On October 6th former Home Secretary Jack Straw created controversy by questioning whether Muslim women should wear veils. He stated that the veil was ‘a visible state of separation and difference’ and that veils made community relations difficult. This view was compounded on the 7th October when a 49-year-old mother from Liverpool was verbally abused after which she suffered the indignity of having her veil ripped from her face. A young girl in Blackburn was a victim of similar abuse. Confronted by three youths on a Friday night they shouted ‘Jack has told you to take off your veil’. When asked if he felt veils should be discarded completely Straw replied with an affirmative ‘Yes’. Naturally there was support for his view. The common argument being that the veil isn’t even Islamic so should be removed. Muslim groups disagree and see this as another attack on Islam following John Reid’s parental advice last week. The Islamic Human Rights commission stated that Mr. Straw’s words were ‘astonishing’ and ‘discriminatory’.
There have been mixed views on the actions of Mr. Straw. The disagreements outside the Muslim community have been due to his manner. Communities secretary Ruth Kelly stated ‘wearing the veil is an individual choice. There are no laws or rules which dictate what people wear.’ The debate about whether Islam prescribes the veil is irrelevant in relation to this fact since the woman has made her choice to wear it. A regular discussion since 9/11 is the integration of Muslims into British society. David Cameron last week expressed concern at Muslims living ‘parallel lives’, Senior Tory MP Greg Hands added ‘I think the veil should be socially discouraged. It does send a strong feeling of separateness.’ The issue with the veil is not the veil itself but what the veil represents. The veil is a strong source of Islamic identity for Muslim women and this is the problem that it poses.
Britain is a secular society that entails separation of religion from public life. Secularism ensures that decisions are made based on reason and fact free from superstitious beliefs such as religion. The veil represents subservience to Allah and a rejection of Western ideals. Islam gives sovereignty to God. Muslims use the Quran and Hadith as a guide for how to live. They decide right and wrong based on these ideals even if they contradict the values and rules of the state. They believe man to be fallible and flawed and therefore a poor judge on telling man how to live. Allah however being the creator of man is infallible and has a perfect understanding of human being. Based on this understanding he has devised a perfect and most importantly a complete system by which to live. They believe Islam to be their source of identity. If a secularist were to discuss the issue of homosexuality it would deem homosexuals to be acceptable based on individual freedoms of choice. Muslims however believe homosexuality to be unacceptable based on their understanding of the Quran. This is problematic for any state looking towards integration, as you are not dealing with a simple veil, you are dealing with an alternative culture with a different source of guidance. The only way for them to integrate is for them to compromise their culture. Stephen Green director of Christian Voice was arrested and charged last month for distributing a leaflet entitled ‘Same sex sex, what does the Bible say’. Views like this are unacceptable in a secular state and seen as backward. It just doesn’t matter what the Bible says or what the Quran says. All that matters is what the elected says.
The West differentiates between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims. Fundamentalists are those Muslims who follow Islam correctly and moderates are those who have compromised. On the issue of whether animal slaughtering is acceptable in regards to halal meat. A fundamentalist would argue that the Quran has prescribed a method of slaughtering so it’s acceptable. A moderate would justify it based on reason and fact, principles that represent secular values. The West desires Muslims who adopt secular ideals as opposed to Islamic ones. So that when they decide on right and wrong they refer to British law and not to the Quran. This is the moderate Muslim and that is what it means to be integrated.
The veil is a very contentious issue. Females who wear the veil do it because they are fundamentalist. This need not be a negative term. It simply means that they follow their religion to the full. However what needs to be understood is that they live in secular society. Jack Straw’s views represent the views of a secular state. Islam stands in the way of Muslims integrating and forming a British identity. Currently it is legal to wear the veil. All it takes however is for a veiled woman to commit a crime and not be caught because her veil hid her identity for it to become a crime. If it is made illegal then Muslims need to make that difficult decision. They can choose to remove it and become moderate and acceptable or they can choose to wear it and face abuse and possibly even imprisonment. Is a secular society a place for fundamentalists? I don’t think so. Just as I don’t think secularists belong in Iran.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
^
The difference is that there is no historical precedent for opposing the veil; where as in Islamic countries conservative dress is established. Whereas Muslim conservative dress is not targeted at anyone, the opposition to the way Muslims dress is obviously in opposition to them.
Fundamentalism was a-okay until recently; so invoking the "secular" nature of British society is a non-starter. If this were true, Muslims would be having difficulty from day one. If anything, this is an imposition of a new secular culture, and as British citizens Muslims have every right to resist...rather than conform as they are not obligated to do so.
This is different; this is more akin to racism. It is an attempt to shut out an integrating minority...i.e. if anything, this should be construed as an attempt to shut out Muslims from society.
Yes, Muslims should be mindful that they have been invited into their host countries...but if the hosts start changing the rules as they go along, then this is far from something Muslims need to put up with. Laws can be changed...either way...
Islam stands in the way of integration; does this mean Muslims need to abandon Islam in order to integrate? If so, then that effectively means multi-religious societies are dead. The rubric of "personal" fail fails here as well...if one can't adorn themselves according to their faith, then in fact they are not free to profess the faith.
If one supports such a stance, i.e. Muslims are the one who need to give up their practices, then this is in effect a vote of non-confidence in pluralism.
You can't have it both ways.
And by the way, secularism is two way...the state will not interfere with religion either...it is not about the removal of religion from public...that would be laicization. and that is the French model, not the British.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
points well taken. thanks for sharing an article which has truth to facts as well.
hijab or chadowr for women in Islam is not a compulsion - it is indeed a choice and a admonished one.
the veil also as a negetive connotation - something like a woman is clad in some cloth that has to be taken off. that cheap mentality has to be eliminated.
in the context of the social and policitical debacles, mis-construel of Muslim women wearing hijab, is seen as opression of women in Islam and in societies where ' muslims men' and women exist.
the layers of reasons as to why such a concept exist has to be fully minded and reasoned with, lest non muslim societal structures begin to mock at the sacred symbolic effect that wearing hijab or chadowr has for muslims women.
on an individual and personal level, muslim women need to feel empowered in choosing what they want and feel comfortable in. if the idea is to drape a woman, and create hinderance in her ability to work or to feel able to simply walk on her own in her country, on her country's streets, because she is a woman, then, we have a problem that is one of narrow minded ness and dis regard for the God given rights of women to make their own choices as assertive and wel-meaning, self conscious individual humanbeings.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
^
The difference is that there is no historical precedent for opposing the veil; where as in Islamic countries conservative dress is established. Whereas Muslim conservative dress is not targeted at anyone, the opposition to the way Muslims dress is obviously in opposition to them.
Fundamentalism was a-okay until recently; so invoking the "secular" nature of British society is a non-starter. If this were true, Muslims would be having difficulty from day one. If anything, this is an imposition of a new secular culture, and as British citizens Muslims have every right to resist...rather than conform as they are not obligated to do so.
This is different; this is more akin to racism. It is an attempt to shut out an integrating minority...i.e. if anything, this should be construed as an attempt to shut out Muslims from society.
Yes, Muslims should be mindful that they have been invited into their host countries...but if the hosts start changing the rules as they go along, then this is far from something Muslims need to put up with. Laws can be changed...either way...
Islam stands in the way of integration; does this mean Muslims need to abandon Islam in order to integrate? If so, then that effectively means multi-religious societies are dead. The rubric of "personal" fail fails here as well...if one can't adorn themselves according to their faith, then in fact they are not free to profess the faith.
If one supports such a stance, i.e. Muslims are the one who need to give up their practices, then this is in effect a vote of non-confidence in pluralism.
You can't have it both ways.
And by the way, secularism is two way...the state will not interfere with religion either...it is not about the removal of religion from public...that would be laicization. and that is the French model, not the British.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
it's not about making it optional,....so are you saying that those women who dnt wear a hijab aren't good muslims?
No, I'm not saying that those women who don't wear hijjab are'nt good muslims.
If you don't want to wear hijjab don't wear it......but Why lie that Islam makes it Optional.
It is a clear requirement in Islam. It is the veil that is Optional.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
If you want to wear it, that don't make it mandatory either...
But the Qur'an and Sunnah make it Obligatory.
There is a difference between obligation and mandate. In mandate there is a force element, in obligation the onus is on the person to choose when clear directions have been given.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
There is no such "obligation" in the Quran so as to cover your head or hide your face with a veil... it says something different. And I already made it clear in the other thread as to what "sunnah" is supposed to be.
But the Qur'an and Sunnah make it Obligatory.
There is a difference between obligation and mandate. In mandate there is a force element, in obligation the onus is on the person to choose when clear directions have been given.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
hm......i dnt wear a hijab.....but it doesnt mean i'm the WORST of all muslims.......i mean i usually pray 5 times a day Allahumdulillah.....i try to read the Quran morning and night.....but the one thing i dnt do is wear a hijab.....and im not making any excuses.....but sometimes people dnt wear it because they dnt feel comfortable?....or because the environment forces them to?
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
hm......i dnt wear a hijab.....but it doesnt mean i'm the WORST of all muslims.......i mean i usually pray 5 times a day Allahumdulillah.....i try to read the Quran morning and night.....but the one thing i dnt do is wear a hijab.....and im not making any excuses.....but sometimes people dnt wear it because they dnt feel comfortable?....or because the environment forces them to?
Good for you...
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
hm......i dnt wear a hijab.....but it doesnt mean i'm the WORST of all muslims.......i mean i usually pray 5 times a day Allahumdulillah.....i try to read the Quran morning and night.....but the one thing i dnt do is wear a hijab.....and im not making any excuses.....but sometimes people dnt wear it because they dnt feel comfortable?....or because the environment forces them to?
Sister....I'm not calling you a bad person nor I'm forcing you to wear hijjab.
Hijjab is an obligation to Allah for both men and women and i Think you understand that....If we don't do anything that we supposed to do this is to do with our level of Iman and how our Lord chooses to judge us.
I am happy to hear that you pray. Because in Islam there is a level of priority in things. Though doing hijjab and praying are both required, confirming the prayer takes higher priority. Slowly we should improve our levels of Iman through ibadah. Some societies such as Saudi Arabia don't have the same issues as Muslims from emerging cultures, such as Pakistan. We have to find ourselves, but they have a mature culture already. I hope you understand what I am saying? There some women that I have seen who wore their khimars (head scarves) whilst wearing really tight fitting clothes and loads of make up, other swear and play around with boys and other still smoke cigarettes. Wearing the hijjab doesn't make the woman better, it just means that she is doing one more requirement that Islam wants from her.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
Sister....I'm not calling you a bad person nor I'm forcing you to wear hijjab.
Hijjab is an obligation to Allah for both men and women and i Think you understand that....If we don't do anything that we supposed to do this is to do with our level of Iman and how our Lord chooses to judge us.
I am happy to hear that you pray. Because in Islam there is a level of priority in things. Though doing hijjab and praying are both required, confirming the prayer takes higher priority. Slowly we should improve our levels of Iman through ibadah. Some societies such as Saudi Arabia don't have the same issues as Muslims from emerging cultures, such as Pakistan. We have to find ourselves, but they have a mature culture already. I hope you understand what I am saying? There some women that I have seen who wore their khimars (head scarves) whilst wearing really tight fitting clothes and loads of make up, other swear and play around with boys and other still smoke cigarettes. Wearing the hijjab doesn't make the woman better, it just means that she is doing one more requirement that Islam wants from her.
yeah i know right!
but the thing is......if they wear a hijab and go hang around with guys and smoke and wear "tight fitted" clothes......it makes them as "worse" as a person who doesnt wear a hijab but yet prays and remember their creator at the beginning of everything.......living in western world and going to a mixed school has taught me a lot :)
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
Picoico...
Firstly as for the Wests dislike of the veil...for them it is a rational thing in terms of law and order and education to not have a veil...Religion and what it prescribes doesnt matter cos we dont live in a religious society...
You asked whether Muslims have to give up their Islam in order to integrate and the answer is yes pretty much...or compromise their beliefs...
Lord Tebbitt once said in a speech on mulitculturalism that no man can hve two masters...one has to choose one...and for Muslims it is Allah or man made law...Criteria is either do what pleases Allah and avoid what he dislikes or conform to man made law...
Your a good Muslim in the West if you base you actions on reason on fact...so like i said the onbe who debates halal meat based on reason and not Quran is integration...the woman who debates the veli based on her freedoms is fine...it is when you start to say you veil is an obligation from Allah then that is more problematic as you are valuing your faith over the culture of your host country...
Multi religious societies arent dead its just religion has no place in public life...do your jummah and your fasts etc but once law has a rule you abide by it even if it contradicts your own way of life...
And i havent advocated that Muslims should give up their practices...im suggesting that Islam and secularism will conflict...im just saying that their values and practices will continuously be attacked...No soiciety is tolerant of values other than its own and the West is no different...to have a harmonious society you can only accept one source of guidance...
So i ask a question...if by some means they outlaw the veil...(lol they might do if more Somalian criminals use it to leave the country)...then what do you do?...Whose your master then?...You can keep it on and please Allah yet find yourself liable for imprisonment...or you could please the West and integrate and therefore anger Allah...
Cant have it both ways...the decisions to integrate are going to get harder and harder as times go by...
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
Dushwari...
Lol i ntoiuce that iv started a debate on the hijab...it is an obligation from Allah pure and simple its optional in the secular west...
Im not havinga debate abiut whether hijabis are better than non hijabis...im discussing the idea that Muslims who do wear either the veil or the hijab are increasingly under threat...
So to those who wear either they see it as an obligation and are going to either displease Allah or displease their host...
Whether you see it as optional or not is irrelevant in regards to those who wear it as they clearly see it as an obligation...
Telling a velied woman that its an option isnt working cos obviously she sees it as an obligation so option or non option is void as an argument in respect to the sisters being discussed...
So whose the master then when they have to make that choice?...
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue…An article i wrote a while back…
well they aren’t really under any threat…as ur in the UK too…u’d know that not many people have a problem with muslim women wearing a hijab or veil. Its just that tiny amount of people…who ofcourse are going to go against us …who take the piss out of hijabis…but if they werr tru hijabans…they wouldnt give a care abt them …now if a women made a case on someone harassing her coz she wore a hijab is just plain silly…why?..because she should b wondering what Allah ji thinks of it…not what some person thinks of it…
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
yeah i know right!
but the thing is......if they wear a hijab and go hang around with guys and smoke and wear "tight fitted" clothes......it makes them as "worse" as a person who doesnt wear a hijab but yet prays and remember their creator at the beginning of everything.......living in western world and going to a mixed school has taught me a lot :)
No ... you misunderstand ... note I said Islam has priority levels. The woman who prays is better than a woman who does not. A woman who wears the khimar as a hijjab but does not pray compared to a woman who prays and doesn't wear hijjab has fallen in the trap of inappropriate priorities.
If there were two choices that a new Muslima has to make it is one to wear hijjab and two to pray. First she should pray, then afterwards she should try to make hijjab. That is the priority. If what you say about yourself is true and I don't doubt it. Then your prayer is preventing you from much fitnah. The hijjab has a lower priority than prayer. However, the prayer will lead to the recognition of hijjab eventually if prayer is performed earnestly.
You can start doing hijjab first by lowering the gaze, that is a type of hijjab. Another type of hijjab is to wear unrevealing clothes, another type of hijjab is to speak sternly and fiercly with men, so they can't find your voice attractive. The khimar is only another form of hijjab, which is the covering of the hairline and over the breasts.
In combination hijjab is an attire and attitude combination so that women won't look at women in jealously and men won't look at them in lust. The man has to lower his gaze too. By doing this he is showing other males that he means no harm and he shows the woman that he respects her.
All of this is besides the point. Without prayer a persons Islam is at risk, but without hijjab it is just a persons reputation.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
Sweet.I.F...
Im not talking about htreats from indivudals...im talking about legilsation...if based on reason and fact they decide that a hijab or veil is not suitable for the workplace then that is thretaening isnt it...Imperial a well known university near me had a temporary ban on wearing a veil for an ID card...i know a girl who wants to do nursing who was asked in her interview whether she would be willing toi remove her hijab...
You say that it doesnt matter what people think its what Allah thinks so say hijab is banned here then what do you do?...In Turkey, France and Tunisia theyhave already had to make that choice...
…who take the piss out of hijabis…but if they werr tru hijabans…they wouldnt give a care abt them 
…now if a women made a case on someone harassing her coz she wore a hijab is just plain silly…why?..because she should b wondering what Allah ji thinks of it…not what some person thinks of it…