How can there be morals without religion?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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*In societies where there is no religion, people become predisposed to commit all kinds of immoral acts. For instance, a religious person would never take a bribe, gamble, feel envy, or lie because he would know that he would have to account for these actions in the hereafter. Yet, an irreligious person is prone to doing all these things. It is not enough for a man to say, “I am an atheist but I don’t take bribes”, or “I am an atheist but I don’t gamble”, because a man who does not fear Allah and who does not believe that he is going to give an account of himself in the hereafter may do any one of these things when the situation or conditions change. A person who says, “I am an atheist but I do not commit fornication” may do so at some place where fornication is considered normal. Or a person who says that he does not take bribes may say, “My son is sick and about to die, therefore I have to take the bribe”, if he has no fear of Allah. In a state of irreligiousness, even theft may be considered legitimate under certain conditions. For instance, people of no religion may not consider taking towels or decorative accessories from hotels and recreation centres as stealing to their own way of understanding. *

*However, a religious person does not display such immorality, because he fears Allah and does not forget that Allah knows his intentions as well as his thoughts. He acts sincerely and avoids sin. *

*A person who is distant from religion may say “I am an atheist but I am forgiving. I feel neither vengeance nor hate,” but one day some untoward event may cause him to lose his self-control and display the most unexpected behaviour. He may attempt to kill or injure someone, because the morality he adopts is one that changes according to the environment and conditions of the place in which he lives. *

Yet, one who believes in Allah and in the hereafter never deviates from his good morals, whatever the conditions or the environment may be. His morality is not “variable” but immutable. Allah refers to the superior morals of religious people in His verses:

Those who keep faith with Allah and do not break their agreement; those who join what Allah has commanded to be joined and are afraid of their Lord and fear an evil Reckoning; those who are steadfast in seeking the face of their Lord, and attend to their salat (regular prayer) and give alms from what We have given them, secretly and openly, and stave off evil with good, it is they who will attain the Ultimate Abode (Surat ar-Ra’d: 20-22)

(Harun Yahya “quick gasp of faith”)

I found this piece rather interesting. Wonder what you guppies think. I’ll share my views when I see where the rest of you stand.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

Practically speaking, I think the basic premise of the article is flawed. People rationalize their own behavior. All the above behavior may be deemed acceptable in their minds - whether they are religious or not.

Religion and morality are not dependent on each other. Religion may trigger a better sense of morality in some people, yes, but there are no absolutes.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

MQ: Your first sentence alone is filled with misconceptions. Bribery aka bakshish was thriving in the Ottomon empire, Pakistan is filled with Rishwat khors (try getting a phone line or a drivers license). Hell you even have to bribe a judge just so that he can punnish you so you can get on with your life.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

actually the premise is correct. in the absence of some sort of religion, hedonism is the logical philosophy. anything tying you to morality is either remnants of religion or social pressure. while certain people find pleasure in being moral, mostly for the sake of others,
barring that what logic is there to being moral in private?

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

^ not necessarily...there is no logic in the jump to hedoism in absence of religion. It could also be a darwinian phenomenon. Social structures and what you can call moral outgrowth based on instinctive feel. Many animal groups have highly evolved social structures and what would seem moral code built in. Monogamy, teamwork, protection of the young, even codes of justice. IF god created them..I am assuming he did, why did he program it in their being and not in ours, and sen tus scripture which can be argued daily on gupshup?

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

BTW I dont mean to change the subject but Club Hedonism rocks!!!!

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

I find no reason to read further. The theocratic States and systems are most corrupt in the world.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

[quote]

^ not necessarily...there is no logic in the jump to hedoism in absence of religion. It could also be a darwinian phenomenon. Social structures and what you can call moral outgrowth based on instinctive feel. Many animal groups have highly evolved social structures and what would seem moral code built in. Monogamy, teamwork, protection of the young, even codes of justice. IF god created them..I am assuming he did, why did he program it in their being and not in ours, and sen tus scripture which can be argued daily on gupshup?

[/quote]

certain instinctive behaviour is programmed into us. females for example are more likely to be monogamous, through a biological mechanism. it is however ridiculous to say that any instinctive behaviour is moral behaviour, or that all moral behaviour lies in our instincts. a lot of instinctive actions are immoral, a lot of moral actions arent instinctive.

a lot of human development occurs from fighting off instincts. it is not in our instincts to clothe ourselves. it is not in our instincts to abhor eating human flesh. read on ferral children to see how moral humans brought up purely on instincts behaved.

As for your question why he didnt program all moral behaviour into us, any one setting is sufficient to answer your question. So, assuming this is a test, then He didnt make us all automatically moral because thats the point of it.

in the absence of religion hedonism becomes the logical philosophy because why would anyone want to pursue anything but pleasure/happiness. ofcourse we wouldnt gain much pleasure from being publicly immoral, or going against your instincts (sometimes), but barring that what would keep you from following your baser instincts?

edit: when I say hedonism, I mean it in a sense that allows preaching religion to be hedonistic.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

I dont think what you quoted was the basic premise… I think it was this instead.

In societies where there is no religion, people become predisposed to commit all kinds of immoral acts

I agree though that a ‘religious’ person might still take a bribe. But then again if that person did take such a bribe- he would no longer be religious - assuming we go by the exact defintion as is stressed in the article.right?

verizon-- Jee read it again.These are not my words.And dont you dare go off topic! Again we’re talking about religious in the strict sense of the word.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

I didn’t want to limit the discussion to either Pakistan or Islam only. Because if you look at Pakistan’s or muslims in Pakistan, the whole argument is a wash. There is definitely religion in Pakistan, which is Islam, and there are all kinds of moral defects in the society as a whole… where bribe, lies and envy is commonplace (not sure about gamble). So, the link the writer is trying to create is not there, unless the writer is thinking about some utopia.

Now, if you take this line, you are trying to define “religious”, and anyone who doesn’t fit your mold will be kicked out. We are saying that anyone who is not moral (in your definition) is automatically not religious. This is a dicey preposition. I am sure you have seen many people who strictly follow all rituals of their religion (e.g. Islam), have long beards, offer salah, roza etc… and still every now and then, will lie or offer bribes to get things done. Does that nullify their religiousness?

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

I wouldn’t even go into the rest of your comment but am gladly laughing at the contradiciton above. On one hand it is ridiculous to say that instinctive beahviour is moral behaviour…but you canot say for sure if all instictive actions are moral..therefore, they might be moral. Q.E.D …see how easy logic is. :slight_smile:

“in the absence of religion hedonism becomes the logical philosophy because why would anyone want to pursue anything but pleasure/happiness. ofcourse we wouldnt gain much pleasure from being publicly immoral, or going against your instincts (sometimes), but barring that what would keep you from following your baser instincts?”

^^ what??

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

now that I’ve fixed it. I never said all instinctive behaviour is immoral, thus the example of biological tendency to be monogamous in women at the front. some instinctive actions are moral, a lot arent. Some moral actions are instinctive, a lot arent. wheres the contradiction?

what Im saying is instincts and morality chart two different regions of behaviour, some of which may overlap. It is fallacious to say that one can substitute for, or explain, the other.

I gave a specific example of humans brought up on instincts, where they did not exhibit all of what we term as moral behaviour. (ferral children).

and so yes, to reiterate, hedonism does become the logical philosophy in the absence of religion.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

It is still not a logical leap to suggest that in absence of religion there is hedoism. There is no proof for that theorem. I can easily say that due to religion, there is hedonism because of suppression of the very instinctive feelings that are ingrained into us by God/maker/creator.

If there was no religion, things would have balanced out as they always do in nature and that is more likely to happen than some supposed scripture prescribing morality that is not, a) universally based across mankind or b) is open to interpretation.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

Well I know that the article is about Islam, but lets say that it means religion as in any other type of religion as well. If we keep it to just islam - we wont be able to get anywhere with the article - because yes if Pakistan comes to mind er best leave it at that. I dont think all these moral defects wouldnt exist at all if there was religion- I just think they might be less.

No Im not. I think without religion, our definition of “moral” would also change. It would mingle with what matsui and ravage are discussing.

And the people who keep long beards , offer salah etc but lie and accept bribes - in my definition of the word- they get cancelled out. Because they knowingly do something wrong.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

[quote]

It is still not a logical leap to suggest that in absence of religion there is hedoism. There is no proof for that theorem. I can easily say that due to religion, there is hedonism because of suppression of the very instinctive feelings that are ingrained into us by God/maker/creator.

If there was no religion, things would have balanced out as they always do in nature and that is more likely to happen than some supposed scripture prescribing morality that is not, a) universally based across mankind or b) is open to interpretation.

[/quote]

you understand what hedonism is right? pursuit of material pleasure as one's sole goal. how can there be conscious pursuit of pleasure because of religion, when your religion denies you that pleasure. yes, you may say that suppressed people may do those actions anyway, but that would not be hedonism.

religion may beget immorality, but not hedonism.

ofcourse what would happen in the absence of religion and a lot of morality is just as good a guess from either of us. being a religious person myself though I dont think thats going to happen.

however, give me a reason why in the absense of religion and social pressure people would follow that part of morality that is not instinctive, unless it gives them pleasure?

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

Its in your mind… that they cancel out. In their minds, it does not, because they have (most probably) rationalized their own behavior. What you find as immoral, they may have defined as part of life. Its not limited to Islam either. There are enough immoral acts committed amongst clergy in Christianity. Some are known, and some are unknown. Same is true for all religious figures in all religious. Thats why I said, that there are no absolutes. Yes, many religious people will be more moral than an every day Joe. And some may not be as moral. We are not talking about a Utopia here, are we?

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

^ change the wording from Religion to Islam. You argument, as per my points a) and b) in the previous post stand. All relgiions do not prescribe the leap to hedonism in absence of scripture, maybe islam does. And that is faith. But it is not a universal truth or logic, as you put it. It is muslim logic.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

there is no harm in admitting you’re wrong. isnt ‘freedom’, the ‘pursuit of happiness’ a non-Muslim, American mantra, instead of Islamic? Hedonism is the pursuit of material happiness, and that is prescribed in your constitution. dont deny stuff for the sake of denying it.

so yeah, be adulterous if thats what makes you happy. your constitutional right to do so is nicely enshrined. and unless it makes you unhappy, or unless you have a religious reason to avoid it, you will do it.

your point a, that morality is not the same across the world, can be explained through the fact that religion is not the same across the world. point b, that interpretations differ, thereby notions of moral behaviour differ. you can eat your father in venezuela once hes dead, not in India.

neither of your points impact my argument in any way.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

Thanks for admitting you are wrong Ravage. (Gee this is easy) :rolleyes:. I was helping you out of your mess where you take the islamic approach towards religion and try to make it inot something the whole world prescribes to. Absolutely not!!!

My points still stand. You are still implementing the basic false thorem that religion bears morality. Maybe for muslims…not for everyoone else, therefore, it is not a universal phenomenon and cannot be spoken of in terms of absolutes.

I may believe in GOD but I might not believe that without my god, there are no moral constructs. That is silly..and so primitive.

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Re: How can there be morals without religion?

Very primitive. Religion is not what separates man from animal Ravage.