Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
i dont feel strongly about it, but Im pro-open or easy immigration.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
What about *ILLEGAL *immigration? People who are illegal in the country and still keep coming?
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
same. in my libertarianish worldview you'd find that immigrants are usually good for the economy unless you have very extensive social programs. im also for cutting social programs, so if they come to the country they come to work and be productive, not for free education and healthcare. furthermore there is the moral imperative, denying people livelihoods based on their birthplace is a form of apartheid.
While I am discussing immigration here, I should make clear that I dismiss any association of illegal immigration and road accidents till scientific proof is brought to bear that out
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
^ You cluttered your response by intermixing legal with illegal immigrants. While I understand your point about immigrants being good for the economy etc, its not clear if you are lumping illegal immigrants in this "good for economy" argument. Please explain.
And while we are making moral arguments, lets also take on the moral argument that people stand in lines and wait patiently for years to get legal immigration based on their family ties, education and skills. Whereas others just cross the border, consider immigration laws as worthless and to be broken and want to be treated the same. Lets see how you equate the moral argument here.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
So, someone crosses the border illegally, instead of sending them back to the country they came from, we should just hand them green card/passport?
Why? Khala jee ka ghar hai?
Those who are "good" for the economy don't sneak into the country illegally through underground tunnels and drug cartel caravans. By sneaking in illegally, you have pretty much shown how much respect you have for the law of the land and what your intention is.
Everyday you hear about the accidents, just look at those reports instead of waiting for some body to do the study for you... that is just an excuse to dismiss the fact that illegals do cause accidents, they do drive without proper documents (insurance, license, etc.) and often try to cover up/run from the scene.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
working immigrants are good for the economy, period. the intermixing is deliberate, because clearly you understand that most of those who “do jobs americans dont want to do” are illegal, and contribute significantly to the economy. They actually have more of an incentive to work ironically because they are illegal and dont have a social safety net.
people who have better education and skills get better jobs. since my moral argument for open immigration is not based on family ties, Im not sure whether I need to address that.
you asked my views on illegal immigration, I tend to be open or nearly open borders. which means that I disagree with the current laws on immigration, and dont feel very strongly if they are broken. this, while ofcourse recognizing the shallow fact that presently anyone who breaks those laws is a criminal, and any criminal prosecution against him is something he should bear in mind when breaking those laws.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
So, someone crosses the border illegally, instead of sending them back to the country they came from, we should just hand them green card/passport?
Sure if ur being that liberal. I would probably prefer the guest worker programme too, that retains them as workers but doesnt give additional rights.
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Those who are "good" for the economy don't sneak into the country illegally through underground tunnels and drug cartel caravans.
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Wrong. See link above.
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Everyday you hear about the accidents, just look at those reports instead of waiting for some body to do the study for you... that is just an excuse to dismiss the fact that illegals do cause accidents, they do drive without proper documents (insurance, license, etc.) and often try to cover up/run from the scene.
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You hear about accidents involving black guys and gay females too. I dont regard them as anything causal until there is an actual scientifically provable causal link. the only studies so far show a hispanic factor, not an illegal immigrant factor (infact atleast one study categorically says its across the board, not about legal status)
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
Interesting views. I didn’t realize that Libertarians are so anti-immigration laws. But then, I never had any kind of in-depth discussion on immigration with any self-professed Libertarians previously.
I can see several gaping holes in this Utopian Theory of World Without Borders. More likely than not, in this futuristic world of free immigration, at some point many American cities will begin the resemble the over-populated, under-served, crime-infested, sour-on-the-eye kinda Mexican cities and your Libertarian soul will smile in happiness that USA has achieved parity with Mexico, Peru, Columbia, Philippines, Nigeria, Sudan and every other place in the world that is deemed less developed/prosperous than USA. Finally we’d have defeated this apartheid of immigration. Mission Accomplished.
And then we can all move back to Pakistan and live happily ever after. Ah! what a dream. 
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
I hear ya JL, this political correctness...can be so annoying naa :@:
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
i dont like wearing any label too strongly since you never know what you'll become later on (they say everyone is a republican once hes over 40). so yeah call me a libertarian if you want but not a self professed one :), i just think like them.
about what you say about the libertarian future, i guess i'd counter to say it would be more like new york or los angeles, a cosmopolitan place where people from across the world come if they can work. what keeps it from becoming like mexico city is the fact that you also reduce social programmes, thereby disincentivizing non-productive people to make the trip if they're not gonna be able to support themselves. LA does have the most mexicans in one place except for mexico city, but it is a fairly nice place to live :). the idea that it will become as crime infested as mexico isnt borne out by evidence, on the contrary immigrants (even those who buck the system to get there) are generally good for the economy.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
Spare us the political correctness and the *hate *card... that most liberals use in situations like this. You know how many **people die **daily/monthly/yearly because of this vermin?
I don't like people sneaking into the country ILLEGALLY and then KILL its citizens. They are criminals hence the outrage...
How many criminals and illegals and killers are you going to defend?
Illegal Immigration = WAR
WAR = Illegal Immigration
Unless you can call them all Insurgents..............:)
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
completely agree with Java Leen
these illegals don't know how to drive, and just run away to mexico when something bad happens
they are turning America into a 3rd world country
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
about what you say about the libertarian future
Ok, so you have given your libertarian views about immigration. Let me give you mine no-label views, and then we can discuss.
I believe immigration is the heart and soul of a vibrant society. Civilizations that close their doors on immigration wither and die over time. There are certain countries in the world that have progressed phenomenally well. These include, USA, Canada, Australia and many countries in Europe. There are others too. For the most part they have progressed so well is because they value the importance of laws and regulations. They treat people fairly (for the most part) and provide opportunities to all. There is a reason why there is usually a long line in front of their embassies and consulates for people lining up to get in.
The simple maths of higher age expectancy, lower number of kids and social benefits offered to an aging population means that these societies need to encourage younger immigrants to move in, work, pay taxes and support the social security programs for the old.
However, I have no sympathies whatsoever for illegal immigrants. None. There could be individual cases where families break immigration laws to stay together and I am pretty sure there is a human factor to support them, but by and large, anyone deliberately breaking the laws to enter any country for financial prosperity or whatever reason is a criminal. And that person should face the consequences of his/her actions.
Also, while we are at it, I firmly believe that the argument that illegal immigrants do the jobs that other Americans won't do is completely bogus. If these illegal immigrants are not here to do these jobs, then their employers will find other ways to get the job done. This is a non-argument.
And lastly, by way of immigration policies, I think the US diversity visa lottery program was the most stupid idea ever. I much rather support US' own H-1 visa program and similar programs offered by Canadian, British and Australias where they encourage skilled people and their families to emigrate, rather than dishing out green-card based on luck/lottery to people who may end up having no skills to get productive employment. I am sure there are better ways to encourage diversity in population while also attracting educated, skilled and knowledgeable workforce. Getting good students from around the world to come here, get higher education and then settle down is also a fantastic way to get good quality and diverse immigrant population.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
Ok, so you have given your libertarian views about immigration. Let me give you mine no-label views, and then we can discuss.
I believe immigration is the heart and soul of a vibrant society. Civilizations that close their doors on immigration wither and die over time. There are certain countries in the world that have progressed phenomenally well. These include, USA, Canada, Australia and many countries in Europe. There are others too. For the most part they have progressed so well is because they value the importance of laws and regulations. They treat people fairly (for the most part) and provide opportunities to all. There is a reason why there is usually a long line in front of their embassies and consulates for people lining up to get in.
Partially agree. I believe the reasons are mainly economical, and the laws and regulations are an afterthought. There is no shortage of immigrants queing in for places with terrible, draconian laws, the gulf states come to mind. on the other hand, countries with similar laws but not great economies dont have these lines of people.
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The simple maths of higher age expectancy, lower number of kids and social benefits offered to an aging population means that these societies need to encourage younger immigrants to move in, work, pay taxes and support the social security programs for the old.
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i agree.
The libertarian argument for immigration is not a one worlder, hippy, it takes a village type argument, it is mainly an economic argument. They just push out the moral imperative as an afterthought. both are important in my view.
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However, I have no sympathies whatsoever for illegal immigrants. None. There could be individual cases where families break immigration laws to stay together and I am pretty sure there is a human factor to support them, but by and large, anyone deliberately breaking the laws to enter any country for financial prosperity or whatever reason is a criminal. And that person should face the consequences of his/her actions.
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Theres laws that regulate moral issues, like murder, rape etc. Then there are laws that reflect caprices of the times and the legistlators. For the former, I would feel strongly that Justice is not done until the legal consequences are meted out. For the latter I would accept the consequences pro-forma, but not rooting for them to meet the requirements of universal Justice. since i have a different view of how immigration legally should be vs what it is, I see illegal immigration in the latter light.
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Also, while we are at it, I firmly believe that the argument that illegal immigrants do the jobs that other Americans won't do is completely bogus. If these illegal immigrants are not here to do these jobs, then their employers will find other ways to get the job done. This is a non-argument.
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Not necessarily. From the cnn article I referenced:
A crackdown in illegal immigration in 2004 caused a shortage of workers needed to bring in the lettuce crop in the Western United States, said Powell, which he said caused a $1 billion loss for the industry as many growers had to leave their fields unharvested.
"To hire Americans to do it, they would have had to raise wages so far, it wouldn't have been worth it for them," said Powell at the Independent Institute. "It caused less of a loss to leave the crop to rot."
Asking employers to find someone else doesnt factor in the economic feasibility of finding that someone. in some case like the above that can mean a shrinking of the economy.
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And lastly, by way of immigration policies, I think the US diversity visa lottery program was the most stupid idea ever. I much rather support US' own H-1 visa program and similar programs offered by Canadian, British and Australias where they encourage skilled people and their families to emigrate, rather than dishing out green-card based on luck/lottery to people who may end up having no skills to get productive employment. I am sure there are better ways to encourage diversity in population while also attracting educated, skilled and knowledgeable workforce. Getting good students from around the world to come here, get higher education and then settle down is also a fantastic way to get good quality and diverse immigrant population.
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i agree, immigration should be merit based, and one way of making it merit based is to base it on ability and willingness to work.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
Not necessarily. From the cnn article I referenced:
Asking employers to find someone else doesnt factor in the economic feasibility of finding that someone. in some case like the above that can mean a shrinking of the economy.
As I said, I believe this is a completely bogus argument. It fosters a wrong perception that breaking the laws some how makes it worth it. I didn't read the CNN article beyond what you posted and this is extremely narrow, and limited conclusion. Lets take it to its logical conclusion. So the cost of vegetables and grain will go up, because illegals won't be there working for lower-than-minimum wages. Ok. So the costs go up. May be. So these costs are passed on to the consumer. Fine. So we pay more for onions and tomatoes in our super market. Fine, big deal. Then it turns out that Mexican tomato is the same quality and is cheaper because laborers in Mexico are cheaper. Ok. So, instead of buying tomatoes from California, we'll start buying Mexican tomatoes. Ok. So the farmer in California who used to hire illegals will now have to grow something else which he can actually sell for a profit. So he grows something else. This is capitalism. Things are manufactured and produced where they are cheaper and more efficient to produce. This is why all our toys are now built in China. We don't say lets build cheaper toys in USA by having illegal workers for cheap. No. If its cheaper to make toys in China, then thats where they will be made. Once China starts having laws governing minimum wages and workplace safety, then the costs to produce toys in China will also go up. And we will pay higher price at the check-out counter at Walmart. Thats how this argument goes.
Condoning illegal behavior for very limited short-term benefit is a crappy argument. This is what I said when you first mentioned this oh-these-illegals-do-jobs-that-americans-won't-do. Its a bad argument. I completely disagree with it.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
As I said, I believe this is a completely bogus argument. It fosters a wrong perception that breaking the laws some how makes it worth it. I didn't read the CNN article beyond what you posted and this is extremely narrow, and limited conclusion. Lets take it to its logical conclusion. So the cost of vegetables and grain will go up, because illegals won't be there working for lower-than-minimum wages. Ok. So the costs go up. May be. So these costs are passed on to the consumer. Fine. So we pay more for onions and tomatoes in our super market. Fine, big deal. Then it turns out that Mexican tomato is the same quality and is cheaper because laborers in Mexico are cheaper. Ok. So, instead of buying tomatoes from California, we'll start buying Mexican tomatoes. Ok. So the farmer in California who used to hire illegals will now have to grow something else which he can actually sell for a profit. So he grows something else. This is capitalism. Things are manufactured and produced where they are cheaper and more efficient to produce. This is why all our toys are now built in China. We don't say lets build cheaper toys in USA by having illegal workers for cheap. No. If its cheaper to make toys in China, then thats where they will be made. Once China starts having laws governing minimum wages and workplace safety, then the costs to produce toys in China will also go up. And we will pay higher price at the check-out counter at Walmart. Thats how this argument goes.
Condoning illegal behavior for very limited short-term benefit is a crappy argument. This is what I said when you first mentioned this oh-these-illegals-do-jobs-that-americans-won't-do. Its a bad argument. I completely disagree with it.
you present a reductive version of the argument. the little bit quoted was just saying that cracking down on illegal immigrants cost the economy, not saying that condone illegal behaviour because xyz. if anything Im arguing that because it is economically feasible and indeed beneficial and better morally the laws should allow free movement of immigrants, not arguing for condoning anything. catch em and ship em off if you want, i wont protest.
So you say that people would buy things from other places if american prices went up. are you saying that american economy wouldnt shrink as a result of the say lettuce industry moving to mexico? sure its capitalism but how is that a rebuttal? you said employers would find other ways of getting the job done.. that little paragraph up there is an example of an instance where employers couldnt get the job done. was there no lettuce in the stores as a consequence? maybe not, but that was never the point.
free movement of people is infact ultimately a very capitalist view of the world. its seen as a free market of labour resources just as capitalists want free trade.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
That little snippet doesn't go full length to explain why the employers didn't find replacement. May be they were just hoping that illegals will return. May be they were stupid. Who knows. Point is, if they are good business people, and they know they can't get cheap illegal immigrants any more, then they will find some other way of completing the job and making money. They won't sit around and sulk and let the produce go to waste.
And things move around the globe all the time. Pretty much the entire US steel industry has now gone overseas. Why? Because it was cheaper and more efficient to make steel overseas. Were people upset here in the US? You bet they were. They just have to move on to something else. This is capitalism.
But globalization of economy doesn't mean we start condoning smuggling. Your argument that "free movement of people is infact ultimately a very capitalist view of the world", it may be, but it specifically talks about movement while following laws and regulations of the land. While I/we fully support imigration, what I am saying is that it has to follow laws and regulations, and pretty much no country in the world allows unrestricted open borders for just about anyone to enter and settle down (If there is one, please give an example of any successful country that allows it). This is a sure recipe for chaos and complete disintegration of society and culture in that area.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
That little snippet doesn't go full length to explain why the employers didn't find replacement. May be they were just hoping that illegals will return. May be they were stupid. Who knows. Point is, if they are good business people, and they know they can't get cheap illegal immigrants any more, then they will find some other way of completing the job and making money. They won't sit around and sulk and let the produce go to waste.
but it does...
"To hire Americans to do it, they would have had to raise wages so far, it wouldn't have been worth it for them," said Powell at the Independent Institute. "It caused less of a loss to leave the crop to rot."
No sulking, just a simple economic calculation.
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And things move around the globe all the time. Pretty much the entire US steel industry has now gone overseas. Why? Because it was cheaper and more efficient to make steel overseas. Were people upset here in the US? You bet they were. They just have to move on to something else. This is capitalism.
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Once again saying that this is capitalism does not counter the fact that immigrants have a lifting impact on the economy. Yes its cheaper and efficient to make steel overseas but do you doubt that the US economy would be larger if it was economically feasible to make steel here?
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But globalization of economy doesn't mean we start condoning smuggling.
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Sure, it just means arguing for free trade :)
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Your argument that "free movement of people is infact ultimately a very capitalist view of the world", it may be, but it specifically talks about movement while following laws and regulations of the land. While I/we fully support imigration, what I am saying is that it has to follow laws and regulations, and pretty much no country in the world allows unrestricted open borders for just about anyone to enter and settle down (If there is one, please give an example of any successful country that allows it). This is a sure recipe for chaos and complete disintegration of society and culture in that area.
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How do you "fully" support immigration if you argue against unrestricted open borders? You support managed immigration, I too see the benefits of managing immigration to the extent of documenting, allowing for driver's licenses, and ensuring basic rights (while not granting automatic citizenship). thats the bit that controls chaos and distintegration.
whereas opposed to you i advocate much looser movement of people, based solely on their will and ability to work and be productive.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
First of all you keep using the word "immigration" to mean both "legal" as well as "illegal" immigration. So a lot of your arguments don't work.
Anyway, for the sake of simplicity, let me say. I do not support unrestricted open borders. No country in the world does it. There are real, practical draw-backs for allowing unrestricted open borders, when the neighboring countries have very different economic realities and economic problems. May be it will work between Spain and Germany, if both deem themselves similar in economic conditions. But it will not work between Bangladesh and India or Pakistan and Afghanistan, or Mexico and USA. Each country decides what works for them.
Secondly, I only support legal immigration, where a country first decides whether it wants you in or not. Once you are in, then you get various documents to live your life normally (e.g. drivers license etc). I do not support your model, where the person freely moves wherever he or she wants and then it is somehow incumbent upon the host country to provide him with drivers license and other benefits. In real life, this kind of nonsensical utopia does not exist. There is a reason for that. Already given above.
Re: Hispanic vermin fleeing crash goes wrong way, kills three
I like this thread.
Wouldn't it be funny if it were about Illigal Immigrants in the U.K.
Anyway...continue.