Re: How can there be morals without religion?
If they had rationalized their own behaviours they would not have resorted to something that was so obviously forbidden by the religion. I believe that there are “universal laws” as far as morality is concerned.
No we are not talking about a Utopia here. We’re saying that when we have religion our morals are better than they would be if we had no religion.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
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Thanks for admitting you are wrong Ravage. (Gee this is easy) . I was helping you out of your mess where you take the islamic approach towards religion and try to make it inot something the whole world prescribes to. Absolutely not!!!
My points still stand. You are still implementing the basic false thorem that religion bears morality. Maybe for muslims...not for everyoone else, therefore, it is not a universal phenomenon and cannot be spoken of in terms of absolutes.
I may believe in GOD but I might not believe that without my god, there are no moral constructs. That is silly..and so primitive.
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haha.. and yet any attempt at substantiating your belief is beyond your capability.
Im not arguing from an Islamic standpoint. Show me where I used an Islamic reference or argued using Islam specific logic.
The only thing you offered as the alternative source of moral behaviour is instinct. I cite ferral children as example of immoral, instinctive behaviour.
I didnt say that there are 'no' moral constructs. the premise is correct, hedonism does not preclude moral behaviour, but includes a lot of immoral behaviour.
you my dear spoilt child, have nothing to offer. i can understand that but dont throw a tantrum about it.
utd: hedonism is not animalism.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
Yes, this is exactly what I am saying. Hence the premise of the article (first sentence) is proven wrong, where the writer says "where there is no religion, people become predisposed to commit all kinds of immoral acts"
I am not disagreeing with this as I said in my post “many religious people will be more moral than an every day Joe”. What I disagreed with was the absolute position taken by the author which is no-religion-no-morals. That is not correct, IMV.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
That is the point Ravage. Show me a proof that without religion there is hedonism. simple question...
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
I said it was illogical. To cite examples would be stupid because examples arent proofs. If there is only this material realm, then it is illogical to pursue anything but material happiness. That includes having relationships, obeying social customs in public and not running naked with wolves.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
^ exactly dear lad, the converse is also true. So in absence of proof, the converse is just as true, that, "absence of religion does lead to hedoism".
Absence of religion leads to freedom. Beacutiful innit..
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
no, I proved it without examples. and i think you might have made a typo up there.
maybe it wont lead you to hedonism if you're irreligious, but then you're just not remotely intelligent. especially since irreligion is often based on rational thought, the pursuit of material pleasure if our existence is strictly confined to the material sphere is the inescapable logical conclusion.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
^ hey lilytit!!..can you lay off the personal attacks and discuss it like a human being. You did not prove anything. By simply stating that absence of religion can lead to hedoism is just your belief. I believe that Absence of religion doesn;t lead to hedonism but leads to freedom.
"this material realm" is a religious concept. Not a universally accept one. To prove that without religion there is hedonism because we are living in this corruptable material realm, is trying to prove the concept through circular logic. But since you are coming from a religious perspective, it is understandable. All of it is circular logic. :)
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
yeah, even though my 'attack' wasnt directed at you because I dont know if you're religious Im guessing it wasnt far off. I havent simply stated it, I have debated any argument you have put forward, including instinct as the source of morality and varying morality across peoples. this is not a religious belief, because its not based on religion, atleast for me.
'corruptable' is something you attach to my words. let me rephrase myself. any thoughts of an afterlife or an existence beyond a material existence I consider to be a religious, faith based thought, because there is no proof for it. without belief in such religious thoughts we would only believe that material existence is all there is. under those circumstanes, it is illogical to pursue anything but material happiness.
it isnt circular logic, although I understand if its hard to grasp.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
No you have not debated your arguments you keep parroting the wrong assertions over and over again.
the biggest problem is your absolute statement that absence of religion leads to hedonism. Everything else cascades from there.If psuedo-intellectuality was white cream...you would be a kabuki dancer. :)
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
just because you dont agree with them doesnt mean they're wrong, unless you offer anything as counterargument. dont get bitter.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
The suicide bomb performs the act in order to be rewarded in paradise.
An example of following religion for the purpose of pleasure.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
hedonism is material pleasure. hedonism precludes thoughts about afterlife and whatnot. clearly since his pleasure doesnt come in this material world, it isnt hedonism.
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an ethical doctrine that asserts that pleasure or happiness is the sole good in life.
www.humanities.eku.edu/Glossary.htm
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but ofcourse he may do it because he finds pleasure in murdering people the same religion as those who murdered his family. that is immoral, hedonistic, but not religiously motivated.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
??
People would buy more vibrators and T.V.'s if religion didn’t exist?
The pleasure would come from the thougts you have in this life of the afterlife.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
^ Keep adding qualifiers 
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
see this post here:
if you want to prove that suicide bombing is wrong because its hedonistic, you’re taking the long route for it. however, hedonism in its usual sense precludes non-material pleasure, as you can see from this, the often mentioning of ‘senses’ and ‘material’:
as far as vibrators and tvs go, those are probably increasingly rare in increasingly religious circles, depending on whether that religion objects to them.
mats: i can imagine how frustrating it must be for you
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
When what two members of the family, both raised with same religion turn out be as different as day and night? e.g., Osama Bin Laden?? ok, wrong example, he is an arab. But what about other people? It is generally accepatable in Pakistani society for a guy to fk around, but a girl is called names if she sleeps with her boy friend. double moral standards, even with religion present.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
thats sad madhanee. men should be held at the same standards of morality that women are, and that is what most religions tend to do. did i say that the mere presence (and not practice) of religon ensures morality or consistent moral standards? or that religious people arent misguided or immoral?
in your example, the religious judgement would be to condemn both
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
"Monogamy" among animals, did I miss something here. Whats next, another farcical theory regarding animals having their own institutions of higher learning staffed with highly qualified tenured professors, intra and inter regional trade, League of Nations, whole socio-economic systems.
Somebody has taken the "Animal Farm" concept a bit too far.
Re: How can there be morals without religion?
Hi!
Baytertebi mein bhi aik terteib houti hai.
essi terhan,la mazhabyat mei bhi moral values hein; yanay, if some one does not know about current muzhaeibs; so it is not necessary that that person would not have morals; because all religions are actually a code of life; and religion such as islam is 100% eainay fitrat.
Every one has ZAMEIR; so every one knows what is good or what is bad. for example all those young married couple to whom no one ever tells or give education about sex, but they really can figure out themselves. This what i know from our asian culture where we do not provide such an education, and parents are shy to transfer to their children even on the first day of their marraige.
People who have morals treat their wives carefully and many times highly religious people behave very savage and immoral way. I have given this example to actually put my view of morality without religion in a nut shell.
Man is a social animal, we all know;. how is he different from animal? more morals if some one has , more civilized the person is, more human he/she is.
Any one who is a human being and have less moral character, it means less civilized that person is, and is more animal than human. to such person we still say he is animal, etc etc
morality comes with being civilized and a person becomes more human in nature by being civilized ,by having high moral character. This characteristic is basis of someone, whether, being animal kind or human. Every one carries it in him and her, owing to having self SAMEIR. so a person can have moral character even though he/she does not believe in any religion. And a sheik with too much religious power can be without morals for example I do not the name but one of the shieks is called mulla sandwitch on such grounds.