Homosexuality.

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
1

Its commonly accepted as a natural lifestyle in the west, and even in lots of eastern countries. Most religions deplore this ‘lifestyle’, and most quarters of society call it a disease. With the west’s continuing approval of homosexuality, its become a norm for them…but how normal is it?

Perhaps they can get a lesson from some animals in this regard, while I saw while watching a Discovery Channel program about ‘Cheetahs’. It showed how the cheetahs survive in the jungles of Africa. The episode revolved around a pack of 6 cubs (3 males, 3 females) all siblings, who had been abandoned by their mother at a very young age, and hence had no advanced knowledge of anything, and had to develop every instinct on their own.

A good example was when the cubs, now grown, had to fend for themselves and catch food on their own. It was funny to see a cheetah catch up to a deer, swat it down, and then not know how to kill it. What was even funnier was how all 6 of the large siblings sat around the live deer for a good 10 minutes before they figured out how to bite into it and kill it.

Next was a lesson in sexual relations. One of the females was in heat. Her brother cheetahs noticed that, and tried to mate with her. According to the narrator of the show, the natural mating instinct of the male cheetah brings it to its sister into a relationship that is obviously incestious. But the cheetah’s profound instinct against incestousness tells it there is something wrong, and it pulls away from its sister.

To me, this is the best form of learning for a person. Instinct. Humans have grown to classify homosexuality as a lifestyle, and if it is one, then why dont they classify incest as a lifestyle too?
Well, from the example above, one would say, hey, even animals dont engage in incest, so how can u make it a lifestyle for humans?
Well, on the same token, Ive never seen any animal engage in homosexuality either. Then why classify it as a lifestyle in humans?

For something that has the ability to produce nothing but one of the deadliest diseases out there, why is such behavior classified as normal, and yet at the same time cousin marriages are frowned upon and considered as incestous?

2

Well, on the same token, Ive never seen any animal engage in homosexuality either. Then why classify it as a lifestyle in humans?<<

Homosexuality is common in the animal kingdom too - more specifically, among mammals and birds. Different species of monkeys, apes, sheep, giraffe, dolphins, whales, seals, deer, elephants, hyenas, kangaroos, bats, and quite a few species of birds exhibit homosexual behavior. Ask someone who has lived in a place with a lot of langurs - homosexuality among male langurs is extremely common.

For something that has the ability to produce nothing but one of the deadliest diseases out there, why is such behavior classified as normal<<

homosexuality doesnt produce AIDS, but unprotected homosexual contact sure does spread AIDS at a rate much higher than from unprotected heterosexual contact.

and yet at the same time cousin marriages are frowned upon and considered as incestous?<<

Cousin marriages over generations tend to bring up all the recessive disorders in the limited genepool of the family - this may include esoteric debilitating disorders like haemophilia, thalessemia, grave's disease, etc, but may more commonly result in very high risks to diseases like diabetes, cardiovascular disorders, asthma etc. An inbred offspring is less likely to survive than one conceived from a wider genepool, and hence, it is possible that the tendency for incest has been weeded out thru the survival of the fittest process.

A point which may be relevent here is that even assuming AIDS is a consequence of homosexuality, the person who suffers is the one who indulges in the act. Whereas, in cousin marriages, it is the future generations that are affected for no deed of theirs'.

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Queer...homosexuality in animals is NOT common. As a matter of fact, its non-existent.

The long list of animals u put up engage in courtship acts, but the act of sex is NEVER involved in any of them. What is defined as homosexuality in humans, in animals is limited to kissing, nuzzling, sharing the same nest with same sex animals, raising kids with same sex animals, and in most cases, just being non-aggressive towards each other. Because in the wild kingdom, its a dog eat dog world. Hence, if two animals of the same sex and species get along well, that behavior is termed as homosexuality. But there is absolutely NO animal in the world that engages in intercourse with a same sex partner.

Homosexuality facilitates the production and spread of AIDS, and this behavior is primarily responsible for introducing it to the human race.

As far as cousin marriages are concerned, Ive heard plenty of medical narratives on how it affects offsprings. Well, if that were to be true, the east would be full of retarded and diseased people....because cousin marriages have been common in the east for eons.

There might be some truth to the medical fears relayed by doctors regarding cousin marriages, but certainly not worthy of making it comparable to homosexuality.

[This message has been edited by Akif (edited February 26, 2001).]

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[quote]
Originally posted by Akif:
*Queer...homosexuality in animals is NOT common. As a matter of fact, its non-existent.
*
[/quote]

it is not non-existent. i have seen a homosexual pair of dogs in our hostel. in fact, we were damned surprised when we saw it.

5

A google search for "homosexuality in animals" brought up some interesting information (apparently, there really are animals that engage in classic hetersexual sex), The following tidbit looks to the validity of Akif's original argument:

[quote]
I usually point out in my human sexuality class, that although animals do engage in homosexual behavior, it is not particularly informative to look to animals for information about what is "normal". Many (most?) human behaviors are unparralled among animals, but does that make them abnormal? That is, we fly airplanes, drive cars, sit on chairs, wear socks and engage in 1000s of other behaviors which animals don't. So should we consider such behaviors abnormal?

Also animals are so varied in their behavior that we can pick almost any sexual behavior and find an animal which supports this particular behavior as "normal". Here is a list that I share with my human sexuality students (from Nevid and Rathus, Feb 1992 reported in a instructors manual)

Though wolves and beavers generally keep a mate for life, most mammals copulate with multiple partners thoughout their sexual careers. Is nature serving as a model for promiscuity?
Rhinoceri mate continiously for one and a half hours. The male ejaculates numerious times with his two-feet-long penis. For chimpanzees, it is all over in less than 30 seconds. Which scenario provides the "natural" model for humans?
The female Praying Mantis decapitates the male and eats his head during copulation as a form of fodder. (His nether parts continue to thrust). Is nature saying that males should literally lose their heads in love? Should sex literally consume us? Is the Mantis' nature a wry comments on the value of male's brains?
The male porcupine will thoroughly douse the female with uring before mating. (No comment).
Cobras of both sexes strike at each other for an hour or more before mating. Is nature advocating S & M?
Marie Helweg-Larsen, Ph.D. [From TIPS list of March '97]
[/quote]

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited February 26, 2001).]

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This is a funny way of looking to justify heterosexual behavior. Why not look at animals for everything they do? Their social habitat and other preferences, etc. I wonder if the idea of polygamy also came from observing the animals?

Homosexuality is as normal as the sun rising from the east. If some have problem with that, that is OK. Sexual orientation of animals (including humans) is not biological or chemical, but a conglomerate of multiple effects. The divine books only give theological and religious reasons for why homosexuality is wrong. They failed to provide “logical” explanation.

7

Astrofan..

Im not sure this is a good example to counter with, especially since this seems to be coming from some teacher. I think he fails to differentiate between instinctive behavior and modified behavior.

Animals, unlike humans, do not have the ability to think and draft stuff on their own. They have been kept oblivious to most of the realities of life. They dont have any knowledge of death. Their instinct dictates their lives for them.
Humans on the other hand, have the ability to think and change behaviors. The characteristics that humans share with animals should be limited to instinct. Its what else humans do that requires mindwork and modification.

Humans and animals share the characteristics of searching for food, eating, drinking, sleeping and reproduction. They both have preset ways of doing all these chores, but the features are common.

Anything beyond that is out of the forte of animals. But humans go way beyond that. That extra power that the humans have enables them to "fly airplanes, drive cars, sit on chairs, wear socks and engage in 1000s of other behaviors which animals don't".

8

Queer:

[quote]
Cousin marriages over generations tend to bring up all the recessive disorders in the limited genepool of the family
[/quote]

This is interesting, and I've heard it a few times, but are there any figures which support it? Cousins marriages happen more in rural areas of Pakistan but if anything they are fitter and stronger than people from other parts.

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interesting discussions and fund of knowledge, though I smell gay’ism!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

:ccol:

10

Well, I'm not going by books or anything, I relate what I personally have observed couple of times - like ZZ, I have witnessed homosexual behaviour among dogs couple of times. Was that a modified behaviour? I don't know.

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But there is absolutely NO animal in the world that engages in intercourse with a same sex partner.<

Akif, all the animals i mentioned have been observed indulging in sodomy or climaxing sexually upon stimulation from a member of the same sex of their species. I have personally seen monkeys having homosexual intercourse.

Homosexuality facilitates the production and spread of AIDS, and this behavior is primarily responsible for introducing it to the human race.<

Once again, homosexuality doesnt produce AIDS. To say so is stupidity. Homosexuality introduced AIDS to humanity? I'm curious. How was that?

if that were to be true, the east would be full of retarded and diseased people....because cousin marriages have been common in the east for eons.<

East? South asia and the middle-east, maybe. Even within these regions, there are plenty of communities that eschew cousin marriages. Interestingly, cousin marriages are quite a recent thing to have shown "marked" differences in those who practice it. Cousin marriages arent something natural - it is the consequence of the caste system and its variants - the pride in one's lineage crap.
When I say "marked", what I mean is, given the socio-economic differences in the communities we are comparing, i.e., the west and the third world, a lot of factors which affect health directly are not the same. Hence, it would be extremely difficult to trace the effect brought about due to inbreeding alone.

There might be some truth to the medical fears relayed by doctors regarding cousin marriages, but certainly not worthy of making it comparable to homosexuality.<

what's it that is so bad about homosexuality?

Xtreme,

Too many factors involved in the comparison of a city guy and a villager, inbreeding is just one of them. It could just mean, a healthy villager would have probably been healthier hadnt it been for his inbreeding.

12

Well, as far as homosexuality and AIDS go, my understanding is that origin of virus is still somewhat unclear. The closest they have come to is the association of it with monkeys who can get infected by SIV (a virus of similiar family group as of HIV).

Secondly, risk of HIV infection is highest among homosexual partners (given that one of the partner is infected by it) compared to hetrosexual partners but homosexual intercourse itself does not produce HIV.

13

Queer,

or it could mean that healthy inbreeders don't get introduced to recessive disorders, so it could work both ways.

This science doesn't seem to be every exact that's why I think some conclusive studies would be helpful.

I'm not in favour of cousin marriages BTW, I'm just not convinced by some of the theories being bandied about.

14

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by NYAhmadi:Homosexuality is as normal as the sun rising from the east.

Brother with all due respect - i don't think sooo!
The discussion here is sex - wot is sex ? sex is reproduction - making babies if you wish! And that is the only reason, logically not emotionally, for sex!!!
If homosexuality was a natural thing to do then men would have babies!???! why is it that only women can have babies!

For someone to regard homosexuality as natural one must also regard all other acts like rape , murder, terrorism as natural acts for humans to perform weather you like it or not cos in the mind of the rapist or murder what he/she is doing is right- same way as a homosexual thinks what he/she does is right though society may not think so!!

A screw driver is made for one reason and one reason only- to fasten screws but people also use screw drivers for alterier reasons too e.g. leverage tool, stabing tool etc etc - does that make a point? a vague one maybe!

And please guys lets not make comparisons between humans and animals - the difference between humans and animals is the difference between the earth and the sky and i would seriously like someone to tell me otherwise!

And so how did AIDS get into humanity if it wasn't for homosexuality? why is it that AIDS is more rampant in homosexuals than in Heterosexuals? why is it that unprotected sex between man and woman produces babies and unprotected sex between homosexuals produces sexually transmitted diseases?

Again no offence intended!

15

Animals, unlike humans, do not have the ability to think and draft stuff on their own.

At genetic level humans and chimps are atleast 98% identical and cognitive studies wid chimpz and arangutans have proven that they have humanlike insightful thinking style. It has also been found that in orangutans and humans the brain area specializsed for language is similiar. So these animals are even capable of developing linguistic skills. An orangutan named Chantak in Atlanta Georgia not just learned sign language, he also invented some vocabulary of his own(which has never been taught to him) by combining some signs.

...and ofcourse emotion like jealousy, happiness, fear, deception has been observed among these animals. They lie, decieve and even plan things just like human beings:)...and yea the burial of their deadones has been observed among some animal too....

and as for as homosexuality is concerned, gross it may sound but mother nature seems to keep an open mind about it...out of 2000 known species 450 practice homosexuality. And some animals like penguins, bears, greylag geese don't meet merely for brief encounters, but form long term bonds, sometimes mating for yrs or even for life.

Sighz @ Mother Nature

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At genetic level humans and chimps are atleast 98% identical and cognitive studies wid chimpz and arangutans have proven that they have humanlike insightful thinking style.

They have the ability to grasp things better than other animals...not in comparison to humans. In other words, if they were never stimulated by human experimentors, they would have never achieved this 'success'

Parrots have the ability to recognize language as well. Thats only after they are taught about it. And the ability to 'invent' some vocabulary is consequential, not initiative.

...and ofcourse emotion like jealousy, happiness, fear, deception has been observed among these animals. They lie, decieve and even plan things just like human beings:)...and yea the burial of their deadones has been observed among some animal too....<<<

All these are instinctive behaviors and have been around since baba adam da wela....and are related to the two prime activities, or perhaps the only two activities animals are always involved in....eating and reproduction.

and as for as homosexuality is concerned, gross it may sound but mother nature seems to keep an open mind about it...out of 2000 known species 450 practice homosexuality.<<<<

From all the sources that Ive read, the characteristic of 'homosexuality' does not involve sexual intercourse. It is confined to amorous behavior towards each other, but never leading to intercourse. :)

[This message has been edited by Akif (edited February 27, 2001).]

17

i donno where you have read that stuff Akif.....but as being a student of anthropology i am giving you straight scientific facts...now its up to you...take em or leave em:)

...and about the intercourse, it has been observed that same gender sexual activity among animals encompasses a wide range of forms. Girraffes not just do necking but also entwine their bodies until both partners become sexually aroused. Dolphins, both hetrosexual and homosexuals engage in face to face encounters. And animals like elphants and monkeys practice mounting and there are some monkeys who even go a step further and raise that affection often by kissing while assuming coital position.

But the more interesting homosexual activity among these animals is the form where this activity goes beyond mere sexual gratification.
They develop long term unions and bonds...isn't that very much human like:) greylag geeze pair wid their same-sex partner for life....and among penguins these unions lasts for like 5 to 6 yrs....

and this is not yellow journalism:)these are proven scientific facts...

ok enuff facts from moi...i am out:)

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oh just one last fact i forgot to mention:)

yes, incest is very much common among these animals....bears and someother mammals bring their young ones into homosexual and icestuous unions....

now i am out for sure....

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Lets not compare humans to animals. We are different. In one way it is good and another it is bad. I find it BAD and so do most other people i know. Weather animals do have homosexual sex is irrelevent.

All i have to say, put all the homosexual men on one beautiful island in the pacific with all the luxuries in the world possible. Leave them there and dont bring any women into that enviroment. Similarly put all lesbian women on another. They can do whatever they want. Lets see how long they survive. If they do survive and then, and only then will be belive that homosexuality is natural. I mean it will be fun all the gay ppl right, a beautiful island full of gay men where there is no discrimination and so on....

Are all the gay ppl willing to take this test. Ohh and this way, if there are gay genes, we will get rid of them from the human gene pool... The next step for 'evolution'.....

20

This was never the right approach to discussing homosexuality. All animals act in different ways. Male lions when they take over a pride kill all the young, probably so the lionesses come into heat again sooner.

Some predators eat their own off-spring unless mama fights them off pretty fearlessly.

Homosexuality can be considered ok in San Fransisco because guys there wish to fondle each other's bums in public and it's considered alright by the authorities. In some conservative societies, like Catholic and Muslim, there are religious reasons why it is considered wrong.

What animals do is neither here nor there.