Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

ravage · March 18, 2008, 11:26pm

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

which ones? i use immigration where it doesnt make a difference whether legal or illegal.

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Anyway, for the sake of simplicity, let me say. I do not support unrestricted open borders. No country in the world does it. There are real, practical draw-backs for allowing unrestricted open borders, when the neighboring countries have very different economic realities and economic problems. May be it will work between Spain and Germany, if both deem themselves similar in economic conditions. But it will not work between Bangladesh and India or Pakistan and Afghanistan, or Mexico and USA. Each country decides what works for them.

Secondly, I only support legal immigration, where a country first decides whether it wants you in or not. Once you are in, then you get various documents to live your life normally (e.g. drivers license etc). I do not support your model, where the person freely moves wherever he or she wants and then it is somehow incumbent upon the host country to provide him with drivers license and other benefits. In real life, this kind of nonsensical utopia does not exist. There is a reason for that. Already given above.
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libertarians leave the business of deciding who gets in and who doesnt to the employers. the government doesnt need to get into the business of going into who is and isnt useful or setting quotas. this works when people are moving into the country to work, obviously, and not just in it for the social programs.

an example of the counter-productive impact of all this managed and complicated immigration policies is the H1B visas. Many software companies vie for the limited number of visas available every year. Is there any doubt that the economy would grow if as many visas were granted as were petitioned for? Clearly there is work available for qualified people but is not being allowed. That directly corresponds to a smaller economy than what is possible.

now about your latter argument, where you say nobody is doing that, thats just an argument for the status quo. Not too long ago people would be saying that about democracy :)

obviously libertarian ideas have had limited acceptance in US. However McCain-Kennedy amnesty had the libertarian wing in the republican party content, if nothing else.

Xenophanez · March 18, 2008, 11:51pm

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

hmmm legal, illegal immigration!

what about our beloved Pakistani immigrants paying top dollars to get to western countries? and what impact do they have on OUR civil society?

MODS:- can we split this thread, since dicussion now is about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, not just about some "Hispanic worthless piece of SH!T"

Faisal · March 18, 2008, 11:52pm

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

Aha! so now instead of a person making a choice where to live, it is up to the employer to allow who gets in and not? Interesting.

There are several problems in this scenario, and trust me there are no absolute right or wrong, black or white answers. These are all policy debates that have to be finessed with time. One answer does NOT fit all, and is not true for all times.

Employers typically have very short-term views. If you leave it up to them, they will have no visibility on the social and cultural impact of immigration. How immigration impacts schools, hospitals, housing - most employers have no clue. Thats where government and economists come in. They have a larger sphere of visibility and planning.

Re: H-1B visas, its not a perfect model. They are similarly qualified US citizens who are not getting jobs, but foreigners with lower salary expectations are getting in. It creates many other social problems (law and order, resentment against government etc). Government takes a macro-economic view and says, ok we can have some 60,000 foreigners here this year, and the employers will just have to suck it up and employee some US residents too to fill up the rest. I don't think US has zero unemployment. If that were the situation, may be you'd have a case.

ravage · March 19, 2008, 12:01am

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

Sure, as I said Im open to some management, but very limited. I say all along that it needs to be on the basis of willingness and ability to work, and denying livelihood on the basis of origin is what I oppose. most illegal immigrants (who arent starving and arent eligible for social programs) are employed, albeit for minimum wages. The employers are happy with it, the govt isnt.

[quote]

There are several problems in this scenario, and trust me there are no absolute right or wrong, black or white answers. These are all policy debates that have to be finessed with time. One answer does NOT fit all, and is not true for all times.

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which also means that the current model is very much open to question. im not an absolutist, nor do i feel very strongly about it. I do think open immigration policies are fairer in a globalised world. it doesnt make sense for me for countries to have free access to markets but restrict access to labour resources.

[quote]

Employers typically have very short-term views. If you leave it up to them, they will have no visibility on the social and cultural impact of immigration. How immigration impacts schools, hospitals, housing - most employers have no clue. Thats where government and economists come in. They have a larger sphere of visibility and planning.

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So before that is discussed, is the economic benefit of employers deciding immigrant labour needs settled?

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Re: H-1B visas, its not a perfect model. They are similarly qualified US citizens who are not getting jobs, but foreigners with lower salary expectations are getting in. It creates many other social problems (law and order, resentment against government etc). Government takes a macro-economic view and says, ok we can have some 60,000 foreigners here this year, and the employers will just have to suck it up and employee some US residents too to fill up the rest. I don't think US has zero unemployment. If there is, may be you will have a case.
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how is that a macro-economic view? it is merely a socio-political view, which is a seperate question.

Faisal · March 19, 2008, 12:07am

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

You can settle whatever you wish to settle. I gave my opinion on why following the laws and regulations is important. I also make a claim that these laws and regulations are not made in a vacuum, but are made by the people of that area (demecracy, remember?) to work for their specific situation (US has a different immigration policy than, say, UK). I also say that illegal immigration is bad and unacceptable. I gave reasons for my opinion.

Kaka_MaNNa · March 19, 2008, 12:16am

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

First step towards preventing illegal immigration and problems that it causes is to condemn it and not come up with excuse to allow illegals to come in.. .why? Because we need someone to grow veggies? That approach is weak and does not look at the whole picture.

If you look at the whole system, you will see that illegal criminals damage the a network of public and private sector resources that are available to legal residents of the country.

In order for us to grow potatoes and tomatoes, we are wasting and risking resources that these illegals use, such as:

Public transportation
Public health
public schools
government universities and colleges
Water system
Sewage system
Law enforcement
Other public services that government provides (license offices, tag offices, utilities, etc.) The illegal criminals who work at farms are paid in cash, below minimum wage. So, their tax is never withheld. Who pays for the public and private sector services that these criminals utilize? We do. The tax payer does, when this money can be used for other purposes and not financing an illegal activity.

Lets not forget the crimes these illegal criminals carry out and people who die as a result. Those people WORK and their taxes are withheld and who takes the punch for that? Government does. When people who are paying taxes start dying, how do you think it will effect the revenue that government has to come up with in order to pay for services that** illegal criminals **use?

The cost to maintain public services because they are over burdened by the illegal criminals is much more than that of paying someone minimum wage or little bit more to grow a tomato.

ravage · March 19, 2008, 12:18am

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

im not sure if im required to come up with an executive summary in response :). democracies made jim crow laws once upon a time, which didnt completely work out in everyone's favour but were laws nevertheless. i wouldnt root for black folks to be thrown out of restaurants even if i was in that time, and even if that was the law. therefore i say illegal immigration is illegal but not "bad" in a universal-justice sense.

jaan-leva youre really too late to the game. its clearly winding down, or atleast i am. suffice to say, most economists say illegal immigrants have a net positive impact on the economy, even factoring in their utlization of public services. please see my cnn link for reference.

ashtray · March 20, 2008, 11:43am

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

all i got from this thread is that ravage is a "librarian"

for the record, i agree with ravage's arguments, Faisal is just maaring saRyaaN and changing the goal post with every new post, lekin what he has not realized yet is that ravage dimaagh kha jaye ga, peecha nahi choRay ga.

now you may continue gentlemen, and jaanleva you too.

HSK · March 20, 2008, 6:03pm

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

Politicians will tell people like you, who have nothing better to do but blame Mexicans for all your problems, that they'll clamp down on illegal immigration. That same government will then, almost magically, label the illegals you hate so much "legal temporary workers". Constituents hate illegals? Well legalize them illegals and your hispanic vermin is legally driving around in America :).

A side note: If kicking them out is a solution, then why only pick on Hispanic nuisance? Lets kick out some Americans too:

Old American vermin crashes car into cellphone store, kills customer. Get rid of **all **Americans and you wont have to deal with senile drivers.
American vermin slips and falls on ice, sues city for millions. Get rid of *all * Americans and save your tax money. *] American vermin lies about credentials, worked as dean at MIT for decades. Get rid of **all **Americans and you'll save your jobs from liars.

Kaka_MaNNa · March 20, 2008, 6:14pm

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

hskhan, we are talking about illegal criminal Hispanic vermin, go through the thread before replying.

HSK · March 20, 2008, 6:27pm

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

Why limit the discussion to illegal criminal Hispanics then? Is it just Hispanic criminals you hate or all people that commit crimes and waste your tax dollars? It appears to me that you're more interested in spewing racist hatred than you are interested in safegaurding public resources.

People have said it before, and I'll say it again: you're penny wise and pound foolish. No matter how many trips a Mexican takes on your crusty transit system, the dinky American economy gets more out of them than it spends on them.

saieen · March 20, 2008, 6:49pm

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

illegal invasion of iraq, illegal war...not a big issue? some illegal hispnaic is.

as for topic, why not go after the businesses and companies that hire such illegal people to work for them. obviously there is demand for such sh!t and so they keep on coming. ur upset @ the illegal immigrants but not a peep about the companies/business that hire them to begin with.

Kaka_MaNNa · March 20, 2008, 6:57pm

Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three

Because I have a problem with them, here's why:

They sneak into the country ILLEGALLY
Which makes them criminal
They do not follow the laws once in the country
They commit crime
gang warfare
drugs
They refuse to learn English (Latin American association here in Atlanta has a sign outside their building: *SPANISH *LESSONS STARTING SOON. Now, shouldn't they be teaching ENGLISH to their members?
They refuse to assimilate into the American society as good citizens. No body is asking them to walk on their country's flag or stop following their culture but at least respect what this country has to offer.
They over burden the health care and school system which should be for the legal and citizens of the country, not illegal criminals.
They drive without proper license and insurance, causing millions in insurance costs as well as buck is passed on to the citizens who do follow the laws of the country, who do pay taxes.
Why should the tax payer be responsible for illegal criminal to stay in this country illegally? Again, stop using the race card. This has nothing to do with race. They are ILLEGAL criminals, they should be thrown out of the country. If there is a reasonable excuse to keep them as temporary workers, keep them but TAX them so they are part of the economy from the start and not just piggy back on government provided services while their money is sent back home. Come down to Georgia and you will see how far spread this vermin is... they stand, worthless on every single gas station, waiting for someone to pick them up for a days work. It's turning into a freaking mini Mexico, a third world country.

I don't have any problem with Hispanics who are here **legally **and are working hard to earn a living and follow the laws, and pay taxes and really deserve to be included as the part of the american economy.