HINDU FANATICISM

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

HINDU FANATICISM

It is a historical co-incidence that in the case of Hinduism while it
accepted theological pluralism, it was intolerant with regard to the social
structure of Caste associated with it. The Caste system is not religion, but
this system was held together by the integration of religious dogma into the
social structure. This made the Caste status of the exploited and exploiter
classes, permanent, not just all through life, but for generation after
generation. Unlike a similar social division in other parts of the globe
between slaves and slave-owners, or serfs and lord. A slave could become free
and even become a slave owner. No such luck for the serfs in ancient Hindu
India - the Shudras. They were condemned to remain Shudras forever - despite
the occasional reference to the inter-caste mobility in some shastras, such
mobility never actually existed in practise.

The Manusmriti represents the zenith (or rather the nadir) of fanaticism
based on caste. It enjoins that the right to scriptural learning is the
monopoly of the Brahmins and even the accidental hearing of the vedic chants
by a Shudra is punishable by the lopping off of the Shudras ears. Although it
will be said that the Manusmriti is not a religious text and no religious
text has the kind of binding on all Hindus as the Bible has on Christians and
the Qu’ran on the Muslims. But the fact is that the Manusmriti details the
jurisprudence for a Hindu society; and the utterly unjust ideas of this text
are still held in high esteem by the retrograde among the Hindus.

Thus with complete theological tolerance, there was rigid social fanaticism in
Hindu society. While a Hindu could pray to any God, he had to conform to one
caste (of his birth). In this caste set up, the tyranny on the lower castes
(Shudras) was dehumanizing. The caste system was inhuman beyond a shade of
doubt.

One needs to remember that Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar, the architect of India’s
constitution, who was born as a Mahar (a Shudra sebset in Maharashtra) had to
drink water poured into his mouth from above, lest the “defiling” touch of his
lips “pollute” the vessel of its upper caste owner!

Thus while in theology Hinduism was tolerant, but in its social structure it
was extremely intolerant - in other words in its casteist social structure
Hindu society was (and is) inhuman and fanatical.

2

All texts quoted are AUTHENTIC!!

“If a man of one birth (Sudra) hurls cruel words at one of the twice-born, his tongue should be cut out, for he was born from the rear-end. If he mentions their name or caste maliciously, a red-hot iron nail ten-fingers long should be thrust into his mouth. If he is so proud as to instruct priests about their duty, the king should have hot oil poured into his mouth and ears.” – Manusmrti 8:270-272.

“If a man of inferior caste tries to sit down on the same seat as a man of superior caste, he should be branded on the hip and banished, or have his buttocks cut off.” – Manusmrti 8:281.

“If in the process of negotiating betrothal there are first ten suitors of the non-Brahmana varna for a woman (the marriageable girl), all of them lose their claims of marriage and, only the Brahmin, the learned one, if he grasps her hand would be her husband and only he. Not even the man of Ksatriya varna and not even the man of Vaisya varna but only the Brahmin is the husband of the bride in such cases of claimants of betrothal, and the sun, as it appears, revealing this fact to the people of five classes (4 varnas and the fifth avarna) rises up.” – Atharva Veda 5:17:8-9.

“If someone born in a Ksatriya, Vaisya, or Sudra womb should be unable to pay his fine, he may absolve himself of the debt by labour; a Brahmin should pay little by little. The king should have women, children, madmen, and the old, the poor, and the ill chastised with a whip, a bamboo cane, a rope, and so forth.” – Manusmrti 9:229-230.

“The Sudra’s duty and supreme good is nothing but obedience to famous Brahmin householders who know the Veda. If he is unpolluted, obedient to his superiors, gentle in his speech, without a sense of ‘I’, and always dependent on the Brahmins and the other (twice-born castes), he attains a superior birth (in the next life).” – Manusmrti 9:334-335.

“…thereby the Ksatriya, whenever he likes, says, ‘Hello Vaisya, just bring to me what you have stored away!’ Thus he both subdues him and obtains possession of anything he wishes by dint of this very energy.” – Satapatha Brahmana 1:3:2:15.

“One-fourth of (the punishment for) Brahmin-killing is traditionally regarded as (the punishment) for the killing of a Ksatriya, one-eighth for (killing) a Vaisya, and it should be one-sixteenth for (killing) a Sudra who knows his place.” – Manusmrti 11:127.

“A Brahmin is a great deity whether or not he is learned, just as fire is a great deity whether or not it is brought to the altar. The purifying fire with its brilliant energy is not defiled even in cremation grounds, and when oblations of butter are placed in it at sacrifices it grows even greater. Thus Brahmins should be revered in every way, even if they engage in all kinds of undesirable actions, for this is the supreme deity. If the Ksatriyas become overbearing towards the Brahmins in any way, the Brahmins themselves should subdue them, for the Ksatriyas were born from the Brahmins.” – Manusmrti 9:317-320.

“A Ksatriya in adversity may also make a living by all of these (means); but he should never be so proud as to assume the livelihood of his betters. If a man of the lowest caste should, through greed, make his living by the innate activities of his superiors, the king should confiscate his wealth and banish him immediately. One’s own duty, (even) without any good qualities, is better than someone else’s duty well done; for a man who makes his living by someone else’s duty immediately falls from (his own) caste.” – Manusmrti 10:95-97.

“With whatever limb an inferior insults or hurts his superior in caste, of that limb the king shall cause him to be deprived. If he places himself on the same seat with his superior, he shall be banished with a mark on his buttocks. If he spits on him, he shall lose both lips; If he breaks wind against him, his hindparts; If he uses abusive language, his tongue. If a (lowborn) man through pride gives instruction (to a member of the highest caste) concerning his duty, let the king order hot oil to be dropped into his mouth. If a (low-born man) mentions the name or caste of a superior revilingly, an iron pin, ten inches long, shall be thrust into his mouth (red hot).” – Visnusmrti 5:19-25.

“His (Purusa’s) mouth became the Brahmin; his arms were made into the Ksatriya, his thighs the Vaisya, and from his feet the Sudra was born.” – Rig Veda 10:90:12.

In comparison, Sudras are as low as feet & Outcastes (avarna) are even below that status of course.

3

soo true…

Hindoos by nature are fanatics who kill innocent civilians and they also burn their woman…

Go to sleep happily.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

4

Most Hindus don't take thier religion too its very limit. Those who do are very few in numbers and they all are in India. I have many Hindu friends who are tolerant and respected people. There are fanatics in every religion, including Islam, Christianity and Judaism, as well as moderates.

5

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**soo true...

Hindoos by nature are fanatics who kill innocent civilians and they also burn their woman...**
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Well they do a lot more than that! I believe they can be inhumane.

Since they are the only group of people on this planet who are still engaged in :-

HUMAN SACRIFICE
CASTE ATROCITIES
FEMALE INFANTICIDE
POISONING, BURIAL AND SUFFOCATION OF INFANT GIRLS
BRIDE-BURNING
WITCH-BURNING
SATI (WIDOW-BURNING)
AMPUTATION OF WOMENS' EARS AND NOSES
HINDU WIVES PUBLICLY DEVOURED BY DOGS
STRIPPING OF FEMALE PROPERTY
NO DIVORCE
NO REMARRIAGE
MARRIAGE TO ANIMALS
RAPE ENJOINED IN SCRIPTURES
ENFORCED ILLITERACY

6

iamnot against any religion or anything
i belive in humaity and as there are flaws in hinduism like wise there are flaws in every religion but since someone mentioned manusmriti here i wouldlike to provide this link check out the evils of hinduism yourself http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/hindu/hindu_heretics.html

7

** Please read my post with an open mind keeping you hatred against Hindus and Indians aside. **

  • What was considered right 12 years ago in Russia, Communism, is not considered right anymore.
  • What was considered right 300 years ago in America, Slavery, is not considered right by Americans anymore.
  • All time estimates, (both, western and Indian) ones that do not assume the world to be only 4000 years old (based on biblical dating), clearly estimate Hindu scriptures mentioned here (in these threads) to be atleast 5000-7000 years old.

Present day America and present day India have laws to reverse their previous practices and India even uses positive discrimination to reverse caste based effects -> 69% reservation for backward, most backward, shceduled caste, scheduled tribess and the remaining 31% is for open competition.

As do enforcement of every other law, due to the poor political setup and bureucracy, India has not abolished casteism in every remote village of India as America did unto slavery, though nobody can get away through open caste based discrimination.

In fact India has a democratic system in place, through which these dalits have repeatedly demonstrated their strength in many many states and set the agenda and policy.

IMO, it would a shame on anybody to accuse present day America of slavery, or present day Hindus of casteism or Sati (In fact sati came into existence, as hindu women tried to save themselves from being raped by Islamic invaders. There is no sati in Hindu Tamilnadu - Muslims never captured it. After these Islamic invasions came down in British Raj, Sati became illegal.)

No scripture in Hinduism, including manu smriti or Bhagavadh gita has to be followed or has to be left uncorrected in its implementation, by Hindus. Present day Hindusim does in NO way reflect the precriptions of Manu smriti and Gita on caste and guess what, they don't have to be - as it has been 6000 years since they had been written.

*Hinduism is open to change, is willing to change and is changing. *

If you still wanna stick to these books and talk about some aspects it that delight you, it is not "religion", it is "religious history". No offence, you may not be able to appreciate the difference between "religion" and "Religious history", because of the infancy of your religion. Your great grand children might!

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited July 31, 2001).]

8

If you guys really would like to know about hindus, talk to them or visit India or Nepal.

Don't learn about Hinduism from hate sites - for there are many against Islam too - which aren't true.

9

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**If you guys really would like to know about hindus, talk to them or visit India or Nepal.

Don't learn about Hinduism from hate sites - for there are many against Islam too - which aren't true.**
[/quote]

Correct.
Now give me a history book or a reference which says that 'sati' originated because of Muslim invaders' raping Hindu women.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

10

Following the GADP (like GAAP - D for discussion) rules of this forum regarding references,

“You should find it yourself as it is about your religion. Hey I know more about your religion than you…”

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

But, let us break the rule for a moment..I will be back with some…during the weekend.

Till then ponder on onething…

  • There is no Sati in Hindu Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Southern Karnataka, Southern Andhra pradesh
  • There is no Sati in Hindu Nepal
  • There is no Sati in Hindu North East India
  • There is no Sati in Hindu parts of Srilanka

** - Sati was aggressively practiced by Rajputs and other people of Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Southern UP. ** (These people and only these people faced the brunt of repeated Islamic/Other invasions.)

  • Sati was legally banned during the British Raj (after the Islamic invasions subsided) by the efforts of many Social reformers.

Why could that be?

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited July 31, 2001).]

11

only through legislation we can make it level playing field for everbody.
income of the family also taken into account
when quota system is implemented.

12

well, if you are here just to laugh

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

keep laughin, i thought you have some ‘serious-thinking’ capability.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

keep laughing,

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

i’m laughing too.

go and bring your refernces, Ibrahim already proved that you don’t know about your religion

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

, you don’t have any idea about truthfulness of Islam and you think you know more than me

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

then keep thinking, check your medicines if they cause hallucinations

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited July 31, 2001).]

13

Changez_Like:

There is no need for mockery when we are seriously discussing things here. Read my post again to see if my post was serious or not.

I respect your challenge for a reference. I am not running away from it, nor am I saying like your friend to look it up yourself.

I will be back with proof about the fact that it is Islamic vandalism that brought up sati in India.

** I have to do some search in the library. give me 1 day. If you have seen my previous arguments, you would know how religious I am with neutral references. **

Though we are deviating from the main topic of "Hindu fanatism-does it exist? and Relevance of Manu smriti in present day India", I will surely come back with references

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited July 31, 2001).]

14

The powerful feudal lords in Pakistan are all "upper caste" hindus. They still retain their titles like "Chaudhry" etc.
Three groups found in Indian Muslims of Bengal:

1.Ashraf or better class Muslims - The Sainads, Sheikhs, Pathans, Moghul, Mallik, and Mirza.
2.Ajlaf or lower caste Muslims - Cultivating Sheikhs, and others who were originally Hindus, Darzi, Jolaha, Fakir,

Mallah, Kula Kunjara, Kasai, Kalal, Dhunia, Abdal, Bako, Chamba, Dafali, Dhobi, Hajjan, etc.
3.Arzal or degraded class - include Bhanar, Halalkhor, Hijra, Kasbi, Lalbegi, Maugta, Mehra.

15

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Changez_Like:

There is no need for mockery when we are seriously discussing things here. Read my post again to see if my post was serious or not.

I respect your challenge for a reference. I am not running away from it, nor am I saying like your friend to look it up yourself.

I will be back with proof about the fact that it is Islamic vandalism that brought up sati in India.

** I have to do some search in the library. give me 1 day. If you have seen my previous arguments, you would know how religious I am with neutral references. **

Though we are deviating from the main topic of "Hindu fanatism-does it exist? and Relevance of Manu smriti in present day India", I will surely come back with references

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited July 31, 2001).]**
[/quote]

Thats what I like to see in a person, 'discussion'. Thanks, thats much better.

I agree that your books will represent some history that Hinduism has gone through, and understand your concept of "religious history".

Hindu fanaticsm exists or not is as debatable as Muslim fanaticism exists or not. People are far from the religion, not following closely anymore. Day by day, less number of Muslims are following religion closeley.

Muslims or Islam is not open to 'adaption' all the way, there are limits to everything.

Christianity opened itself up for 'adaption' and now you can compare them how religious majority now is, and how religious was their majority 2-5 hundred years ago.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

16

In the mean time (b4 I get references), let me add, in Hinduism everything is acceptable and is very open for change.

You can call anything to be god or you can even call nothing to be god. There is nothing that is blasphemic or that would hurt the sentiments of a mature Hindu, but on the other hand, everything is sacred.

There are no hard and fast rules. In fact Hinduism was not meant to be a morality preaching religion. It just evolved as a school of thought, which broke into many segments, rejoined, reoriented and thus evolved and matured.

What was considered as right at one point of time was considered wrong at another. There have been bad implementation fo Hinduism in the past and there might be in the future. And in the past, it could have been the best implentation during its times or could be the worst.

** Hence, bringing the old and outdated concepts of Hinduism and calling the present day religion to be fanatic is an argument that needs pity, not serious attention. **

Before you call Hindus to be fanatic go find out:

  • How many Hindus fast during Ramadan in India?
  • How many Hindus cried when Babri Masjid was demolished?

  • How many hindus accept the loss of their Sunday just because a new church in a tatched hut blasts its prayers on its Public address system?

  • Do you know, Kanchi Kamakoti Sakaracharya mutt - one of the most sacred and religious places of Hinduism, shares a compund with a mosque where prayers are held five times a day?

  • Go, seek, investigate...before jumping into conclusions about a religion which you don't know.

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited July 31, 2001).]

17

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
** [li]There is no Sati in Hindu Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Southern Karnataka, Southern Andhra pradesh[/li][li]There is no Sati in Hindu Nepal[/li][li]There is no Sati in Hindu North East India[/li][li]There is no Sati in Hindu parts of Srilanka ** [/li][/quote]

Sati for Dummies!

”Suttee” or Sanskrit “Sati” is the Indian custom of a widow burning herself, either on the funeral pyre of her dead husband or soon after his death. Sometimes, the wife was immolated before the husband's expected death in battle, (eg. when the men were to fight a battle against all odds), it is then known as “Jauhar “

How prevalent is it?

In 1990, more than 50 widows were burnt alive in sati. [Sonali Verma, Reuter,12 August 1997, New Delhi]

Note: The data gathered for the report of 50 widows burned to death was not gathered on a collective basis, but as data for micro-sections of India.

Do today’s Hindus sanction this practice?

Ask any modern Hindu today and he/she will vehemently deny that such a thing had existed in Hinduism.

There are a number of common excuses that Hindus are fond of conveying in this respect

1) They will deny that it has anything to do with Hinduism

2) It is not a Hindu practice but introduced by Muslims and practiced by ignorant Hindus.

3) It was a custom before and had been banned and no one actually practices it nowadays. It is Obsolete.

4) Hinduism had some errors BUT we have changed

We should not blame the Hindus for coming up with the above lame excuses since it is an abominable practice and no human being in his right mind will want to accept that it is part of their religion.

On the Other hand the current hindutva practice of putting the blame on the Muslims is also despicable. And most hindus are unaware that it is being revived by the hindu rashtra fanatics of India.

So let us explore its origin

ORIGINS OF SATI

It is believed that sati originated because the Hindu needed his companions in the next world/Hindu heaven. This concept is illustrated in the Valmiki Ramayana; after Lord Rama murdered the relatively innocent Vali from ambush, Vali's wife Tara requests if he can kill her as well so she can join her husband:

"[Tara:] '(Pray) actually kill me with that very arrow with which my darling has surely been killed (by you). When killed (by you) I shall reach his presence. Vali may not feel happy without me. Even on coming in contact with celestial nymphs and gazing on them with curiosity he would certainly not love those nymphs though adorned with a chaplet of red flowers of every description and clad in a many-coloured costume, unless he sees me (there), O prince…' " -- Ramayana 4:24.

But Ramayana is an epic hence it will be rejected by Hindus claiming that Hinduism is based on the Veda and not on the epic which has been corrupted or edited by many.

So let us explore it roots, was it just a tradition or was it sanctioned by the “Timeless Veda” which is the foundation for the Vedic religion and is considered sruti ( meaning revelation) that is infallible

The most sacred of Aryan scriptures are the Vedas, and the Rig Veda, the oldest veda, explicitly sanctions the custom of sati. The following famous `Sati Hymn' of the Rig Veda was (and still is) recited during the actual immolation of the widow [ Kane 199-200 ]: -

Rig Veda X.18.7 : " Let these women, whose husbands are worthy and are living, enter the house with ghee (applied) as corrylium ( to their eyes). Let these wives first step into the pyre, tearless without any affliction and well adorned."
-- [ Rig Veda X.18.7 ] [ Kane 199-200 ]

Further, the Vishnu smirti gives only two choices for the widow:

Vishnu Smirti.XXV.14 : "If a woman's husband dies, let her lead a life of chastity, or else mount his pyre"
n [ Vis.Sm. xxv.14 ] [ Clay.13 ]
n

another translation

"(Now the duties of a woman are as follows): After the death of her husband, to preserve her chastity, or to ascend the pile (funeral pyre) after him." -- Visnusmrti 25:14.

The Brahma Purana also conveys the same in the following verses
Brahma Purana.80.75 : " It is the highest duty of the woman to immolate herself after her husband ",
-- [ Br.P. 80.75 ] [ Sheth, p.103 ]

Brahma Purana.80.76, 80.77 : " She [ the sati ] lives with her husband in heaven for as many years as there are pores in the human body, ie. for 35 million years. "
-- [ Br.P. 80.76, 80.77 ] [ Sheth 103 ]

Hence NO woman can resist this OFFER in principal, here she is told that she will Go to heaven ( when she kills herself) and will live with her husband for 35 million years

Several Hindu Goddesses also performed sati

Vishnu Purana.V.38 : " The 8 queens of Krishna, who have been named, with Rukmini at their head, embraced the body of Hari, and entered the funeral fire. Revati also embracing the corpse of Rama, entered the blazing pile, which was cool to her, happy in contact with her lord. Hearing these events, Ugrasena and Anakadundubhi, with Devaki and Rohini, committed themselves to the flames."
-- [ Vis.Pur. 5.38 ] [ Vis.Pur. {Wils} p.481 ]

In the Vamana purna

SICK SATI-SEX COMBINATION

Instead of just joining her deceased husband's funeral pyre (sati), she enjoys necrophilia as well:

"A king died childless, and his wife wept bitterly and embraced his corpse until a bird told her that she would have seven sons if she mounted her husband's funeral pyre. She obeyed, and as she entered the fire the king arose and flew into the sky with her, by his power of yoga. When the queen entered her fertile period, the king felt it his duty not to neglect her. He made love to her in the air, and his seed fell down from the sky. Then he went with her to the world of Brahma to dwell eternally. But the wives of the Seven Sages saw the cloud-like seed falling from the sky into a flower, and they thought it was Soma. Wishing to be young forever, they bathed ritually, honoured their own husbands, and drank the king's seed. The moment that they drank it [having thus unconsciously violated their chastity] they lost their holy lustre, and all their husbands abandoned them immediately as sinners. They gave birth to the seven Maruts (Storm Gods)." -- Vamana Purana 46:4-22.

Ibrahim says: Hence the notion that sati is not sanctioned in the Hinds scriptures is utterly FALSE! But Hindus have no option except to deny its existence.

18

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
** Hence, bringing the old and outdated concepts of Hinduism and calling the present day religion to be fanatic is an argument that needs pity, not serious attention. **

[/quote]

According to Deccan Herald Feb 8, 1999
international vice-president of the VHP Acharya Giriraj Kishore who once reacted to the Roop Kanwar case by saying that ''Hindu dharma has no space for satiwas now defending the practice: ''There is nothing wrong if any woman who cannot bear the separation from her husband opts to join him in his funeral pyre.

The VHP leader said the revival of 'satiwould not be out of tune with the VHPs ideology of establishing Hindu Rashtra.

The Times of India reported (14-9-87):

Jaipur- In what appeared to be a revival of a centuries-old custom of "Sati", a young woman belonging to a warrior caste of Rajasthan climbed into the funeral pyre of her husband, police said yesterday. Eighteen-year old Roop Kanwar's husband, Mansingh, had died in a hospital in Kikar district on Friday, His body was later taken to his home village at Diwrala for cremation. Roop Kanwar sat on the funeral pyre while it was lit by one of Mansingh ' s relatives. Hundreds of villagers who knew of her "Sati" well in advance gathered at the spot shouting slogans in praise of the burning widow. Police, who claimed to have received the information late, registered a case against four close relatives of Mansingh for having "HELPED" Roop Kanwar commit "Sati".

Roop Kanwar's husband, Mansingh took more than Rs. 100,000 worth of dowry in the form of money, 25 tola of gold, a TV, a radio and a refrigerator. Though Mansingh had demanded dowry worth of 200,000 rupees, her father had success- fully negotiated and reduced the amount to Rs. 100,000/=. So far in the same village more than 23 dowry killings have occurred in the last 3 years as recompense for not bringing the promised dowry in time.

The paper continues that the most revealing statement came from Mr. Cheeta Singh, a village teacher who said: "After all, she had no life to took forward to. As a widow, remarriage was out of the question in the Hindu tradition bound community".

The teacher continues: "The society treats a widow as a "kulachani" (an evil omen) and a economic liability. She has to remain barefoot, sleep on the floor and is not allowed to venture out of the house. She is slandered if seen talking to any male. It was better that she died, than live such a life "he said.

Ibrahim says: The latest Sati case was recorded in June 28, 2000 although this case has No similarities with Sati ( or being burned to death), we MUST note why the women had to kill herself and her children this way ( strangulation and poison) …since there was NO option for her in Hinduism.

When the Husband dies a women had to either stay chaste or kill herself, which means a young women who had experienced the joys of sex will have to KILL her desires ( an impossible thing for some women in this day and age) or else commit suicide. A very INHUMANE practice but that is what Hinduism is all about.

Either that or she becomes a prostitute in Varanasi for the priests to use and abuse as they will after which she will be sold to the pimps to rake in the money

(18,000 hindu web sites on the net are marketing pornography, where do you suppose they get the bulk of the women?)

Read her story:-

Widow kills children, attempts suicide

A young widow murdered her two kids and attempted suicide in Kolhapur last night.

Police said Meena Arvinda Gaikwad (23), who lived with her two children and mother-in-law at Shahupuri, had struggled to come to terms with her husband's death six months back.

Last night she strangulated her three-month-old daughter Shrutika and three-year-old-son Hrushikesh with a rope. Later, she consumed a poisonous liquid.

The incident came to in light, when Meena's mother-in-law Shashikala returned home, police said.

Meena and the children were taken to the Chhatrapati Pramila Raje Civil Hospital, where the kids were declared dead on admission.

Meena, doctors attending to her said, is recovering.

19

All right I take back my point that Sati originated after Islaic invasion. I was wrong.

At the same time the following statements hold good - after some research on the web.

[li]In olden days, Sati was prominenent among Shatriyas, due the fact that invaders usually went for the women after winning the war.[/li]
[li]Sati is more prevalent in parts of India where Islamic inavders repeatedly plundered India.[/li][li]Sati in non-existent in areas that were never under attack from invaders.[/li][li]There is no Sati in Hindu Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Southern Karnataka, Southern Andhra pradesh[/li][li]There is no Sati in Hindu Nepal[/li][li]There is no Sati in Hindu North East India[/li][li]There is no Sati in Hindu parts of Srilanka [/li][li] and lastly, Sati is almost abolished in the current times.[/li]
One isolated incidence does not indicate a prevalent practice in current day India. It only indicates how deep rooted this practice had been before. Anbd it also indicates the suuccess of the goverment to have substantially destroyed this practice how legal enforcement.

Just because one idiot bombed a place oklahoma, doesn't mean all americans are terrorist. similarly, one screwed up village only indicates how far the govt still has to go to redeem the thinking of every isolated village of India. Assuming it to be an prevalent practice in whole of India demostrates a sick intrepretation.

FYI:

[li] Divorce is legal since 1950.[/li][li] Women get a share of the property legally since 1961[/li][li] A woman can go to the police station and complain of harrassment - and the police will start with the arrest of in-laws-no questions asked.[/li][li] A dalit gets to take the first seat in every government, quasi governemt college, organization, institution, community since 1950.[/li][li] A woman gets reservation in many parts of India, like Tamil Nadu.[/li][li] Sati is illegal since 1917[/li][li] Child marriage is illegal since 1931[/li][li] Infact it is illegal to marry a woman who is less than 18 even by a day, even if it involves the permission of her parents./li
[li] Determination of sex before birth for reason other than ones that are medically necesaary is illegal since 1971.[/li][li] caste based discrimination is illegal and use of caste based words and statemennts that are derogatory is punishable.[/li][li] naming of states, cities, districts, roads or buildings with a caste name, or the name of a religion or a sect is illegal, in many parts of India.[/li][li] widow remarriage act was implemented in the 1930s.[/li][li] widows are given preference in every sector of the industry.[/li][li] Women entrepreneurs get loans even during a credit squeeze in 1996, 1999.[/li][li] Here is the height -> ** a fact that shows there is a fundamental shift in hindu thinking ** -> after may be 6000 or so years, women are being allowed to enter the sanctum sanctorum of hindu temples and lead the ritual of the diety in doing archana or veda recitation while she is mensturating, since 1991.[/li]**
A stunning change! A salute to its success!!
**
[li] The issues of Hinduism are being fixed, one after another - at their own pace. It is constantly changing - unlike some other religions of the world, who know not that they do wrong.[/li]

[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited July 31, 2001).]

20

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**All right I take back my point that Sati originated after Islaic invasion. I was wrong.

Ibrahim says; Greetings of Peace to one and all,

H1 kumarakn!

              You seem to be saying I was wrong BUT, BUT, AND BUT , hey IF you want to deceive yourself , that is your problem but trying to deceive others is a foolish thing to do.

kumarakn :At the same time the following statements hold good - after some research on the web. [li]In olden days, Sati was prominenent among Shatriyas, due the fact that invaders usually went for the women after winning the war.[/li]
Ibrahim says; Man are you awake?? What is shatriyas?? When scriptures prescribes that a woman MUST kill herself upon the death of her husband or before his death, (If it is known that he will surly die in battle)………who do you think you are trying to kid?? does this filter through to you??

Are you claiming the scriptures as false or you know better or the web author knows better?

kumarakn :[li]Sati is more prevalent in parts of India where Islamic inavders repeatedly plundered India.[/li]
Ibrahim says; Man you are deluding yourself! It is a law in Hinduism that a woman MUST kill herself upon the death of her husband so that she can join him in heaven or remain chaste to him till death (total isolation) . Did you know only married woman did this and must do this ?

kumarakn [li]Sati in non-existent in areas that were never under attack from invaders.[/li]
Ibrahim says; you are saying things in IGNORANCE , just like you do not know what is a siva purana

kumarakn [li]There is no Sati in Hindu Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Southern Karnataka, Southern Andhra pradesh and lastly, Sati is almost abolished in the current times.[/li]
Ibrahim says; Oh really, tell us about it? Do you think all cases are reported in the news papers or do you think those performing it will be Broadcasting their intend in the media?

Kumarakn: One isolated incidence does not indicate a prevalent practice in current day India. It only indicates how deep rooted this practice had been before. Anbd it also indicates the suuccess of the goverment to have substantially destroyed this practice how legal enforcement.

Ibrahim says; sheez ..go and read what took place in India in the 1990 assessment of this practice ( only reported cases, mind you amounted to 50), informed on my article sati for dummies…try to read and THINK before you talk!!!

Kumarakn: Just because one idiot bombed a place oklahoma, doesn't mean all americans are terrorist. similarly, one screwed up village only indicates how far the govt still has to go to redeem the thinking of every isolated village of India. Assuming it to be an prevalent practice in whole of India demostrates a sick intrepretation.

Ibrahim says; man you are a TRUE deceiver!!! Earlier you wanted to deny it all together, than you tried to say it was on account of Islam (which you still persist to say), now you say, only a few did it, does not mean anything....what is your problem, you mean by denying it, it will Go away from you sacred teachings??

Grow up man !

Kumarakn: he issues of Hinduism are being fixed, one after another - at their own pace. It is constantly changing - unlike some other religions of the world, who know not that they do wrong.

Ibrahim says; this is just another pathetic excuse by hindu spin doctors, when they are scriptural rulings for such practices neither you nor any law will remove them, unless you burn all the hindu scriptures and ensure NO one ever remembers them. The notion that you and hindus are changing is the excuse that deceivers make in order to hide their shame.

Please stop this scam about hindus can change because we do not follow any scripture. Better say you are an atheist and you can do what you like.

Devoted to Truth’
Ibrahim

IF you have NO SHAME do what you like!