How Can We Begin To Unite?

What is the sense of a religion, if for Jews all non-Jews are disbelievers, so for Hindus and for Muslims?
This is not an excuse that Napoleon or Mussolini killed so many people. Did Hitler raise the Christian flag anywhere?

Some times I feel that Al Qaeda, Bin Laden & co. are real Muslims. Every third or fourth verse in Quran condemns the disbelievers.
What wrong these people have done, if have followed these verses? Rest of the Muslim world lives in their shadow.
This entire Muslim world finds excuses for them, protect them or after every terror attack explains that Islam means peace.

Kashmir, Palestine or Chechnya…Quran says, ‘remove them from where they have removed you.’
Pls read history and find out who has remove whom?

Dear Sadya, does really Islam tell you to treat Muslims and non-muslins with similar respect and fairness?
Do I read some different Quran?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadya: *

They are not doing jihad against unbelievers, but against the unbelievers who oppress them. Bin Laden made it clear, his fight was against US policy, the government, not the people!
And btw, I still haven't seen solid proove, that indeed hewas behind the attacks on 11 september.

One of the meanings of JIhad is to defend yourself.
[/QUOTE]
Then why are their victims civilians and non-government targets? Do you really feel that their actions are God-sanctioned self defense? If the solution is for Muslims to unite under this type of jihad, the future of Islam (and Muslims) is bleak.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadya: *

They are not doing jihad against unbelievers, but against the unbelievers who oppress them. Bin Laden made it clear, his fight was against US policy, the government, not the people!
And btw, I still haven't seen solid proove, that indeed hewas behind the attacks on 11 september.

One of the meanings of JIhad is to defend yourself.
[/QUOTE]

what if some non-govermental groups attack muslims in the name of their own rleigen ? dont you think it should be left to leaders of the respective goverments to deal with matters of war and peace?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
What is the sense of a religion, if for Jews all non-Jews are disbelievers, so for Hindus and for Muslims?

This is not an excuse that Napoleon or Mussolini killed so many people. Did Hitler raise the Christian flag anywhere?

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying kill other people just becuase they odn't share your faith. But it's normal to believe in a certain religion, and that those who don't believe in it are not going to heaven.

You yourself were previously critising Islam, one of your critics somewhere was that Islam is the religion spreading hatred becuase in Quran non-believers are called this and that. I don't remember your exact words. All I was saying was, that practically ALL religions have this. What's the use of having a religion, if not following it you will still be rewarded. It's normal to think that non-believers will be punished by God. But NOBODY says that's the green light to kill non-believers!

Some times I feel that Al Qaeda, Bin Laden & co. are real Muslims.

I don't know about Bin Laden, I seriously doubt if he is the terrorist that he is branded by the west. I haven't seen any solid proove against him!
The rest I don't have any knowledge of.
So what are real muslims according to you?

Every third or fourth verse in Quran condemns the disbelievers.

What wrong these people have done, if have followed these verses?

There is a difference between saying disbelievers will be punished by God and actually killing them for no other reason than their different believe. I haven't read anywhere, nor did I hear this from any muslim either, that it's oké to kill disbelievers just because they don't share your faith!

Where do you get your information from? Not all information is correct and especially media doesn't portray always the truth.

This entire Muslim world finds excuses for them, protect them or after every terror attack explains that Islam means peace.

No, that's not true. Look at Saddam. Most of the people agree he was no angle. It doesn't mean that somebody says he's muslim, he will get away with criminal activities!
And didn't Pakistan also help the US in fighting the "war against terrorism"? True terrorism shoudl be stopped, wether it would be from muslims or non-muslims.

The Taliban were unfortunately wrongly accused by western world of terrorism, and the US government got away with attacking tiny Afghanistan and mostly killing innocent inhabitants. But where was solid proove?

Where was the muslim world? What about Palestine? Israel is breaking most of the rules of humanity, still no help from the Muslim world either to the Palestinian muslims there.

And when I talk about Kashmir, very less people here, including Muslims know what's happening there.

Kashmir, Palestine or Chechnya…Quran says, ‘remove them from where they have removed you.’

Pls read history and find out who has remove whom?

What do you mean? Who is removing whom?
You can't just whipe out people living some place for hundreds of years just because they are muslims, all sort of excuses are found to justify the horrible treatment given to muslims in those places.

Dear Sadya, does really Islam tell you to treat Muslims and non-muslins with similar respect and fairness?

Yes, it does. But of course up to a certain limit. Of course there are rules like muslim men marrying only muslim women or women who belong to the people of the book, of course there are certain borders.
But we are supposed to respect every human being equally.

But jsut becasue someone is muslim, it doesn't make him/her a saint.
I personally know many people, who are not muslims and still very good people, many of their deeds are what deeds of muslims should be.
And I'm sorry to say this, but I also know many muslims who unfortunately behave like non-muslims. But why blame Islam for that?
THat's the peoples fault, not the religions.

Should we now for example hate teh Judaism religion, jsut because they have some crazy groups like Zionists for example, which is not really Judaism anyway, but just togive an example. Or should we now hate all the Christians just becuase there were people like David Koresh? Wouldn't it be silly to blame Christianity for that? While it has got nothing to do with Christian religion itself.

Do I read some different Quran?

I have no idea what Quran you have. Maybe you have a translation done by a non-Muslim. Or mabye because you have already certain idea's in your head against Islam, and so are reading what you want to read or expect to read.

If you don't mind, and this is not to critisize you ro something, but just a sincere advice, you better ask things like these to someone well learnt. Who can better give you information. If you really are interested in undertstanding pure Islam.

Some of the idea's you have, I myself used to have, while I am raised as a Muslim, but I've never really been taught to understand Islam. Jsut to perform the rites and some little things, not much. Mostly traditional Islam..

I didn't understand either and most of the idea's I had about my own religion (!!!) were from western media, western view, and some of the misconceptions you have about Islam, in fact I myself had them too!
But a lot of it is based on nonsense. I do understand you having those feelings, but best thing is to get information of a reliable source, and objectively read about Islam to understand what it really says.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Then why are their victims civilians and non-government targets? Do you really feel that their actions are God-sanctioned self defense? If the solution is for Muslims to unite under this type of jihad, the future of Islam (and Muslims) is bleak.
[/QUOTE]

Not all attacks are done by muslims. I've seen pictures of Israeli's, dressed as "Palestinian fighters" killing Israeli's... One of the pics, in a goodclose up, you really see a necklace, with the David star on it.
I wish Iknew how to put an image up, I got it from one of emailgroups. And I'm not super with computers, I tried to copy it in image gallery, but don't succeed. Anyway, sometimes attacks are blamed on muslim groups.

And there are probably muslims themselves too, who maybe think they are doing right, but in fact are wrong. Why else are there muslim courts to punish criminals, if all muslims would be considered holy. We are not talking Israeli's religion here, we're talking Islam.

Up to today, it isn't 100% prooved that it was indeed a muslim group, that attacked the twin towers on 11 september, there were many other groups that had interests. There are hundreds of theories, no solid proove that it was a Muslim group or bin Laden.
You can't lable any terrost action in the world as being a "muslim attack" jsut because it's fashion to do that nowadays.

Sadya, you are talking against me or in my favor?
For me any religion, which says, that whoever rejects our dogma is a non-believer, ceases to be a religion.
I do not say that Quran asks you to kill non-believers, off course not, because there is only one such verse where Allah says something like…when the holy months are over kill them wherever you see them, smite their neck so and so.
Anyhow this is only one verse and does not make much sense.

Yes, Quran is dedicated to non-believers, because every third or fourth verse talks of them. Am I wrong?

Do you have courage to accept that your religious school deceives you? You must study Quran. Learning or reading will not reveal you the truth.

‘Remove them from where they have removed you’.
Do you condemn that Kashmir Hindus are brutally killed by your freedom fighters?
Kashmir was earlier a Buddhist land and earlier a Hindu ethnic land.
Chechnya was never a Chechen’s land. Read history. And as usual in any of yours so-called freedom struggle, first, all native Russians were brutally killed or compelled to leave.
Palestine, frankly I do not favor the Jew cause, but they are following ‘remove them from where they removed you’. …They have found some 74 years in BC history when Israel was a Jew territory. As per Quran you must support them.

Re your faith in Bin Laden and Taliban, no comments.

I read Quran translated by very rewarded Muslim translator.
(Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D.
Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan)

And off course, pls show a single verse where Allah says to treat Muslims and disbelievers equally and with similar respect!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by the speciALIst: *
AOA
i agree with you Wise Man....we were supposed to think about the unity of muslims just to make things good for ourselves and for other religions too.....miss AAG how did you think about our unity is against peace...if u think that muslims united will cause some serious troubles for peace then you are wrong absolutely....Islam itself is a religion of peace and humanity at its best(if implied exactly)....and i guess the mr.Yahudi you should also consider the facts that how Bin Laden type extremists are born ..what are the reasons behind it....i think you know this Newton's law that every action has got a reaction.....we muslims had no enemity with any other community but why we were being pressurised..tell me a single example of any disputed area in this world where any community other than muslims is being crushed(Kashmir,Palestine,Bosnia,Iraq????)....i don t say that this kind of reaction was right...its bad , really bad...but you must portrait the whole picture....anyways thats not Islam which such terrorists claim...terrorists have no religion.
problem lies in muslims but there is nothing wrong with our religion Islam.
[/QUOTE]

Too bad we live in a time when Murphys law dominates...

speciAList,

You mis-read my meaning. Did you miss the sentence in that post that said ...Goes for all peoples?

Maybe time Religion is left out of confrontations? And the people held responsible? Not Religion?

Wonder what the argument would be then?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
Every third or fourth verse in Quran condemns the disbelievers.
What wrong these people have done, if have followed these verses?
[/QUOTE]
Sadya Answered:-

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadya: *There is a difference between saying disbelievers will be punished by God and actually killing them for no other reason than their different believe. I haven't read anywhere, nor did I hear this from any muslim either, that it's oké to kill disbelievers just because they don't share your faith!
[/QUOTE]

Wake up! Sadya, Here are just a few verses for you to ponder on:

Sura 66:9 (fight against unbelievers and hypocrites)

"O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is hell - an evil refuge (indeed)."

“Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not” 2:216
Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory soon shall we give him a reward of great (value)" 4:74

“Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” 4:89

"Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home "4:95

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60

"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding" 8:65

"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" 9:29

"Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you" 9:52

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5

The essence; Make War, Fight, Kill, .....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
Some times I feel that Al Qaeda, Bin Laden & co. are real Muslims.
[/QUOTE]

...Well do you blame them? They are only doing what the Quran instructs them to do.

[quote]
...Well do you blame them? They are only doing what the Quran instructs them to do.
[/quote]

Your hatred of all things Islamic has no boundary, does it?

Was Timothy McVeigh also doing what the Bible instructed him to do? No, that's right, i thought not.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *

Sadya, you are talking against me or in my favor?

I thought we're just exchanging views on certain issues. Not talking against or in each others favors. We are having a healthy discussion, right? Or am I missing something?

I do not say that Quran asks you to kill non-believers, off course not, because there is only one such verse where Allah says something like…when the holy months are over kill them wherever you see them, smite their neck so and so.

What is the number of that verse? I'm no expert, but it's probably on the rules that during hadj time, there shouldn't be war or something.

Anyhow this is only one verse and does not make much sense.

No, it doesn't to us if we don't know when and why it came down. What's the chapter?
This is one of the reasons we have to study Quran/Ahadith with proper guidance.

Yes, Quran is dedicated to non-believers, because every third or fourth verse talks of them. Am I wrong?

There are many places where non-believers are being discussed, but not always every third or fourth verse! That's exageration.
History serves as an example, a lesson for the future. In the Quran many stories are found, about what happens to disbelievers, hypocrites, etc. They serve as an example how we shouldn't behave. There are also verses where there is described how good muslims should be and their rewards. There are verses with God's bounties. there is so much more informtaion in the Quran.

Yet you manage to only find verses "dedicated to non-believers".

Do you have courage to accept that your religious school deceives you? You must study Quran. Learning or reading will not reveal you the truth.

If I truly know, I'm being deceived, of course I would accept it. I had misconceptions myself in the past , I learnt some shocking things. And I'm not finished learning yet. I'm only at the beginning.
But we humans can never know everything 100%. YOu have to accept that too.

‘Remove them from where they have removed you’.

Do you condemn that Kashmir Hindus are brutally killed by your freedom fighters?

Depends on whom they are, if it's Hindu soldiers then it's different. It all depends on the situation.

BTW, this is a kind of question I"ve often heard non-muslims asking muslims, mostly on the Israel/Palestine issue, but I've never in my life heard non-muslims asking israeli's (or jews) if they condemn that Muslims are being brutally killed by their 'fight for freedom/justice/against terrorism', whatever name they give it each time.

Kashmir was earlier a Buddhist land and earlier a Hindu ethnic land.
Chechnya was never a Chechen’s land. Read history. And as usual in any of yours so-called freedom struggle, first, all native Russians were brutally killed or compelled to leave.

Palestine, frankly I do not favor the Jew cause, but they are following ‘remove them from where they removed you’. …They have found some 74 years in BC history when Israel was a Jew territory. As per Quran you must support them.

Even if things like that happened in the past, is that justification for the horrible treatment of Muslims today? What logics is that? That means, the few left over AMerican Indians have the right to brutally massacre the Americans that live their today, the Europeans who invaded their country and today are the inhabitants?
And the Jews left Palestine themselves, nobody removed them. they removed themselves to all corners of the world.

"And as usual in any of yours so-called freedom struggle, first, all native Russians were brutally killed or compelled to leave."

Like in Afghanistan, decades ago, when the Russians invaded them?

And off course, pls show a single verse where Allah says to treat Muslims and disbelievers equally and with similar respect!

Taken from Surah (60) Al_Mumtahana, chpt. 28;
verse 8;

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of you homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."

verse 9;
"Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them ( inthese circumstances), that do wrong."

Commentary verse 8: Even with Unbelievers, unless they are rampant and out to destroy us and our Faith, we should deal kindly and equitable, as is shown by our holy Prophet's (pbuh) own example.

Will this do for you, sir? I'm no expert, I still haven't read full translation of Quran yet. But this is one example I could find.

We are studying a religion of peace. And dear Sadya, I am sure you have read the efforts of Blits above.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (Al-Anfai)

I need nothing to add.

Is Quran not dedicated to disbelievers?

Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. (2:6)
Allâh has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allâh's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. (2:7)

This is just beginning and after Allah curses disbeliveers for being disbelievers. Do not you feel in the (2:7), that Allah himself has made them disbelievers? What is their fault?
And after, yes, in every third or fourth verse Allah finds reason to condemn the disbelievers. May be it is an exaggeration, but pls study Quran and you will find wrath of Allah against the poor disbelievers so often….!

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. (28:7)

In what sense the given verse is directed in favor of those who reject the Ayats, the disbelievers?
Anyhow, being not a scholar, I will not stick to this point.

What is Jazia tax?
Is it not the similar protection money that mafia racketeers collect from business circles in Bombay, Calcutta, Lahore and Karachi?

Re Kashmir, Chechnya, Palestine, off course, different medias talk differently, but you have outright rejected my suggestion to read history.

Those verses apply to certain situations. They are taken out of context.

Allah gives everyone a chance, then another, antoher, another, we keep messing up, until there is no turning back. There is a limit to everything.
We shoudl be thankful for the chances we still get from Allah to repent adn better ourselves. Allah doesn't owe us anything, we owe Him everything.

Say whatever you want, you are only seeing what you want/expect to see. It's such a pity.

And a waste of time.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *

Your hatred of all things Islamic has no boundary, does it?

.
[/QUOTE]

I think you have found their actual problem.....taking a single verse from Holy Quran and without considering its background and without knowing that under which circumstances it was said, mr this and mr that here are only trying to show their hatred ( due to unknown reasons )..............it seems more like Anti Islamic comaign than any kind of useful discussion........Allah!! show them the right path...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
We are studying a religion of peace. And dear Sadya, I am sure you have read the efforts of Blits above.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (Al-Anfai)

I need nothing to add.

Is Quran not dedicated to disbelievers?

Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. (2:6)
Allâh has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allâh's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. (2:7)

This is just beginning and after Allah curses disbeliveers for being disbelievers. Do not you feel in the (2:7), that Allah himself has made them disbelievers? What is their fault?
And after, yes, in every third or fourth verse Allah finds reason to condemn the disbelievers. May be it is an exaggeration, but pls study Quran and you will find wrath of Allah against the poor disbelievers so often….!

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. (28:7)

In what sense the given verse is directed in favor of those who reject the Ayats, the disbelievers?
Anyhow, being not a scholar, I will not stick to this point.

*Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. (28:7)

IMOH *

^^Nice…Good point AAG…:k:

Do you study the Quran?

<~~~~~~ NO.

Only read.

Arguements.

Truths.

Ideas.

And imagine ideals.

And I find the ^^ words an example of the grace of God.

^^ HAHA...

I get your point AAG...

^^ is nothing more than three arrows pointing upwards...They point to the thread above, they are not from any language, Arabic or otherwise...:)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
^^ HAHA...

I get your point AAG...

^^ is nothing more than three arrows pointing upwards...They point to the thread above, they are not from any language, Arabic or otherwise...:)
[/QUOTE]

Because God in his wisdom loved and granted grace to all peoples.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
We are studying a religion of peace. And dear Sadya, I am sure you have read the efforts of Blits above.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (Al-Anfai)

I need nothing to add.

Is Quran not dedicated to disbelievers?

Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. (2:6)
Allâh has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allâh's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. (2:7)

This is just beginning and after Allah curses disbeliveers for being disbelievers. Do not you feel in the (2:7), that Allah himself has made them disbelievers? What is their fault?
And after, yes, in every third or fourth verse Allah finds reason to condemn the disbelievers. May be it is an exaggeration, but pls study Quran and you will find wrath of Allah against the poor disbelievers so often….!

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. (28:7)

In what sense the given verse is directed in favor of those who reject the Ayats, the disbelievers?
Anyhow, being not a scholar, I will not stick to this point.

*Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. (28:7)

IMOH *
[/QUOTE]

"This is just beginning and after Allah curses disbeliveers for being disbelievers. Do not you feel in the (2:7), that Allah himself has made them disbelievers? What is their fault?"

Their fault is, that they were given many chances to repent, to open their hearts for the truth, yet they didn't. Allah gives a chance, another, antoher, etc. but once the cup is full.

And look at this Biblical verse before critising the Quran:

Verses taken from Romans 1;

18.God's anger is ervealed from heaven against all the sin and evil of the people whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known. 19. god punishes them, because what can be known about God isplain to them, for God himself made it plain. ......... 22They say they are wise, but they are fools; 23 instead of worshipping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortal human beings or birds or animals or reptiles. 24 And so God has given those peopel over to do the filthy things their hearts desire, and they do shameful tings with each other. ....... 26 Because they do this, God has given them over to shameful passions. ...........

And what about this Biblical verse: John 4:36; Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
....
Do not you feel in the (2:7), that Allah himself has made them disbelievers? What is their fault? ....
[/QUOTE]

God has given some freedom to human being, just like you walking around, talking etc and some He has decided. You have freedom to think, freedom to believe/disbelieve. God has told us in Quran that He does not like people who "opt" to not believe in His message, because those people CHOSE to be disbelievers THEN God put seals on their hearts.... makes sense?