Point is not the site nor the mosque the point is that india calls it self a secular state.
Now if you donot know what that means then its all fine.
But demolishing a mosque because the site might be an old temple is against secularism. Simply don't call your self what you aren't.
Oh wise one! Secular does not mean muslims give up their religion or Hindus and christians and jews and zoroastrians and Jains and Bhuddhists and Sikhs give up theirs. It simply means the government, the laws of the nation and policies will not favor any particular religion.
All holy places are protected. Just like you'd like to have Mecca protected as a muslim site, why wouldn't you respect the will of the Sikhs to protect the Amritsar temple and the Hindus theirs?
Obviously in India you're going to encounter a majority of Hindu sites considering the longevity of the religion and the number of people.
Hindus know that they cannot go and rebuild every temple that was desecrated and destroyed by muslim invaders. But there are some sites that bear even more special significane. Lord Rama being such a key figure, obviously they believe that reclaiming His birthplace provides some amount of restoration to the muslim atrocity.
I personally will not fight for reparation or restoration at the cost of destruction of property or loss of life. However I understand that just like muslims hold their religion dear, other do to.
It is not vengeance. If vengeance you'd have seem tens of thousands of mosques / dargas destroyed.
I also do not want to say this is some kind of logically thought out measured act by Hindus. I would rather we build libraries, schools and hospitals since we all have an abundant supply of places of worship.
But in case of Ayodhya, if it so established that there is a temple where escavations took place, I believe Hindus have a stronger claim than muslims on above grounds (no pun intended)
India is a unique country in the world, where thousands of mosques are standing at the sites of Hindu temples and the majority Hindu can not do anything.
For one Ram temple this majority community has to wait for judicial result.
India is something an ultra secular nation.
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Originally posted by absconder: *
India is a unique country in the world, where thousands of mosques are standing at the sites of Hindu temples and **the majority Hindu can not do anything.*
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Did extremists among the majority Hindu's not killl thousands of Muslims across India, after the demolition of Babri Masjid? Is that what you call doing nothing?
Malik/ Wise, do you agree that many of your forefathers demolished Hindu temples?
Do you feel shame for that?
After we can discuss of Bombay riots, and of Gujarat massacre, and off course we will talk of Godhra also, if you do not mind>
^ Absconder - Our Fore fathers were Hindus and I dont think they demolished any temple. Those who demolished Temples to Build mosques were barbarians who attacked India and I am very sure they were not our fore fathers. Ghaznis,Aurangzebs and Jehangirs are not our ancestors.
^ Exactly. Most muslims in the subcontinent are converts. Ofcourse there's probably a contingent that are descendents of the invading soldiers.
Dear Asif, your reply is correct in individual capacity. Indian Muslims know well that both the communities, Hindu and Muslims are soft towards each other. (Even after mutual riots or Godhra/ Gujrata massacres)
(There is a fulstop, when it comes to the Muslim organization. And you may know that the most babaric personalities of Muslim cultture, like Aurangzeb are heroes in Pak history.)
I have to make some changes.
Do Muslims accept that Muslims destroyed Hindu temples in Indian subcontinent?
Do Muslims feel shame for that?
Do Muslims accept that Muslims destroyed Hindu temples in Indian subcontinent ?
If there are historical evidences, then yes, some muslim invaders and rulers destroyed hindu Temples.
*Do Muslims feel shame for that? *
NO, Why should I be ashamed for what an invader from Afghanistan or mongolia or Ghazni did.
Tom dude you are going in circle :rotato:
As far as i know indian government does not take the responsibility of demolishing the mosque which means it was done by extremist. Now what action has indian government taken against those extremist? nothing,zilch.
And that means they are favouring those extremist which is against secularism.
Hope you got it this time around
Two different things.
people cannot take law in their own hand; so prosecuting those that demolished the mosque is fine with me. It'll take time given speed of Indian judiaciary
If proven that it is a temple site, given where this issue has gotten to, the mosque cannot be rebuilt. However most of the land should imo be used for building public institutions rather than any huge temple complexes. May be a small temple to worship.
Two Facts
1)Indian judiaciary is slower than a snail in this case which is very odd considering the riots between Hindu, Muslim population.
2)It hasn't be proved and mosque has been demolished already. So there.
When justice is delayed it is denied.
Has anyone ever wondered that if Taliban blast Budha's statue they are extremist but when India does samething it is secular. Double standarads of the world.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by absconder: *
Malik/ Wise, do you agree that many of your forefathers demolished Hindu temples?
Do you feel shame for that?
After we can discuss of Bombay riots, and of Gujarat massacre, and off course we will talk of Godhra also, if you do not mind>
[/QUOTE]
So you are justifying the murder of thousands upon thousands of Muslims just after the demolition of Babri Masjid, and then the burning, rape and slaughter of thousands of more Muslims in Gujrat on claims of what some forefathers allegdly did hundreds and hundreds of years ago? It is so sad that the government in India is promoting this sort of hate, that if not checked and defeated by secular forces will lead to a holocaust in India.
Dear Asif, this is the problem. You accept that some Muslim invaders destroyed Hindu temples and at the same time you ask for evidence.
Same is the theme of leaders of Muslim organizations. You are a little forward, they even do not accept that invaders did anything wrong.
Reg your demand of evidence, why you do not visit Mathura, Krishna temple/ vs Arangzeb Mosque or Qutub Minar at Delhi?
You do not require any survey or digging if you have normal eyesight.
My question is very relevant,
Do Muslims accept that Muslims destroyed Hindu temples in Indian subcontinent?
Do Muslims feel shame for that?
Mr Malik, we will definitely discuss all your claims of Bombay and Gujarat riots (as well as Godhra, you habitually forget), if you have courage to answer my question,
Do Muslims accept that Muslims destroyed Hindu temples in Indian subcontinent?
Do Muslims feel shame for that?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Prince Abbas: *
Point is that Hindus have no proof whatsoever that there was a temple there. There is no way it could be established that Raam was born at the very same site.
The reason Hindus are making hue and cry is that they want this to happen to several other mosques and sites in India. Babri Masjid is just the start of a bigger plan.
So anybody who thinks that giving up Babri Masjid is going to solve the problem is thinking wrong. It is not going to clean up the issue, it is going to aggravate it.
Hindus are going to start claiming other Muslim sites on one pretext or another, after their campaign against Babri Masjid.
The matter is not as simple as it seems.
Iss se Islam ko nuqsaan nahin pohanchta magar musalmaanon aur unn ki tareekh ko shadeed nuqsaan ponhchay ga.
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hmmm....i see...
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But that's not what Hindus plan to do with the Masjid.
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hmmm that was just a solution i suggested...
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Sorry, but this frustration should be directed more towards Hindus, not Muslims.
Hindus are responsible for this mess, not Muslims. They are the guilty party. All their claims are mere allegations, with no proof whatsoever.
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i was not directing any frustration towards Muslims! ofcourse not...! i think u might have misunderstood what i was saying :-) i was just expressing frustration at the situation that so many innocent ppl r getting killed over this issue...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by absconder: *
Mr Malik, we will definitely discuss all your claims of Bombay and Gujarat...
[/QUOTE]
Then do so. Do you think anything you claim that happened or is supposed to have happened hundreds of years ago, in any way justifies the mass slaughter of Muslims across India after the demolition of Babri Masjid, or the genocide of Muslims in Gujrat?
Despite the claims of those who claim the contrary this thread has truly proved that Hindvuta extremism is now firmly entrenched in the minds of many Indian's, who are going back hundreds and hundreds of years to justify killing Muslims.
Not at all, no one is justifying the killings of muslims on what happened 100's of years ag0 -
Absconder has asked a theoretical question that is of interest to even me. Please do not link the 2, just answer if you can so we can proceed with the apologising and explaining....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
...Despite the claims of those who claim the contrary this thread has truly proved that Hindvuta extremism is now firmly entrenched in the minds of many Indian's...
[/QUOTE]
Indeed. The ruling Hindu nationalist BJP won the polls in Gujarat by a landslide. Victory was achieved by whipping up sentiment against India's religious minorities, mainly Muslims. Narendra Modi, won the majority support by creating the spectre of "Hindus in danger." He is now feted by Vajpayee – regarded by many Indian guppies as their greatest PM.
Dear Malik, or Asif/ Do Muslims (or You in particular) condemn, whatever wrongs were done in mid centuries by Muslims in Indian subcontinent, particularly to the worship places of Hindus?
Let us start this way!
All problems start here. Muslim organizations in India do not agree if any religious place was destroyed, or they ask for the proofs.
Do not worry, we will discuss Bombay and Gujarat riots, though you again forget Godhra.
Rgds
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=24729
VHP sets October 15 as deadline for temple law
Press Trust of India
New Delhi, September 15: Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) on Monday gave an ultimatum to the Centre that if it does not convene a special session of Parliament to legislate for the construction of Ram temple in Ayodhya, it would launch a nationwide agitation from October 15.