I think we are confusing issues here. First of all the thread should be "why non-muslims excel in education and wordly achievements while the muslims do not". The religious comparisons have been conveniently ignored by the Hindus as Hinduism is not really a religion but rather a mythology. Many universities in the US don't consider Hinduism alongwith other pagan religions as mytholigy.
Now coming to the questions of the muslim vs non-muslim achievemnets. If history is something to go by the muslims carried the torch of science, technology, philosophy, literature, psychology, medicine and all social sciences from 8th century to the 15th century.
Although the names are conveniently baptized
by the West to make sure that even when muslims read history of science they can never guess the names are moorish, but the fact remain that Roomi, Al Gabr, Bu Ali Sena and Al Riaz etc have been giants. Bughdad called the city of peace was the most populated and prosperous city of the 11th century. Spain reached the pinnacle of its glory during the muslim era. Till the 16th century books written by muslim scholars on science and medicine were tought in European universities. So to my friend faceup we muslims were not really limited to the 7th century but progressed steadily till as late as the 16th century.
Too bad they did not have the nobel prize as a yardstick for achievement then otehrwise muslims would have a handful to show. I would have to agree with faceup that we never did getaway from the old to the new. However to squarely blame it on the Madaris and Mollas would be incorrect. These were the same institutions from which once sprung scholars of the highest calible.
Another interseting Statistics is that the best selling literary work in US has been Omar Khayyam's Rubaiyaat.
So keeping the logic of Andhra (which is totally illogical) muslims of present day are not practicing which is why they do not excel in education while hindus of old times were not practicing which is why they did not perform as remarkably as did the muslims of those times. Islam has left a lasting impression on the world in all spheres of life, while the hindu culture is only limited and confined to parts of sub-continent. Now this said I have a few questions relevant to the topic, which I want answered by my learned hindu participants:
Why is cow sacred?
What is Kali Mata?
What is the religious standing of Sati?
Why are Shoudars "untouchables"?
Why can a non-brahman be part of a clergy?
What is HANUMAN? Is he a myth or a god with the face of the monkey? If he existed then how did he die? If he died then how can a god die?
What is GANESH? Is he a myth or a real god with the body of a man and face of an elephant? Is he alive or dead? If dead then how can a god die?
What is the status of the godess that is on a tiger? Is it a legend or a real life story. Please explain
What is the concept of reincarnation and is it considered lucky that a human being is reincarnated in form of a Cow, Snake, Rat, Monkey, Elephant or other animal?
What is the concept of heaven or hell in Hinduism?
The list is long but I would want these questions answered before I get into more questions.
I await anxiously for a reply.
rational.. why dont u go to library, read books and know things. Still u have some questions after preliminary readings, let us know. Why should anyone spend time here on information that can be available in library. try to read honest and knoledgeble sources and not the ones who translate 'kulwadhu' as 'invisible to sun'.
ZZ, my questions are very simple and straightforward and as you said there are many dubious sites and literature out there to pollute one's mind. Now if I am thinking of converting I would like to see if the religion whether Islam, Christianity or Hinduism makes sense or not. What do I do I research and ask people of that faith. So I ask you. I have looked and I cannot fathom the logic. I ask for help and you refer me to the library again. I am sure you have the answers so help me out here. It is not an unreasonalble reguest. If you have any questions about Islam I am more than willing to answer them after I research the authentic sources.
I still await the responses to my queries.
Regards
encyclopedia britanica is reasonably good. maxmuller wrote a good commentary. you can have accounts of karma, reincarnation and such things there. on vedic and non-vedic philosophies there are many scholarly books by both westerners and indians. it is not difficult to note the books that have agenda. you can easily ignore them.
major difference, as our banta singh said is flexibility. islam is a religion of book and innumerable hadiths and what muslims are supposed to do is very decided.
on the other hand, beliefs, practices and customs have kept changing in hinduism. they are still changing. what was done 5000 years ago was not same as what was don 100 years ago and does not resemble what is today.
whatever i do, nobody has power to declare me non-hindu. there is no unanimity on what a hindu must do. unlike mosques and churches where people get together on specific days and like, hinduism is not an organized religion. i think u should just observe the hindu society around. that is a better indicator in absence of a rigid definition.
[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited August 08, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra: Yeah it is not frozen in time.
Christians share it with us to some extent.
Did not the pope apolozize for crusades recently?
[/quote]
even christianity is better defined. it has a book. in hindus, it is not even clear whether to burn or bury. mahanubhavs bury their dead and still are hindus.
ZZ and Andhra , you are not really telling it like it is. Hinduism was defined in it's earlier literature and there were several rules and regulations laid out in hindu books. Today hindus can't really justify what was written in those books so they say hinduism is flexible. Hinduism in it's original form was anything but flexible. The new sanitised version maybe.
If I understand Hinduism correctly 'Karma' are very important part of religion. Doing good 'Karma' just for its own sake rather for any gain is considered very noble and leads to moksha.
Xtreme,
Many Hindus converted to Sikhism....that just shows that hinduism is more flexible than many other religions.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 08, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: ZZ and Andhra , you are not really telling it like it is. Hinduism was defined in it's earlier literature and there were several rules and regulations laid out in hindu books. Today hindus can't really justify what was written in those books so they say hinduism is flexible. Hinduism in it's original form was anything but flexible. The new sanitised version maybe.
[/quote]
Nope where are vedic deities, like brahma, rudra, varun gone? where was santoshi mata hundred years ago or satya narayan which came out of bengal and u have more of it in maharashtra than anywhere else. Rigveda has 3 varnas. 4th varna comes later and panchamas come even later. Parts of vedas are written by women. how did vedas got banned to women. so things indeed changed in course of time. in vedic times, sages ate beef. later not eating beef became defining characteristic.
In ramayana and mahabharata, u have so manuy accounts of what we will call 'love marriages' today. Child marriages are nonexistent. Today u see so many child marriages in north india and woman hardl has a voice in choosing husband. lord krishna was a yadav, like our Lalooprasad. He lived as a yadav and was honored for his wisdom by kshatriyas.
[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited August 08, 2000).]
I'm sorry about losing your post there. In my rush instead of hitting the "quote" button, I accidentally hit the "edit" button and because my nick has certain rights it didn't flag me when I finished typing my message and posted it.
Again, I'm sorry about the mistake. I hope that you will re-post what you wrote in answer to Rational's message because it did help the questions that were posed.
so the answer to the question why there are 300 million lowlifes among hindus and a rising number of religious prostitutes is that hinduism is completely disorganized, anyone can follow it if they want to and throw it out the window if not, any one can go and change the rules and beleifs as they suit them. So if lingum is worshipped today and female sexual organs of the dead are eaten today… tomorrow they can be changed to squirrel nutts if a brahman feels they are tasty.
Good enough reasons. i think that about explains why so many hindus are converting to sikhism, Islam and christianity. thank you all.
mundayya.. bother about ur barbarian religion where breaking places of worship of other religion is act of bravery, and two women's witnesses are equal to one man's witness and getting out of the religion is punishable by death. ur religion is am mousetrap thet does not allow mice to come out and u r afraid of naming a single hall in pakistan after dr. salam just because he belongs to different sect.
Admin- please note the language of the message to which the reply is directed. despite my best efforts, u would agree that i have given a civilized reply.
how will people convert to other religion from islam. u kill them if they dare to get out of ur uncivilized faith.
[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited August 08, 2000).]
Who says Muslims are behind in science. Mulims knew things 1400 years ago what hindus are still unaware of or became aware recently. A few examples.....
1) The big bang theory
"Do the unbelievers not realize that
the heavens and the earth used to be
one solid mass that
we exploded into existence?
And from water we made all living things.
Would they believe?"
The Qur'an 21:30
2) Perfectly created universes
"He created seven universes in layers.
You do not see any imperfection
in the creation by the Most Gracious.
Keep looking; do you see any flaw?
Look again and again; your eyes will
come back stumped and conquered."
Qur'an 67:3-4.
3) Geological facts
"When you look at the mountains,
you think that they are standing still.
But they are moving, like the clouds.
Such is the manufacture of GOD,
Who perfected everything.
He is fully Cognizant of
everything you do. "
Qur'an 27:88
4) Preservation of genetic data, It is the miracle that Quran said that fingerprints of each person are uniqure and it will be true till the judgement day
"75/3. Does the human being think that
We will not reconstruct his bones ?
75/4. Yes indeed; We are able to
recreate even his fingerprint."
Quran (75.3-4)
You non-muslims say that we muslims live in the 6th century and you (non-muslims) change with time. It is because we do not need to change. The Quran was authentic, it is authentic, and it will be authentic till the judgement day because it the world of God. And God knows what will be in the 6th centry, in the 21th century and so on. You (non-muslims) follow the religion that has no authenticity and you have nothing to stand on, so you change with the time. Islam teaches us how to live, how to act, how to treat people. I came across so many hindus in the IT PROFESSION, very few of them had the manners to act or speak, they are still ignorant of the basic knowledge of life. If you ask them who created you, they say "I dunno know". They don't know which one of theri gods to name because they have many. (they are so proud of being dominated in the IT industry).
1400 years ago, non-muslims must be foolish enough to make fun of muslims when reading "the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass", it is because they were ignorant.
We follow Quran blindly because we know it is nothing but the truth.
Allah says,
"Do they not handle Quran with care, if it was from other than Allah, it would had in it many discrepencies"
NO WONDER WHY MAJORITY HINDUS AFTER MIGRATING TO WESTERN COUNTIES BECOME MORE VULGAR AND UNSOPHISTICATED, ITS NOT THEIR FAULT, IT IS BECAUSE THEIR RELEGION IS SOOOOOOO FLEXIBLE THAT ALL SORT OF VULGARITY THEY ADOPT MAY BE ALLOWED IN THEIR RELEGION.
DON'T YOU THINK THATS TOO MUCH OF FLEXIBILITY??AND BY THE WAY, RELEGION IS NOT SUPPOSE TO BE FLEXIBLE, IT SHOULD REMAIN THE SAME AS IT WAS CREATED.YOU PEOPLE(HINDUS) DON'T PERFORM SATI PRACTICE DOESN'T MEAN YOUR RELEGION RESTRICTED IT, BUT ITS YOU PEOPLE YOURSELF WHO DIDN'T FIND IT VERY PLEASING AND STOPPED(I THINK..??)
i dont think i have said anything in my post that can be termed derogatory.... here is what i have said. "so the answer to the question why there are 300 million lowlifes among hindus and a rising number of religious prostitutes is that hinduism is completely disorganized, anyone can follow it if they want to and throw it out the window if not, any one can go and change the rules and beleifs as they suit them. So if lingum is worshipped today and female sexual organs of the dead are eaten today..... tomorrow they can be changed to squirrel nutts if a brahman feels they are tasty."
here is YOUR post which says the same thing.
take any characteristic and you can find a hindu sect that does not believe in it.. it is also a continually changing religion.. the deities in vedic times are no longer worshipped.. it is not very well defined religion. it is not organized religion either.
now as for the other FACTS that i've listed in my post, i can give proofs of each and every single one. You have also agreed in an earlier post that some hindus eat female sexual oragans after she dies. I ran a thread sometime ago about it.... infact i saw it on the program "beleive it or not" where they showed hindus eating a dead womans ******. now i dont think there should be any reason for u to think that im being disrespectful to hinduism here..... afterall no one minds when you all bring up honour killings to blame Islam which everyone denounces.
As for the rising number of religious hindu prostitutes are concerned.... well u have nothing going in your defense either, except for telling us that there are muslim prostitutes in bombay. Well, NO ONE is talking about regular off the street prostitutes here..... which easily double or tripple these numbers of religious prostitutes or devdasies.
Now, please explain where have I been disrespectful to hinduism or brahmans. I've only listed FACTS about hindus/hinduism/brahmans. If u consider them to be shameful, dispicable, filthy etc.... well u r not the only one who feels that way. But pls dont blame us for pointing them out.