^ I dont think your name is Tahir you might be Talwar Singh or something.. Pakistan is an Islamic state and our laws should be based strictly on Sunnah and sharia.. thats it! period.. there is no room for other religion or any other custom/culture. India can't base her laws on Hinduism cuz it is a secular state... if they do so, indian muslims will revolt. BTW, very few people in Pakistan watch Bollywood stinky films.. all those who do that will be caught and punished when Pakistan becomes 100% Islamic state.
music is a religious act if you are using it to praise the god or get closer to god. tahirbhai has answered. and they are not hierarchial. some people may start their monastic life or who are not at all interested in their lowest goals. This is due to a integral doctrine of hinduism called 'doctrine of karma' which is closely associated with 'doctrine of rebirth'. these two are as old as hinduism itself. these are also found in buddhism, jainism and majority of eastern religions i guess. I will explain these two after some time.
The doctrine of karma, is to achieve rebirth. But when is the nirvana.
From what I can understand of karma, is Like they are 4 predominant castes
1) Brahmin
2) Kshatriyas
3) Vaishavas
4) Shudras.
Since the doctrine of rebirt is closely related to karma, is it right that you do good deeds in this life, you would get a better status, for next life.
For example Shudras do a good deed the next birth you become a Brahmin, which you will eternally get Nirvana.
Throw some light on this.
The doctrine of karma, is to achieve rebirth. But when is the nirvana.
From what I can understand of karma, is Like they are 4 predominant castes
1) Brahmin
2) Kshatriyas
3) Vaishavas
4) Shudras.
Since the doctrine of rebirt is closely related to karma, is it right that you do good deeds in this life, you would get a better status, for next life.
For example Shudras do a good deed the next birth you become a Brahmin, which you will eternally get Nirvana.
Throw some light on this.
U dont need to achieve any of these first 3 attributes, they are present in your life always no matter who u are...
Always keep in mind that Hinduism and vedas give importance to practicality in life, **Kama *- It does not only mean sex, it means gratification of senses ... like for example the feeling u get when u see a bunch of flowers, or say a sunset, or say eating your favourite food, or enjoy sport
*Artha -** I could be called your secondary objective( aka ambition) in life: something like I wanna be a successful Doctor **Dharma- *I would say your *duty *rather than your religious duty (of course, religious duties are also part of it) eg taking care of your parents etc
*Moksha- **This needs no explanation, all religions strive for this
*No matter who u consider as an example, A pious soul or a cutthroat, both will have these 4 attributes in their lives but with different definitions for all of them
*No, Music need not be a religious act...
But remember that all of us knowingly or unknowingly use music in our life take for example our spoken language:
Go slow, work in progress
Go, slow work in progress
both phrases mean different thing dependin on the pause we take at the comma, so u see, speech intonations are a form of music
Other examples
A marching band- u march to a beat
The way a mother teaches a child monosyllables- it's music
Even your heart beat is rhythmic in nature!!!
So u see music and life are inseparable...
_______________________--
Your sources please?where have we butchered, Jains, sikhs, buddhists, and Muslims( in greater detail below)
Yes, a muslim army attacks Spain within 100 yrs(732 AD) of muhammad's death and u dont expect them to retailiate. remember Muslims attacked Spain, Spain did not attack Makkah, right?
I hold them guilty as well
Contrary to popular pakistani belief, a significant part of the Indian army is Muslim and also we have 2 army regiments that recruit directly from Kashmiri Muslims "The Jammu and Kahsmir Rifles" and "The Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry"... The Police force in Kashmir is almost fully Muslim...
And these Muslim security forces are raping muslims, how convincing is that, moreover the world press has free access to J&K(unlike POK) but no one apart from the paki propaganda machine *claims *these incidents
**Of course, some violations are bound to happen but they are freely reported by our press and the guilty are punished
The **same indian government **has **documented **the **rape of Kashmiri and Balgladeshi **damsels in 1948 and 1971 respectively,by MUSLIM Pakistani Army and Afghan Tribals, but that is nonsense isn't it?
Funny how u pakis and muslims in general can hold one claim by an authority to be genuine and another claim by the same authority is bull cp
*Besides, have u heard of Panun Kashmir? Its an organisation of displaced kashmiri pandits by your muslim terrorists in their own home land who had to leave under threat of death... any way these pandits were established here even before Islam was preached, muslims came here as invaders, and forced hindus to leave... i am one of those hindus
*
Have u read of "Direct action day"(Aug 16 1946) by your beloved Jinah? read reports by non-indian reporters from time and other magazines on the internet...then u will know who started the rioting... also the killing of refugees was triggered after the first train laden with bodies reached Amritsar from **Lahore
**The indian army gave protection to muslims as ordered by the government of India (this is incidentally the same Hindu army that "kills, rapes and loots" Kashmiris today) and Gandhi visited the muslim areas and asked hindus to be tolerant... did Jinnah do the same?did the pak army protect hindus in pak?
There are 200 million muslims in India(more than the whole paki population), how many Hindus are in pakistan?
So u need a crash course in history
More Bull Sh*t
U tell me how have hindus treated Jains? I myself believe in Mahavira as an enlightened soul and been to their temples.. have u even been to India? Jains like all people are free to practice their religion if u did u must have met more Muslims like yourself, and not Hindus...
Other religions? Boss we have given shelters to Zororastrians from Iran fleeing "MUSLIM" persecution and Buddhist Tibetiains from Chinese Persecution
All this despite the fact that "Hindu" India was almost 95% Hindu during Partition, we declared ourselves a Secular state rather than a Hindu one, Have u guys called yourself secular?
MOST IMPORTANTLY: We have national holidays on Bakr'id, Parsee new year, Mahavir Jayanti, etc
Do any Muslim countries have Holidays on Dussera *or *Janmashtami?
Dont u tell me rot about Hinduism without knowing anything...
*All your references are nonsense pakistani and muslim propoganda
*
Why is it that only Muslims feel oppressed and victimised, all this when u have come in as invaders, killed people in their homelands and then expect self rule? eg Spain and Kashmir and the whole of Pakistan( remember was once Hindu ruled)
It's wrong
We see u guys in that light because :
--Muslims can't get along with Christians in Nigeria and Sudan
--They can't get along with Eastern Orthodox in Eastern Europe
--They can't get along with Hindus and Buddhists in Malaysia
--They can't get along with Hindus in the Sub-Continent
--They can't get along with Buddhists in Thailand and Burma
--They can't get along with Catholics in the Philippines
--They can not get along with majority Chinese in mainland China
--They can not get along with majority Russian (Muslims in Chechnya) in Russia
--They can't get along with Jews in the Middle East
--They can't get along with Coptic Christians in Egypt
--They can't get along with Christians in Indonesia
--They can't get along with Ba'hai in Iran
--Sunnis can't get along with Ahmadis on the Sub-Continent and want to
exterminate them.
In some of these cases, the atrocities are on both sides and there is plenty
of blame to share by both sides. Nevertheless, there is a pattern here that
is very disturbing.
*** Islam has more trouble coexisting with others than any other religion Remember that all the references of christians and Hindus mistreating Muslims come from Non-Muslim sources,
So we are men enough to admit that mistakes did happen and if we admit that, we automatically admit it is wrong
But the Butchery done by Muslims is limitless in the world... all the references of murders are neatly brushed under the carpet, so much so I did not find ANY history of the Muslims written **by Muslims on the internet, though there are many Muslim historians who travelled to India wid your Muslim Brigands (kings they call themselves)
And when these historians are quoted, they are claimed to be false by u muslims, how convenient
Finally for all your pain in Kashmir, Sir the Indian army was deployed in Kashmir **after the insurgency started **before that law and order was in the hands of Kashmir Police which is Majorly Muslim
So cut the cr*p that Muslims are retaliating against rape, loot and massacre,ok
Lahore 981 my dear friend u only fool yourself, no one else
Your sources please?where have we butchered, Jains, sikhs, buddhists, and Muslims( in greater detail below)
Yes, a muslim army attacks Spain within 100 yrs(732 AD) of muhammad's death and u dont expect them to retailiate. remember Muslims attacked Spain, Spain did not attack Makkah, right?
I hold them guilty as well
Contrary to popular pakistani belief, a significant part of the Indian army is Muslim and also we have 2 army regiments that recruit directly from Kashmiri Muslims "The Jammu and Kahsmir Rifles" and "The Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry"... The Police force in Kashmir is almost fully Muslim...
And these Muslim security forces are raping muslims, how convincing is that, moreover the world press has free access to J&K(unlike POK) but no one apart from the paki propaganda machine *claims *these incidents
**Of course, some violations are bound to happen but they are freely reported by our press and the guilty are punished
The **same indian government **has **documented **the **rape of Kashmiri and Balgladeshi **damsels in 1948 and 1971 respectively,by MUSLIM Pakistani Army and Afghan Tribals, but that is nonsense isn't it?
Funny how u pakis and muslims in general can hold one claim by an authority to be genuine and another claim by the same authority is bull cp
*Besides, have u heard of Panun Kashmir? Its an organisation of displaced kashmiri pandits by your muslim terrorists in their own home land who had to leave under threat of death... any way these pandits were established here even before Islam was preached, muslims came here as invaders, and forced hindus to leave... i am one of those hindus
*
Have u read of "Direct action day"(Aug 16 1946) by your beloved Jinah? read reports by non-indian reporters from time and other magazines on the internet...then u will know who started the rioting... also the killing of refugees was triggered after the first train laden with bodies reached Amritsar from **Lahore
**The indian army gave protection to muslims as ordered by the government of India (this is incidentally the same Hindu army that "kills, rapes and loots" Kashmiris today) and Gandhi visited the muslim areas and asked hindus to be tolerant... did Jinnah do the same?did the pak army protect hindus in pak?
There are 200 million muslims in India(more than the whole paki population), how many Hindus are in pakistan?
So u need a crash course in history
More Bull Sh*t
U tell me how have hindus treated Jains? I myself believe in Mahavira as an enlightened soul and been to their temples.. have u even been to India? Jains like all people are free to practice their religion if u did u must have met more Muslims like yourself, and not Hindus...
Other religions? Boss we have given shelters to Zororastrians from Iran fleeing "MUSLIM" persecution and Buddhist Tibetiains from Chinese Persecution
All this despite the fact that "Hindu" India was almost 95% Hindu during Partition, we declared ourselves a Secular state rather than a Hindu one, Have u guys called yourself secular?
MOST IMPORTANTLY: We have national holidays on Bakr'id, Parsee new year, Mahavir Jayanti, etc
Do any Muslim countries have Holidays on Dussera *or *Janmashtami?
Dont u tell me rot about Hinduism without knowing anything...
*All your references are nonsense pakistani and muslim propoganda
*
Why is it that only Muslims feel oppressed and victimised, all this when u have come in as invaders, killed people in their homelands and then expect self rule? eg Spain and Kashmir and the whole of Pakistan( remember was once Hindu ruled)
It's wrong
We see u guys in that light because :
--Muslims can't get along with Christians in Nigeria and Sudan
--They can't get along with Eastern Orthodox in Eastern Europe
--They can't get along with Hindus and Buddhists in Malaysia
--They can't get along with Hindus in the Sub-Continent
--They can't get along with Buddhists in Thailand and Burma
--They can't get along with Catholics in the Philippines
--They can not get along with majority Chinese in mainland China
--They can not get along with majority Russian (Muslims in Chechnya) in Russia
--They can't get along with Jews in the Middle East
--They can't get along with Coptic Christians in Egypt
--They can't get along with Christians in Indonesia
--They can't get along with Ba'hai in Iran
--Sunnis can't get along with Ahmadis on the Sub-Continent and want to
exterminate them.
In some of these cases, the atrocities are on both sides and there is plenty
of blame to share by both sides. Nevertheless, there is a pattern here that
is very disturbing.
*** Islam has more trouble coexisting with others than any other religion Remember that all the references of christians and Hindus mistreating Muslims come from Non-Muslim sources,
So we are men enough to admit that mistakes did happen and if we admit that, we automatically admit it is wrong
But the Butchery done by Muslims is limitless in the world... all the references of murders are neatly brushed under the carpet, so much so I did not find ANY history of the Muslims written **by Muslims on the internet, though there are many Muslim historians who travelled to India wid your Muslim Brigands (kings they call themselves)
And when these historians are quoted, they are claimed to be false by u muslims, how convenient
Finally for all your pain in Kashmir, Sir the Indian army was deployed in Kashmir **after the insurgency started **before that law and order was in the hands of Kashmir Police which is Majorly Muslim
So cut the cr*p that Muslims are retaliating against rape, loot and massacre,ok
Lahore 981 my dear friend u only fool yourself, no one else
Your sources please?where have we butchered, Jains, sikhs, buddhists, and Muslims( in greater detail below)
Yes, a muslim army attacks Spain within 100 yrs(732 AD) of muhammad's death and u dont expect them to retailiate. remember Muslims attacked Spain, Spain did not attack Makkah, right?
I hold them guilty as well
Contrary to popular pakistani belief, a significant part of the Indian army is Muslim and also we have 2 army regiments that recruit directly from Kashmiri Muslims "The Jammu and Kahsmir Rifles" and "The Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry"... The Police force in Kashmir is almost fully Muslim...
And these Muslim security forces are raping muslims, how convincing is that, moreover the world press has free access to J&K(unlike POK) but no one apart from the paki propaganda machine *claims *these incidents
**Of course, some violations are bound to happen but they are freely reported by our press and the guilty are punished
The **same indian government **has **documented **the **rape of Kashmiri and Balgladeshi **damsels in 1948 and 1971 respectively,by MUSLIM Pakistani Army and Afghan Tribals, but that is nonsense isn't it?
Funny how u pakis and muslims in general can hold one claim by an authority to be genuine and another claim by the same authority is bull cp
*Besides, have u heard of Panun Kashmir? Its an organisation of displaced kashmiri pandits by your muslim terrorists in their own home land who had to leave under threat of death... any way these pandits were established here even before Islam was preached, muslims came here as invaders, and forced hindus to leave... i am one of those hindus
*
Have u read of "Direct action day"(Aug 16 1946) by your beloved Jinah? read reports by non-indian reporters from time and other magazines on the internet...then u will know who started the rioting... also the killing of refugees was triggered after the first train laden with bodies reached Amritsar from **Lahore
**The indian army gave protection to muslims as ordered by the government of India (this is incidentally the same Hindu army that "kills, rapes and loots" Kashmiris today) and Gandhi visited the muslim areas and asked hindus to be tolerant... did Jinnah do the same?did the pak army protect hindus in pak?
There are 200 million muslims in India(more than the whole paki population), how many Hindus are in pakistan?
So u need a crash course in history
More Bull Sh*t
U tell me how have hindus treated Jains? I myself believe in Mahavira as an enlightened soul and been to their temples.. have u even been to India? Jains like all people are free to practice their religion if u did u must have met more Muslims like yourself, and not Hindus...
Other religions? Boss we have given shelters to Zororastrians from Iran fleeing "MUSLIM" persecution and Buddhist Tibetiains from Chinese Persecution
All this despite the fact that "Hindu" India was almost 95% Hindu during Partition, we declared ourselves a Secular state rather than a Hindu one, Have u guys called yourself secular?
MOST IMPORTANTLY: We have national holidays on Bakr'id, Parsee new year, Mahavir Jayanti, etc
Do any Muslim countries have Holidays on Dussera *or *Janmashtami?
Dont u tell me rot about Hinduism without knowing anything...
*All your references are nonsense pakistani and muslim propoganda
*
Why is it that only Muslims feel oppressed and victimised, all this when u have come in as invaders, killed people in their homelands and then expect self rule? eg Spain and Kashmir and the whole of Pakistan( remember was once Hindu ruled)
It's wrong
We see u guys in that light because :
--Muslims can't get along with Christians in Nigeria and Sudan
--They can't get along with Eastern Orthodox in Eastern Europe
--They can't get along with Hindus and Buddhists in Malaysia
--They can't get along with Hindus in the Sub-Continent
--They can't get along with Buddhists in Thailand and Burma
--They can't get along with Catholics in the Philippines
--They can not get along with majority Chinese in mainland China
--They can not get along with majority Russian (Muslims in Chechnya) in Russia
--They can't get along with Jews in the Middle East
--They can't get along with Coptic Christians in Egypt
--They can't get along with Christians in Indonesia
--They can't get along with Ba'hai in Iran
--Sunnis can't get along with Ahmadis on the Sub-Continent and want to
exterminate them.
In some of these cases, the atrocities are on both sides and there is plenty
of blame to share by both sides. Nevertheless, there is a pattern here that
is very disturbing.
*** Islam has more trouble coexisting with others than any other religion Remember that all the references of christians and Hindus mistreating Muslims come from Non-Muslim sources,
So we are men enough to admit that mistakes did happen and if we admit that, we automatically admit it is wrong
But the Butchery done by Muslims is limitless in the world... all the references of murders are neatly brushed under the carpet, so much so I did not find ANY history of the Muslims written **by Muslims on the internet, though there are many Muslim historians who travelled to India wid your Muslim Brigands (kings they call themselves)
And when these historians are quoted, they are claimed to be false by u muslims, how convenient
Finally for all your pain in Kashmir, Sir the Indian army was deployed in Kashmir **after the insurgency started **before that law and order was in the hands of Kashmir Police which is Majorly Muslim
So cut the cr*p that Muslims are retaliating against rape, loot and massacre,ok
Lahore 981 my dear friend u only fool yourself, no one else
[FONT=Times New Roman]
Good point TG.
My humble, request because this thread is mainly, to educate ourselves with the beliefs of Hindus and the Sacred Scriptures.
The points put forward to Lahore 981 is repeated in two threads.
We dont wont this thread to have any hindrance in terms of deviations to other topics.
These classisications though mentioned in the Scriptures, I dunno if they are in the Vedas, May be the derived scriptures
More over these I will call classes and not castes
Also these castes are not higher or lower they are merely an indication of profession:
Bhramins- religious ( same as Immams )
Kshyatriyas - Warrior/ruling class
Vaishavs - Traders
Shudras - Artisans and Workers ( Masons,Farmers etc)
There is no restriction on moving from one class to another...
In the Mahabharat, all the warcraft was taught to the Pandavs by Dhronacharya, a brahmin who later went into battle himself, which shows he took a Kshatriya's role
Arjun (a Kshatriya )was revealed the Bhagwad Gita, so he was given religious knowledge(ie not restricted to brahmins alone)
Valmiki was a Shudra but later went on to become a rishi ( a brahmin)
So there is no distinction
Also these classifications were also to see which jobs were most suited to one class of people
ie The Gujrati community is the premier trading community in India ( they are vaishavs by class) and are very few in the armed forces
Even the british who did not believe or know the Indian class system divided the populace into Martial and non martial races... the martial races got army regiments of their own and these people have been callsified as Kshatriyas since long
So u see it not insignificant but it certainly was not a rigid system
More over these I will call classes and not castes
Also these castes are not higher or lower they are merely an indication of profession:
Bhramins- religious ( same as Immams )
Kshyatriyas - Warrior/ruling class
Vaishavs - Traders
Shudras - Artisans and Workers ( Masons,Farmers etc)
There is no restriction on moving from one class to another...
In the Mahabharat, all the warcraft was taught to the Pandavs by Dhronacharya, a brahmin who later went into battle himself, which shows he took a Kshatriya's role
Arjun (a Kshatriya )was revealed the Bhagwad Gita, so he was given religious knowledge(ie not restricted to brahmins alone)
Valmiki was a Shudra but later went on to become a rishi ( a brahmin)
So there is no distinction
Also these classifications were also to see which jobs were most suited to one class of people
ie The Gujrati community is the premier trading community in India ( they are vaishavs by class) and are very few in the armed forces
Even the british who did not believe or know the Indian class system divided the populace into Martial and non martial races... the martial races got army regiments of their own and these people have been callsified as Kshatriyas since long
So u see it not insignificant but it certainly was not a rigid system
Ok so over a certain period, the generic meanings have changed.
I was under a misconception, that was explained impeccably. Righty said the commoners hardly recognise the above quoted examples.
Because what I heard was Brahmins are allowed to touch and read the Sacred scriptures. The next two classes can only hear it.
Where as shudras are isolated from reading,touching and hearing respectively.
Got to know this from my Hindu friend but examples are quite pellucid now.
karma means cause and effect or action and reaction.
There are three types of karma in Hinduism:
*sanchita karma *- the sum total of past karmas yet to be resolved;
*Prarabda karma *-that portion of sanchita karma that is to be experienced in this life; and
*kriyamana karma *- the karma that humans are currently creating, which will bear fruit in future.
Based on these karma, a mans destiny or life takes shape and also his birth. If there are any unfullfilled karmas or desires, then the man comes back. http://www.answers.com/topic/karma-in-hinduism
Also the word "Caste" is a British invention, the oxford dictionary defines it as "Indain hereditary system of ..."
The correct terminology is "Class" system NOT "Caste" system for the 4 Varnas
Also when the 4 Varna are discussed in Bhagvad Gita, they mention classification on Human capability, or aptitude, birth or lineage is not mentioned at all...
To top it all, the class system is omnipresent in our society...
we've all heard of the "Medical fraternity" or the "Armed Forces",
Some people choose to be Engineers, Doctors, Priests/Holy Men, Teachers- These are Brahmins
Some Choose to be Soldiers, Firemen or Policemen- These are Kshyatriyas
Some choose to be Bussinessmen, Service providers, and traders- These are Vaishya
Some people are Factory labourers, Farmers, Potters, (ie Blue collared work force) - These are Shudra
So u see the Class system is seen today...
That is basically the wonder of the Vedas, U will see all things mentioned in it that are relevant today as they were 8000 yrs ago
tommygunCan you give some examples when a 'Shudra', a sweeper or sweeper' son was recognized and named as a 'Brahmin' when he became a teacher or ' Kshatrya' when he joined army or so..in our entire history of Hinduism.
Also You show me one place in the Vedas that say he can't
Also I am no vedic scholar, infact i know very little
Two posts above my dear friend, if u take the trouble of reading them
once again I repeat, the Gita does not mention any reference the "birth" of a person for a specific Varna, only capability
most prominient example is Dr. Baba Saheb Amderkar, though he came from a Shudra community, he is the architect of the constitution on the Republic of India
Moreover, read the posts above again to get the concept right
If a sweepers son does not show academic, military or business skills he will have to choose a different profession or else he will starve.
If a sweepers son does well in school, gets an engineering degree, does his masters, wont he have a different job?
Also I am born in a Brahmin family, but it does not mean I am a Brahmin, unless I choose to be a teacher or a priest... get the difference?
