History of Pakistan

[Ali_Syed]

We have got a dilemma, on the one end we have Pakistani history books which begin from ghauri and ghaznavi and on the other hand I feel that I get the notion from Indians as if all areas of India have been parts of the same empires. I’ll be discussing the history of Pakistan in this thread based upon Ahmed dani’s history of Pakistan. He is a renowned historian of Pakistan who spent all his life trying to decipher the history of the region.

[calypsodc]

Re: History of Pakistan

What does this historian have to say about Raja Dahir? I believe that he is demonized by the Pakistanis as a tyrant but the hindu sindhis I have met in India say he was a victim not the villain as portrayed by the muslims. Here is some alternate theories: The Character of Raja Dahir
Some people make slanderous accusations about Raja Dahir in order to provide a justification for the bad deeds of their heros. Let us examine some of these few accusations, the principal ones of which are as follows:

1. He married his sister

2. He imprisoned and robbed some Arab people.

3. He abused Buddhists and non-Brahmins.

4. He was a decadent hedonist and a tyrant.

Observe that it is the work of every group that has been the victor to slander the vanquished party, to defame them, and thus to provide a justification, even though is is their behavior that is most unjust and diabolical.. many such examples exist in history. History has often been written by those in the pay of the victors.

[four specific examples of victors’ version of rewriting history skipped for brevity]

Let us carefully examine each of the allegations against Raja Dahar in turn.

1. Forget sisters, Hindu Brahmins consider marrying their cousins improper. So the accusation that he married his sister appears to be fallacious. The evidence offered for this accusation is that he refused to give his sister’s hand to some petty chieftain. But everyone knows that Hindus were endogamous within castes and status. Thus if he refused to allow his sister’s wedding to someone of a lower caste, is it reasonable to say that he had done so to marry his own sister? It is an ill-intentioned, bald lie.

2. The second allegation against him that has been made is that he had some gifts, which the Arab ruler was sending to the King of Ceylon, pirated, and the Arab sailors, arrested. There is also no evidence offered here either — to show that Raja Dahar did such a deed. There was plenty of piracy in those days. It is entirely possible that some pirates did this, but what possible advantage could a great king like Raja Dahar derive from such petty piracy? To make this a pretext for an invasion is entirely fraudulent and merely slanderous.

History states that even before the successful conquest of Sindh, the Arabs attacked 14 times — what was their justification for these attacks? Is it that the attacks on Samarkand, Bukhara, Morocco, Spain also to get compensated for something?

One cannot hide the true facts of history. It is clear that the Arab rulers, like all imperialist powers, had the goal of colonizing other nations. If we regard Roman, Mongolian, British and French imperialists wrong and tyrannical, how then can we call similar action by Arabs fair, and not merely fair but in the glory of Islam? Does the respect for Islam increase by such actions or is it slandered?

3. The third allegation that is made against him is that he was cruel towards Buddhists and other non-Hindus — but we can’t find evidence of this either. It is a historical fact that when Raja Chandersen, brother of Raja Chuch, reigned, he encouraged Buddhism. He gave special concessions to Buddhists bhikshus and monks. It is also no secret that the Brahmins can be religiously bigoted even more than Mullahs. Their actions eliminated Buddhism in much of India. But Sindh was that country where Buddhism flourished. Their presence is a testament to the liberalness of Raja Dahar. During his reign, two governors were Buddhists. Not only that, but an Arab Muslim Mohammed Alafi and his whole tribe, who were fleeing persecution of Banu Umayas, was granted asylum by Raja Dahar. Raja Dahar was so generous with them that they were permitted to stamp coins which bore Alafi’s name on one face. Examples of such generosity are rare indeed in history.

Accusing such a generous minded king of being prejudiced, made as it is by people whose own history is a testament to narrow-mindedness and bigotry, is nothing short of malicious.

4. The fourth charge laid against Raja Dahar is that he was hedonistic and cruel. Heaven knows what the intent of the slanderers is in using such terms. Who is the real criminal? The ones who sent two daughters of the Raja as a “gift”, the adulterer who married their mother forcibly, those who considered it proper to make Sindhi women slaves and have illicit relations with them — such rapists, the ones who sold thousands of Sindhis into slavery; or the one who gave his life defending his country? True History About Raja Dahir | mysticspeak

[muqawwee123]

Re: History of Pakistan

@calypsodc

What does this historian have to say about Raja Dahir? I believe that he is demonized by the Pakistanis as a tyrant but the hindu sindhis I have met in India say he was a victim not the villain as portrayed by the muslims. Here is some alternate theories: The Character of Raja Dahir
Some people make slanderous accusations about Raja Dahir in order to provide a justification for the bad deeds of their heros. Let us examine some of these few accusations, the principal ones of which are as follows:

1. He married his sister

2. He imprisoned and robbed some Arab people.

3. He abused Buddhists and non-Brahmins.

4. He was a decadent hedonist and a tyrant.

Observe that it is the work of every group that has been the victor to slander the vanquished party, to defame them, and thus to provide a justification, even though is is their behavior that is most unjust and diabolical.. many such examples exist in history. History has often been written by those in the pay of the victors.

[four specific examples of victors’ version of rewriting history skipped for brevity]

Let us carefully examine each of the allegations against Raja Dahar in turn.

1. Forget sisters, Hindu Brahmins consider marrying their cousins improper. So the accusation that he married his sister appears to be fallacious. The evidence offered for this accusation is that he refused to give his sister’s hand to some petty chieftain. But everyone knows that Hindus were endogamous within castes and status. Thus if he refused to allow his sister’s wedding to someone of a lower caste, is it reasonable to say that he had done so to marry his own sister? It is an ill-intentioned, bald lie.

2. The second allegation against him that has been made is that he had some gifts, which the Arab ruler was sending to the King of Ceylon, pirated, and the Arab sailors, arrested. There is also no evidence offered here either — to show that Raja Dahar did such a deed. There was plenty of piracy in those days. It is entirely possible that some pirates did this, but what possible advantage could a great king like Raja Dahar derive from such petty piracy? To make this a pretext for an invasion is entirely fraudulent and merely slanderous.

History states that even before the successful conquest of Sindh, the Arabs attacked 14 times — what was their justification for these attacks? Is it that the attacks on Samarkand, Bukhara, Morocco, Spain also to get compensated for something?

One cannot hide the true facts of history. It is clear that the Arab rulers, like all imperialist powers, had the goal of colonizing other nations. If we regard Roman, Mongolian, British and French imperialists wrong and tyrannical, how then can we call similar action by Arabs fair, and not merely fair but in the glory of Islam? Does the respect for Islam increase by such actions or is it slandered?

3. The third allegation that is made against him is that he was cruel towards Buddhists and other non-Hindus — but we can’t find evidence of this either. It is a historical fact that when Raja Chandersen, brother of Raja Chuch, reigned, he encouraged Buddhism. He gave special concessions to Buddhists bhikshus and monks. It is also no secret that the Brahmins can be religiously bigoted even more than Mullahs. Their actions eliminated Buddhism in much of India. But Sindh was that country where Buddhism flourished. Their presence is a testament to the liberalness of Raja Dahar. During his reign, two governors were Buddhists. Not only that, but an Arab Muslim Mohammed Alafi and his whole tribe, who were fleeing persecution of Banu Umayas, was granted asylum by Raja Dahar. Raja Dahar was so generous with them that they were permitted to stamp coins which bore Alafi’s name on one face. Examples of such generosity are rare indeed in history.

Accusing such a generous minded king of being prejudiced, made as it is by people whose own history is a testament to narrow-mindedness and bigotry, is nothing short of malicious.

4. The fourth charge laid against Raja Dahar is that he was hedonistic and cruel. Heaven knows what the intent of the slanderers is in using such terms. Who is the real criminal? The ones who sent two daughters of the Raja as a “gift”, the adulterer who married their mother forcibly, those who considered it proper to make Sindhi women slaves and have illicit relations with them — such rapists, the ones who sold thousands of Sindhis into slavery; or the one who gave his life defending his country? True History About Raja Dahir | mysticspeak

Besides all this Arabs had conquered Makran before Sindh during the reign of second Caliph, Hazrat Omar.

In response of Caliph Umar’s question about the Makran region, the Messenger from Makkuran who bring the news of the victory told him: O Commander of the faithful! It’s a land where the plains are stony; Where water is scanty; Where the fruits are unsavory Where men are known for treachery; Where plenty is unknown; Where virtue is held of little account; And where evil is dominant; A large army is less for there; And a less army is use less there;

**The land beyond it, is even worst (referring to Sind)
**
Umar looked at the messenger and said: "Are you a messenger or a poet? He replied “Messenger”. Thereupon Caliph Umar, after listening to the unfavorable situations for sending an army instructed Hakim bin Amr al Taghlabi that for the time being Makkuran should be the easternmost frontier of the Islamic empire, and that no further attempt should be made to extend the conquests. Thereupon one of the commanders of Islamic army in Makran said the following verses:

If the Commander of faithful wouldn’t have stopped us from going beyond, so we would have bought our forces to the temple of prostitutes.

Referring to the Hindu Temple in interior Sind where prostitutes used to give a part of their earning as alms

This all shows that Arabs have intentions to conquer Sindh way before the birth of Raja Dahir and history has definitely been manipulated by the conquerors in their favour.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: History of Pakistan

Indus Valley civilisation began in mehr garh (Balochistan). During the last phase of mehr garh the movement east wards is evidenced. One site of this cultural period is Kot Diji (Sindh). Geographical distribution of this period can be evidenced in several cities of balochistan and cholistan (Bahawalpur). Kot dijian culture can be seen plentifully between fort derawar and fort Abbas and across the border to kalibangan. In taxila two sites have been discovered which have taken the city back to this period.

[muqawwee123]

Re: History of Pakistan

Indus Valley civilisation began in mehr garh (Balochistan). During the last phase of mehr garh the movement east wards is evidenced. One site of this cultural period is Kot Diji.

Kot Diji is near Khairpur Meerus (Khiarpur State) whose borders are connected with LaRkna ( Moen jo Daro)

[Ali_Syed]

Re: History of Pakistan

^ Kot Diji seems to be an important site of the Indus Valley civilisation.

[muqawwee123]

Re: History of Pakistan

^ Kot Diji seems to be an important site of the Indus Valley civilisation.

What are Ahmed Dani's views on Kot Diji? Has he considered Kot Diji ruins more important than Moen jo Daro or consider them related to same era?

[Ali_Syed]

Re: History of Pakistan

By the beginning of the third millennium the land route connection between the Indus Valley, eastern Iran, southern Afghanistan and turkemanistan are well established.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: History of Pakistan

What are Ahmed Dani's views on Kot Diji? Has he considered Kot Diji ruins more important than Moen jo Daro or consider them related to same era?

I am reading the book, lets see. I have found an interesting peace on serpent worshippers and turbans. Gonna post that page now.

[muqawwee123]

Re: History of Pakistan

@Ali_Syed

I am reading the book, lets see. I have found an interesting peace on serpent worshippers and turbans. Gonna post that page now.

Interesting. Google say Serpent worship is a world over phenomenon.

The worship of the serpent traced throughout the world, and its traditions … - John Bathurst Deane - Google Books

Is there a link between Serpent and turban?

[ninja_hattori]

Re: History of Pakistan

I am reading the book, lets see. I have found an interesting peace on serpent worshippers and turbans. Gonna post that page now.

turbans are quite interesting .....different in each area and region.....

i like how the baluch wear their turbans....similarly shia scholars have different kind of turban....

our own TUQ wears turban like turkish and lebanese sunni scholars...:D i think

[muqawwee123]

Re: History of Pakistan

@ninja_hattori

turbans are quite interesting …different in each area and region…

i like how the baluch wear their turbans…similarly shia scholars have different kind of turban…

our own TUQ wears turban like turkish and lebanese sunni scholars… i think

[VintageSpring]

Re: History of Pakistan

We have got a dilemma, on the one end we have Pakistani history books which begin from ghauri and ghaznavi and on the other hand I feel that I get the notion from Indians as if all areas of India have been parts of the same empires. I'll be discussing the history of Pakistan in this thread based upon Ahmed dani's history of Pakistan. He is a renowned historian of Pakistan who spent all his life trying to decipher the history of the region.

Pakistan is f***** either way.

[ninja_hattori]

Re: History of Pakistan

@muqawwee123

mujhe laga aap TUQ ke moteqad hai issliye our own likha…

p.s. as he is from subcontinent

[Ali_Syed]

Re: History of Pakistan

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Restored attachments:

[muqawwee123]

Re: History of Pakistan

@VintageSpring

Pakistan is f***** either way.

aap ki tareef Hazrat?

[VintageSpring]

Re: History of Pakistan

aap ki tareef Hazrat?

Look at that egg that runs the country right now called Nawaz Sharif. Do you think he's going to make a better pakistan

[Ali_Syed]

Re: History of Pakistan

Look at that egg that runs the country right now called Nawaz Sharif. Do you think he's going to make a better pakistan

not related to the thread...

[muqawwee123]

Re: History of Pakistan

Look at that egg that runs the country right now called Nawaz Sharif. Do you think he's going to make a better pakistan

and What Nawaz Sharif has to got with all this discussion? Can't we be patient to discuss a thing about our country without introducing pessimism?

[VintageSpring]

Re: History of Pakistan

not related to the thread...

iknow.