriptures referred as their shelter place). He found most of the lost tribes in this region, Afghanistan, and northern subcontinent.
These briefly answers your, if you need details, I will be happy to provide that.
will wait for your reply to debate further.
wa'salam
Zalim....>>iii)This part I should repeat again. Like all the Prophets of Allah, Like our beloved Prophet(sa) he(Jesus) also lived a life till his gray age and whatever mission was assigned to him, Allah helped him to finished that. Recalling him back means he left the task uncompleted. <<
U dont have to repeat such a sweeping statement as it does not have any truth in it. There have been many prophets or messengers. What mission was assigned to Isaac or Jacob, Aaron or Elias or Elisha?? What did Zacharia or John accomplished?? You have to remind yourself that Allah says
"....messengers We have mentioned to you before and messengers We have not mentioned to you." (4:164)
Compared to the few mentioned in Qura~n, Allah had appointed a lot more messengers and prophets. We dont know nothing about them. Yes He left his task uncomplete, and that is why He will send him back to complete it. And then you say that .." Why Quran says repeatedly “he was a messenger sent to Bani-israel”? Please qoute the aya # to ascertain that how many times Allah says so in Qura~n. You are exhorting others to mention Qura~n, how come this rule is not applicable on you. (?)
Zaalim....>>We came to know about creation of Adam from the Bible. We believe in it because we find similar reference in the Holy Quran also. <<
Bible as we have today is not a book of any lesson. If you carefully study or have a first hand knowledge about what is being preached in Bible, you should know that Lord says in Genesis:
"And the Lord regretted that He had created Adam and His heart was sadened..." (6:6)
so less you mention Bible, in a discussion, more maturity it reveals.
As regards to what happened to Jesus after he escaped gallows, is not important at all. Only Allah has true knowledge and only He can reveal the truth. Rest is nothing more than conjecture. This has no lesson for mankind. More important is what he preached and how truely we follow it. If you are not a Qadiani, my statement would not have irritated you. But I have discussed this with many Mirzais and all start like this that Jesus escaped wherever and landed in Kashmir and that his tomb is also discovered there. Oh well.....!!
And heaven is not a spirtual state. You dont see rivers of honey and milk in spritual states. These are physical characteristics. MohammadAli's point is very valid. Adam lived in paradise before his death. It was from there he was expelled.
And re your response to Masooma wherein you are trying to creat some kind Arabic grammer lecture. May I ask you that what is your qualification re Arabic language or you just gotton hold of any dictionary?? Yes Alllah created another one like him. What is so difficult in it. Today scientists are cloning sheeps, rats, pigs and who knows humans too. Is it impossible for Allah???
Zaalim...>>Islam is not a fairy tale. <<
U bet it is not and those who make it a fairy tale have uterior purposes.
***::: Baykhatr says:
Zalim....>>iii)This part I should repeat again. Like all the Prophets of Allah, Like our beloved Prophet(sa) he(Jesus) also lived a life till his gray age and whatever mission was assigned to him, Allah helped him to finished that. Recalling him back means he left the task uncompleted. <<
U dont have to repeat such a sweeping statement as it does not have any truth in it. There have been many prophets or messengers. What mission was assigned to Isaac or Jacob, Aaron or Elias or Elisha?? What did Zacharia or John accomplished?? You have to remind yourself that Allah says "....messengers We have mentioned to you before and messengers We have not mentioned to you." (4:164 ) ***
The above statement of yours, very clearly reflects your beliefs, i.e Prophets was raised without any reason, they have no task, they don’t know why they were sent, they were just noble men who received revelation which has nothing to do with the mankind. The verse, the way you quote mean to say that Allah must have to tell the Muslim ummah about all the prophets and their mission. The one mentioned in Quran are not enough for them, whole list is required to confirm that they have assignments. What an intelligent person you are… Amazing eh! DEFINITELY I AM SPEACHLESS…
::: Baykhatr says:
Yes He (Jesus) left his task uncomplete, and that is why He will send him back to complete it. And then you say that .." Why Quran says repeatedly “he was a messenger sent to Bani-israel”? Please qoute the aya # to ascertain that how many times Allah says so in Qura~n. You are exhorting others to mention Qura~n, how come this rule is not applicable on you. (?)
Ok I take my words back…. The words as Allah says.. “wa rasoolan illa bani israel”.. is no where mentioned in Quran, I made it on my keyboard.. Sorry for that…
Returning of Jesus, I consider as part of Tauheen-e-Risalat… The Insult to the Holy Prophet (swa)… sadly Muslims don’t realize that…. Holy prophet(swa) was the Prophet for whom this whole world was crafted. When defining the line between all the other prophets and Him, the biggest difference which excels Him is that He(swa) was the messenger sent for the whole mankind, while the rest of them were confined to the local groups or geographical locations.. Infusing a Moosic Prophet as a Universal one is definitely a crushing attempt towards our beloved Prophet(swa) and Islam as well, which is a religion for the whole mankind. Sadly I am speechless.
***::: Baykhatr says:
Zaalim....>>We came to know about creation of Adam from the Bible. We believe in it because we find similar reference in the Holy Quran also. <<
Bible as we have today is not a book of any lesson. If you carefully study or have a first hand knowledge about what is being preached in Bible, you should know that Lord says in Genesis: ***
Do you mean to say that idea of Adam creped into Jews and Christian Books from Quran in the retrograde fashion, right?, that’s exactly what you want to say in reply to my post…. Hai na?
On the other hand.. you are trying to shake the foundation stone of Islam, one of the pillar made by Allah is the belief in all the Devine Books, you think “belief” means some doubtful material.. something which should be taken for granted…… again I am speechless….
**::: Baykhatr says:
As regards to what happened to Jesus after he escaped gallows, is not important at all. Only Allah has true knowledge and only He can reveal the truth. Rest is nothing more than conjecture. This has no lesson for mankind. More important is “wha”t he preached and “how truly” we follow it. **
Mister mister.. go again and read what you said above “so less you mention Bible, in a discussion, more maturity it reveals.” Which teaching of Jesus should we truly follow?? What is in your mind, please cough it up.. don’t make yourself so confused….
**::: Baykhatr says:
If you are not a Qadiani, my statement would not have irritated you. But I have discussed this with many Mirzais and all start like this that Jesus escaped wherever and landed in Kashmir and that his tomb is also discovered there. Oh well.....!! **
Baykhatr it doesn’t matter who I am. I am not discussing Qadianism overhear. Alas today this matter is not confined to qadianis only, for their sake you are denying Quran, very sad on your part. By the way did you read my other post from Saudi Newspaper?.. Have you read that now Muslims are fed up of this buk buk about His ascension…? may be if you have answered about my question, you would have thought for a while on this point too. This make me speechless again..
However you didn’t reply my question about his flight to heaven.. now I know the reason – you hate them and cant accept anything even if it has some weight…. Poor you for the sake of them, you are ridiculing your faith, rejecting the Quran… // good show mister.
**::: Baykhatr says:
And heaven is not a spirtual state. You dont see rivers of honey and milk in spritual states. These are physical characteristics. MohammadAli's point is very valid. Adam lived in paradise before his death. It was from there he was expelled. **
I think you are ready to make correction in Quran then. I cant translate these words of Allah that no one can be expelled from Jannah… “la yamasso hum feha nsabun wama hum minha baymukhrajeen” Moreover does such springs of Milk and honey flow under your Mom’s feet too, the same way you mean above? Why you don’t want to put the same meaning over there too, of course that’s also part of Islamic Books. Not a Qadiani quote of the day.
sorry I forget to answer this...
**::: Baykhatr says:
And re your response to Masooma wherein you are trying to creat some kind Arabic grammer lecture. May I ask you that what is your qualification re Arabic language or you just gotton hold of any dictionary?? Yes Alllah created another one like him. What is so difficult in it. Today scientists are cloning sheeps, rats, pigs and who knows humans too. Is it impossible for Allah??? **
On my side I have nothing except 5 Furqans lying on my desk.. that’s the only tool I have… whats on your side’.., your madarsa? Your ammi abu?? Or your sunni-arrogant environment??
[quote]
**
Anyways take a look at this picture in another way.
1) If Jesus designed and planned the disguise, then he is coward and cheat. He caused an apparent innocent person to die for him.
2) If Allah caused the feature of a different person to get changed and made him to die, then it is injustice on part of Allah. With the vast power and possibilities of Allah, He could have accomplished this matter in more graceful manner.
3) If saving Jesus was the main intention of Allah, then quietly Jesus should have been raised. There was no need to kill a different person in his place. The Jews would have got a message that Jesus was indeed a prophet.
4) If appearance of a different person can become like Jesus, then what stopped Jesus' appearance to become like a different person?
5) If the likeness of Jesus was shown to the Jews, then what was shown to the actual followers? Were the actual followers led to believe that the substituted person was actual Jesus?
6) If the actual followers knew that the substituted person was not actual Jesus, why did some of them follow the substituted person to the place of crucifixion? Were they making a fun of the situation?
7) If the actual Jesus was raised alive before the incidence of crucifixion, why did the followers not mention it to the Jews? Were they scared? Scared of what? Jesus was already saved by then. By remaining silent, the actual followers made a different person to die for no fault of his.
9) Actual Jesus was raised alive by Allah. If so, while he was raised alive, how come nobody saw the event? Was he made invisible at that time? Or does it mean a similitude of raising alive was shown to them? There is no convincing answer available to explain the process of raising.
10) The substitution theory says that Jesus was raised alive in the Heaven on the eve of crucifixion. However, verse 3:54 categorically says Allah will cause Jesus to die first than raise him. How can he be raised contrary to the verse 3:54? Where is the scope to accommodate the substitution theory?
11) Verse 23:50 says Allah sheltered Jesus and his mother in a plateau of meadows and spring. Did it happen before substitution? If so what is that place?
**
And the list continues….
[/quote]
In response to your last unsubstantiated reply, believe me after reading this I am speechless. I tried to ask you guys something, but instead of replying to the query you start finding keeray makoray in my post, there by showing you don’t have any answer.… trying to find an escape door. Like Allah her cheez pay qadir hai…. Bla bla
I don’t need the reply to the above post.. ok I am wrong so who cares, that’s my belief…... if you want to discuss then first answer my question, instead of going here and there and distracting the topic, prove from Quran that Jesus went up alive. WHICH QURANIC WORD REFERS TO SUCH ACROBATIC ACT? Please quote supporting verses with the same meaning. Answer this first before you go bla bla bla
JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION PLEASE….
One main thing that i learned from that BOOK is that .. JEsus did not die on CRUCIFIx ... this thing is proven scientifcally. It is as the cloth in which jesus was wrapped after getting off the crucifix, was preserved by the popes for century. About twenty years agon NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC printed a whole megazine on this topic .. And in it it is proven that when jesus pulled off the cruciix he was wrapped in it . And due to the blood of jesus and certain other chemical factors ... His negative was printed on it. Now the negative of a dead man can not sweat. Then he must be alive at that moment. So now ACCORDING to rationalist muslims (including JAMIA-tul-Azhar) rthat jesus was not taken above the skies. now just think for a time logically that gfor the certain questions:-
1) what was the reason to take Jesus above..? now why should he come back to us as a prophet and lead us to the right path. Jesus was not here to guide the muslims rather he was on earth to show BANI ISREAL the right path. Think logically ...
2) how and why and where jesus is taken ... (gimme ure answer rationally and plz with rerence to quran only)
3)God never changes his SUNAt ..he never breaks his rules .. why and why he change it in this case of JESUS ... ? no logic in it ...
Plz plz .. talk rationally and think of islam as a rational religon than an irrational ...
Dont mix mullaism in the religon ....
Rust in Peace
zalim....>>The above statement of yours, very clearly reflects your beliefs, i.e Prophets was raised without any reason, they have no task, they don’t know why they were sent, they were just noble men who received revelation which has nothing to do with the mankind.<<
Please do not be personal. I am asking you as to what mission was assigned to these prophets? If you cant answer the question, stay put. But dont ruin your own arguments.
Zalim....>>Ok I take my words back…. The words as Allah says.. “wa rasoolan illa bani israel”.. is no where mentioned in Quran, I made it on my keyboard.. Sorry for that… <<
I rest my case. Making something to support one's point of view is nothing but heresy. And you picked it up from the kind of books you are reading. Those folks have also made up things. The only time anything about 'bani Israel' is mentioned (with reference to Jesus, pbuh) is in Sura AlSuff
[61:6] Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic."
Remember it now. And please dont play with Qura~n. You are exposing yourself.
Zaalim.....>>again I am speechless….<<
You will be completely speechless by the time you are done discussing this topic with me. I assure you. But if you dont jump into conclusion so quick, you must would have realised that I said........>>Bible as we have today is not a book of any lesson.<<..... as we have today. I never said that these books were not revealed by Allah.
Zaalim....>>By the way did you read my other post from Saudi Newspaper?.. Have you read that now Muslims are fed up of this buk buk about His ascension…? <<
No I need not. As I said in the last post that it is not important as to what happened to Jesus, pbuh after he excaped the cross. It mean nothing to me. He was taken up, down, south, north, east or west. It is not a fundamental belief, therefore not worth wasting time.
Zaalim....>>… “la yamasso hum feha nsabun wama hum minha baymukhrajeen” <<
It is always adviseable to mention the sura and aya #. Please mention the aya# and the context.
Zaalim.....>>On my side I have nothing except 5 Furqans lying on my desk.. that’s the only tool I have… whats on your side’.., your madarsa? Your ammi abu?? Or your sunni-arrogant environment??<<
5 Furqans?? ami abu?? sunni-arrognat environment??? My doubts have become true. YOU are definately a Mirzai, a worshipper and gholam of Mirza Gholam Ahmad of Qadian. Let me ask you a question....where did Mirza die?? in Kashmir? In Qadian? or a place in Qadian?? Answer this please!
I can answer all the fears you have alluded to in bold. But it is important for one n other to identify themselves. You are Ahmadi. Go ahead admit it. There is no sword hovering over your throat here.
And by the way how come you become speechless so often, still deliver a speech for so long???
::: Lucifer: your reply is very sound, it’s the June 1980 National geographic which first published the full scientific detail of the shroud of Turin. But the Church though knew that its true from all sides, don’t want to accept it, coz this will tremble their chairs. There will be no position of Christianity if they accept that. Their tool against Muslims will be defused, they say that our Prophet Jesus was much superior than yours, He ascended to heaven and will come back later …..look at your Prophet, lying in the dust. Sadly Muslims supports them and are happy to accept their verdict.
Yaad rakho, Islam ki zindagee isa kay mernay main hai…
:::Baykhatr:
I think I asked you a simple question?? But you have showed that you have nothing to say… except your hateful behavior, very contrary to Holy Prophet(saw). You wrote all the buk buk, but remained silent on 11 points which I put in quotations above.
….. perhaps I presume, to distract the readers you like to pull off road.
Anyways regarding you response, (which is based solely on your mental agony), only one thing is worth replying with respect to the topic of thread….
The verse as you mentioned, says ….
[61:6] Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come **after me* whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic." *
did you notice anything remarkable in the above verse???
Jesus says that a Prophet will come after me, please read it again very carefully, look at the grammar… its very clear and precise.
Secondly what does He confirms in torah? Here again His mission is mentioned that He was sent for the people of Bani Israel, that was one of the forecast for him in Torah. Bani Israel thought that Elijah was raised to sky and will descend in later days. Exactly the same belief which today’s Muslim holds for him. But Quran has refuted both Muslims and Jews and Christian in a very beautiful and precise way.
- What position will this verse holds when He will come back?.
- When Jesus will come back again, will continue reciting the same?
- I don’t know how can you inset the theory of his ascension in this verse.
There is so much depth in every verse of Quran like a ocean is squeezed in few words, unfortunately you people of the Book just take it very literally and very superficially.. This is indeed very sad.
PS: I don’t have to show you where in the Quran it say “rasoolan illa bani Israel” , it was a sarcastic reply to you…. perhaps you are more learned and more knowledgeable than me… you know more Arabic but cant translate the simple verse I quoted….. very sad on your part. Anyone who recite Quran daily can very easily translate this Arabic text from the same Book. May Allah bless you…
more over you think it is relavant for me to tell about Isaac or Jacob, Aaron or Elias or Elisha's tasks?? Does it matches the topic? is it?
"I can answer all the fears you have alluded to in bold". dare to answer my single question?
*Now please cut this crap and stay on the topic or go open another thread… otherwise enjoy my ignorance. *
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited July 07, 2000).]
Zalim....>>did you notice anything remarkable in the above verse???<<
Yes the way I see it is Brahmos believe in God, they also regard Mohammad swaw, as a Prophet, yet they cannot be considered as part and parcel of Islam as they, like Qadianis, believe in perpetual revelation thru prophets and do not believe in the finality of Prophethood in Mohammad, swaw. Bahais are much more forthcoming than Mirzais, as they admit that they are a new community and do not insist upon others to call them as Muslims. But it is unfortunate that Mirzais, take heed from diplomatic interpretations of the idea of fianlity. Such perpetual purposes are for nothing but political advantages.
This is how I see it. What do you understand?
Zalim...>>Secondly what does He confirms in torah? <<
Torah, Zabur, Injeel are all part of Qura~n. Qura~n is known to be Umal Kitab. Mother of all the books. Every Prophet including Mohammad swaw, confirmed that the earlier books were Divine. There is an incidence where Mohammad swaw, gave verdict of two Jews as per their holy book. And pronouncing the judgement, he swaw, said, "O'Allah, remain witness that I have revived the verses of your Book given to these people."
Zalim sahib, all prophets or books are part of one long chain. No one came to destroy the teaching of his predecessor or to take undue advantages or credit for himself. Unless one is a false claimant to a Prophethood.
This is the problem with you. You have just gotton hold of some book, which exhorts its readers to believe without researching anything on their own. You think what you have read is Absolute. Little do you realise that most of the things associated in everyday life with Jesus pbuh, are very faulty and unsabstantiated. Nearly half the practicing Chirstians celebrate his birthday in springtime rather than December. Historians estimate earliest year was 11BC and the latest 4BC. Astronomist can still not pinn down the scientific explanation of star of Bethlehem. No one has most surely identified that the image on the shroud is definately that of a Jesus. It is all conjecture, as Allah says in Qura~n.
The mission Allah trusted Jesus was not salvation thru total atonement by blood sacrifice, but by virtue of right guidance and self-discipline. But just like his begining was controversial, so was his end. Crucifixion was planned and someone was crucified. But not Jesus, as Qura~n says. Allah came to his rescue and saved him and raised him up to Heaven. Whether he was raised in ranks by means of exellence or physical has not much bearing in Islam. Beacause what is important in Islam and for Muslim is what is revealed by Allah and not the conjecture.
I do not want to go on this bickering with you. I do not have time for such intellectual masterbation. You are free to believe whatever you are being spoonfed. I was just going thru the earlier posts and the very first one of yours suggested as follows:
- So whatever we will converse, Quranic references will top the priority. Ok?<<
While lateron you had to appologise as follows:
Ok I take my words back…. The words as Allah says.. “wa rasoolan illa bani israel”.. is no where mentioned in Quran, I made it on my keyboard.. Sorry for that…<<
What can possibly by discusssed with a person who invents or manufacturs Qura~n??
go to some other topic now. Start some other controversy.
Bahi meray that was a sarcastic remark, how many time do I have to repeat that….. for your naive mind let me write down the verse number… so that you may not waste time quoting the same thing again and again…. Its al’Imran, 3:50 “wa rasoolan illa bani israel ….And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, ….”
*bla bla bla... brother as usual you are wandering here and there… my question is still pending…. *
Well no answer is also an answer…
Thankyou for you time and effort….
Chaltay chaltya aik nasehat kerta chaloon….. “wal lazeena jahadu fena la nahde yanna hum subulana wa in nal la ha lama almohsayneen… And as for those who strive to meet US - WE will, surely, guide them in OUR ways. And, verily, ALLAH is with those who do good.”......
[29:70]
Zalim....>>Its al’Imran, 3:50 “wa rasoolan illa bani israel ….And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, ….”<<
No it is NOT. Your casual approach towards Qura~n is what pisses me off. Aya 50 of sura Al Imran goes like this
"And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurât (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allâh and obey me."
(3:50)
And same goes for your second reference. Sura Ankabut, which has only 69 aya. And not 70 as you suggest. All of this suggest that even for nakl, aql is required.
Actualy for zaalimeens like you Allah says as follows:
"And We send down from the Qur'ân that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe, and it increases the Zâlimûn nothing but loss. (17:82)
or better yet
"But those who strive against Our Ayât to frustrate them, those, for them will be a severe painful torment." (34:5)
Repent and promise yourself that you will NEVER use or alter Qura~n just to win a discussion. It is a grievious sin.
Your approach reminds me a sheyr of Iqbal
teri kam ilmi nay rakh li bay-ilmo ki laaj
aalam fazal baich rahay hain apna din iman
Ok now sue me for abusing the words of Allah…
PS: below (in bold) is the quote from my first reply to this post…..
[quote]
Originally posted by Zalim: posted July 02, 2000 12:22 AM
*3. Regarding Quran let me tell you few things, whatever translation we will quote should be addressed without adding brackets, so that it may not derail the readers. (thou you may quote any relevant Hadith to support your idea.) Furthermore, to avoid confusion, my reference verses are numbered ~ “Bismillah a’rahman’ir raheem” as verse ONE.
*
I believe (like most of the scholars) that Bismillah is part of Quran and is Part of revelation, which our beloved Prophet received from Allah and therefore should be considered as part of the chapter otherwise it will be considered as an addition to Quran.
[/quote]
bahi meray I don’t mean to disgrace you or your faith or your beliefs. All these are not part of my teachings….
Aap sahib-e-aqal bhi hain aur sahib-e-ilm bhi… is kay bawajood bhi aap mery sawal ka jawab nahin daysakay…. kuch batain aap ki maqool rang rakhtee hain per mauzoo say door hain…. Don’t know why are you afraid of answering my single question… uptill now you have not shown a visible contribution towards the topic, there by showing that you have nothing to say except walking on your false and concrete beliefs. I am sorry to say, there is no other conclusion I can retrieve from your posts.
Moreover, either you are deliberately quoting me wrongly or whatever I wrote is incomprehensible for you.
Anyways, may Allah bless you…..
wa’salam
ASA
Zalim why don’t u go to www.islamicity.com and look for the answer to ur query. I believe u’ll find wat u r looking for there.