Re: Hijab and Veil Issue…An article i wrote a while back…
that is so well said 
and ur right…lower gaze prevents you from NOTICING other men looking at you…speaking sternly and feircely with men other then ur uncles/father is also a type of hijab.
thanks :k:…made sense 
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
Sweet.I.F... Im not talking about htreats from indivudals...im talking about legilsation...if based on reason and fact they decide that a hijab or veil is not suitable for the workplace then that is thretaening isnt it...Imperial a well known university near me had a temporary ban on wearing a veil for an ID card...i know a girl who wants to do nursing who was asked in her interview whether she would be willing toi remove her hijab... You say that it doesnt matter what people think its what Allah thinks so say hijab is banned here then what do you do?...In Turkey, France and Tunisia theyhave already had to make that choice...
woah.......and did she make a complaint about this?
i'm saying.....that when people as individuals say stuff like "terrorist" hijabans should ignore.....its not gna hurt them.....but when its about a job like the girl u are saying was asked if she was willing to remove her hijab then i guess she should complain
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue…An article i wrote a while back…
2 corrections
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue…An article i wrote a while back…
oh ok 
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
it's not about making it optional,....so are you saying that those women who dnt wear a hijab aren't good muslims?
I thin what is meant is that those who wear it, don't see it as an optional item...regardless of other people's choice on the matter.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
Picoico...
Firstly as for the Wests dislike of the veil...for them it is a rational thing in terms of law and order and education to not have a veil...
Here's were I have to interrupt and point out that technically I am one of them. I'm not a migrant; this just highlights my point: why is it okay for my fellow Canadians to run around half naked, get God-knows what pierced, and have it recognized as something Canadian kids "do"....but when it comes to the Hijab...no...I personally can't accept that argument...
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You asked whether Muslims have to give up their Islam in order to integrate and the answer is yes pretty much...or compromise their beliefs...
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If one is stating that everyone has to practice their religion only to the extent that the law permits, that's only stating the obvious. If one is stating that Muslims need to proactively alter their religious practices as a precondition to integration, then that's advocating a racist stance. Period. To suggest that Islam is something foreign that needs to be adapted to a host culture ignores the fact that there are many converts who have ancestry in these nations, or that there are native born Muslims...the argument doesn't wash.
The fact is, these societies change...and that is a tradition they are proud of. The conservatism of cultural preservation does not fit within the paradigm of social change that Western societies saw since the 1920's onward. One can end that...but then, if this is the high value that is allegedly being preserved by mandating Muslims assimilate...the very act of asking for this kind of assimilation goes against the very nature of embracing social change.
Muslims will have to change, no doubt...they're not in rural Afghanistan anymore, for example. But guess what...so will the "hosts"...because those of us born in these nations aren't as pansy as our immigrant brethren are, who are so wound up about fitting in that they are willing to suggest that Muslims start abandoning their faith for the sake of integrating.
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Lord Tebbitt once said in a speech on mulitculturalism that no man can hve two masters...one has to choose one...and for Muslims it is Allah or man made law...Criteria is either do what pleases Allah and avoid what he dislikes or conform to man made law...
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Unless of course Allah has made it clear that when Muslims are in non-Muslim societies, they abide by the laws; Mr. Tebbit seems to have missed the obvious on that. Legalities aside, Muslims should be required to do no more or less than anyone else.
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Your a good Muslim in the West if you base you actions on reason on fact...so like i said the onbe who debates halal meat based on reason and not Quran is integration...
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That point itself doesn't sound reasonable. Integration, by the way, has many facets, the primary ones being economic and legal. Aside from this, Muslims have no obligation to "fit" in...and those of us born here have just as much right demanding non-Muslims adapt to us as they ask us to adapt to them.
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.the woman who debates the veli based on her freedoms is fine...it is when you start to say you veil is an obligation from Allah then that is more problematic as you are valuing your faith over the culture of your host country...
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The minute a Muslim becomes a citizen of that country, and if the country espouses multi-cultural principles...then their faith becomes a part of the cultural fabric of that country. Again, legalities aside, it's all the same. I don't have a host country my friend...I was born here....the fact is, I don't have citizenship in any other nation.
To suggest anything else is, as I said, changing the rules as we're going along. Yes, it can be done...but then, this marks a drastic change in the social contract promised to the progeny of immigrants...namely equality.
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Multi religious societies arent dead its just religion has no place in public life...do your jummah and your fasts etc but once law has a rule you abide by it even if it contradicts your own way of life...
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Society is not multi-religious if it starts passing laws that restrict religious practice for reasons of social engineering, rather than enforcing established legal principles. It also stops being secular, by the way.
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No soiciety is tolerant of values other than its own and the West is no different...to have a harmonious society you can only accept one source of guidance...
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Not at the personal level, and this is a very well established principle of these particular societies.
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So i ask a question...if by some means they outlaw the veil...(lol they might do if more Somalian criminals use it to leave the country)...then what do you do?...Whose your master then?...You can keep it on and please Allah yet find yourself liable for imprisonment...or you could please the West and integrate and therefore anger Allah...
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That's different; I'm talking about extra-legal pressures to alter religious practices (integration is not a legal principle). In this particular case, the only recourse is of course legal...and the third option is to leave.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
"Here's were I have to interrupt and point out that technically I am one of them. I'm not a migrant; this just highlights my point: why is it okay for my fellow Canadians to run around half naked, get God-knows what pierced, and have it recognized as something Canadian kids "do"....but when it comes to the Hijab...no...I personally can't accept that argument..."
Fair enough that is another rational argument that wearing a hijab is no different to a goth wearing makeup or a woman in salwar kameeze...the difference however is that one represents alignment to a faith and it is felt that Islamic or any religious identity is desirable as it contradicts the concept of secularism...in France you cant wear a cross but a man can don some eyeliner...its their way of making you choose your master...
"If one is stating that everyone has to practice their religion only to the extent that the law permits, that's only stating the obvious. If one is stating that Muslims need to proactively alter their religious practices as a precondition to integration, then that's advocating a racist stance. Period. To suggest that Islam is something foreign that needs to be adapted to a host culture ignores the fact that there are many converts who have ancestry in these nations, or that there are native born Muslims...the argument doesn't wash. "
*"The fact is, these societies change...and that is a tradition they are proud of. The conservatism of cultural preservation does not fit within the paradigm of social change that Western societies saw since the 1920's onward. One can end that...but then, if this is the high value that is allegedly being preserved by mandating Muslims assimilate...the very act of asking for this kind of assimilation goes against the very nature of embracing social change. *
Muslims will have to change, no doubt...they're not in rural Afghanistan anymore, for example. But guess what...so will the "hosts"...because those of us born in these nations aren't as pansy as our immigrant brethren are, who are so wound up about fitting in that they are willing to suggest that Muslims start abandoning their faith for the sake of integrating."
It isnt a racist stance to expect people to change their religious practoces if yopu are secular...I gave the example of a Christian being imprisoned for advocating his belief...There is a push in the West towards the ideal type of Muslim...someones whos judgements are based on reason and facts rather than Allah...someone who beliefs in a contradictory law and order rather than what Allah says...Christians face the same problems...When the gay bishop thing was happening thos ewho opposed it where classed as extreme...the west doesnt want to eliminate Islam they just want to secularise it...Be a Muslim but beleieve in our man made laws...
"That point itself doesn't sound reasonable. Integration, by the way, has many facets, the primary ones being economic and legal. Aside from this, Muslims have no obligation to "fit" in...and those of us born here have just as much right demanding non-Muslims adapt to us as they ask us to adapt to them
Im specifically referring to value systems...
Unless of course Allah has made it clear that when Muslims are in non-Muslim societies, they abide by the laws; Mr. Tebbit seems to have missed the obvious on that. Legalities aside, Muslims should be required to do no more or less than anyone else. "
And what when these values contradict your own...Is it the we are in Rome so do as they do argument?...
*"The minute a Muslim becomes a citizen of that country, and if the country espouses multi-cultural principles...then their faith becomes a part of the cultural fabric of that country. Again, legalities aside, it's all the same. I don't have a host country my friend...I was born here....the fact is, I don't have citizenship in any other nation. *
To suggest anything else is, as I said, changing the rules as we're going along. Yes, it can be done...but then, this marks a drastic change in the social contract promised to the progeny of immigrants...namely equality. "
Can you explain how Islam has had any impact on the culture here?...
"Not at the personal level, and this is a very well established principle of these particular societies."
**
Its not just a personal level...its increasingly becoming a legislative level...Muslims are pretty much the new communists...when you see a threat you dispose of it...In any society no-one is acceptant of differing ideological beliefs...it ok to dress or be different but if your source of guidance is different then you will have problems...
"That's different; I'm talking about extra-legal pressures to alter religious practices (integration is not a legal principle). In this particular case, the only recourse is of course legal...and the third option is to leave"
Well the legal option sdoesnt need to work...its not that hard to outlaw something...like i said in my original post all that is required is for a few veil related crimes to occur...we recently had a story of a Somalian fleeing the country using his sisters passport and wearting a veil...in a secular society free from religion i would outlaw the veil...i could easily justify not allowing teachers to wear veils etc...there is legal precedent to not allow the veil to be involved in public life...so if that does happen then maybe leaving is the best option...
You live in a society which hates everything you represent...you might aswell go somewhere else...I dont see stauch feminsts settling in Saudi Arabia or Iran...
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
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...the difference however is that one represents alignment to a faith and it is felt that Islamic or any religious identity is desirable as it contradicts the concept of secularism...
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Again, secular principles do not preclude the dressing of people in accordance to their faith tradition; even France can't impose the ban in general on the public...although that may well change.
I would take issue with the statement that it does in fact contrdict the concept of secularism; on the contrary, one could quite well argue it affirms secularism when you have a girl in a mini-skirt side by side with a girl in a Hijab. They don't have to like each other, they don't have to talk to each other...but a secular state will not discriminate between the two. At least in the traditional interpretation of what is and is not secular.
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It isnt a racist stance to expect people to change their religious practoces if yopu are secular..
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It's not exaclty racist, but it is akin to racist. It isolates a people, and treats them as second class. People will need to accomodate their religious practice to well defined legal precepts; but it's novel to suggest that existing legislation be interpreted to target particular faith groups. This is exactly what we're seeing in Europe, and I don't think this is an act of presevation, but of redefinition of what it means to be secular.
So again, the argument that Muslims need to adopt to host cultures is a non-starter; the culture Muslims are being asked to adopt has hitherto been unkown in Europe, and is emerging exactly because of the Muslim presence. That sounds something very close to racist behavior to me. You can't act like a racist, but then demand people not look at you as one...
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.I gave the example of a Christian being imprisoned for advocating his belief...
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And it doesn't alter my view; this is something new...
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There is a push in the West towards the ideal type of Muslim...someones whos judgements are based on reason and facts rather than Allah...someone who beliefs in a contradictory law and order rather than what Allah
says...
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I don't see it. Your sounds like a nuanced posiiton; just what do you think...I can't tell if you're advocating such a stance or warning against an impending shift in European values.
At it's most intrusive, western ideals on religous persons are those who are pliant and submissive. It's the whole rubric of a personal faith; but a part of that social contract is that at the personal level, the government won't interfere with how one practices their faith...and this includes how they dress themselves.
Thusfar, secularism is based on the precept that no law shall be passed that takes religous matters into consideration. France is decideadly unsecular because it does take religious concerns into the passing of it's laws.
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Christians face the same problems...When the gay bishop thing was happening thos ewho opposed it where classed as extreme...the west doesnt want to eliminate Islam they just want to secularise it...Be a Muslim but beleieve in our man made laws...
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On the contrary, a common mantra is that you can believe what you want, but the laws you follow will be those passed by the state. So in other words, nuts to your value system...the law is the law. This is nothing new.
Further, seculariszation of Islam is the elimination of Islam. It's a different religion altogether then. Not to mention that it smacks of a state sanctioned Islam; again not at all a very secular thing to do. Do you predict the demise of Enlightened secularism in Europe?
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And what when these values contradict your own...Is it the we are in Rome so do as they do argument?...
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No; it's when in Rome, follow the laws or get out of town.
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Can you explain how Islam has had any impact on the culture here?...
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Well...when all of a sudden wearing a Hijab is provoking some to legislate against doing such..no less redefining what it means to be secular; I'd say the impact on the culture here has been great to the extent of ushering in a cultural paradigm shift.
And in any case, why the prerqueisite of cultural impact?
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Its not just a personal level...its increasingly becoming a legislative level...Muslims are pretty much the new communists...when you see a threat you dispose of it...In any society no-one is acceptant of differing ideological beliefs...it ok to dress or be different but if your source of guidance is different then you will have problems...
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Laws in the west are not intended for personal guidence, but social regulation. Again, this is something new and sounds like a pseudo-faith...are you suggesting a cultish secularism is emerging in Europe?
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we recently had a story of a Somalian fleeing the country using his sisters passport and wearting a veil...
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LOL...and how many people have been beat to death with a kitchen knife, cricket bat, or a machete? Even considering that as a justification for banning the veil is absurd to the exterme...are you suggesting Europe has gone retarded to this extent?
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You live in a society which hates everything you represent...you might aswell go somewhere else...I dont see stauch feminsts settling in Saudi Arabia or Iran...
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Is that an observation? Or your own view projected onto society...or the views of those you've interacted with?
What I do see is European feminists belittling Iran and Saudi and demanding punitive action be taken on these states; so I guess this whole cultural an value preservation thing is only good for Europeans.
I live in a paranoid society; but that's about all so far...
But it is interesting...I have contemplated the move seriously as of late. But I promised myself the move will be well thought out and not based on emotion.
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
Some societies such as Saudi Arabia don't have the same issues as Muslims from emerging cultures, such as Pakistan. We have to find ourselves, but they have a mature culture already.
It's almost laughable but still there is slim chance that you are right, would you like to eloborate a bit more on this cultural maturity thing in Saudi
Re: Hijab and Veil Issue...An article i wrote a while back...
*Again, secular principles do not preclude the dressing of people in accordance to their faith tradition; even France can't impose the ban in general on the public...although that may well change.
I would take issue with the statement that it does in fact contrdict the concept of secularism; on the contrary, one could quite well argue it affirms secularism when you have a girl in a mini-skirt side by side with a girl in a Hijab. They don't have to like each other, they don't have to talk to each other...but a secular state will not discriminate between the two. At least in the traditional interpretation of what is and is not secular.*
Secularism removes religion from public life...so secularism in its essence shouldnt have a hijabi with a short skirted girl...cos one is representing religion and the other isnt...one is acting based on secular values...the other based on religious values...its what it represents not the cloth itself...how many non muslims you see in a veil?...Same with a nuns outfit...
*It's not exaclty racist, but it is akin to racist. It isolates a people, and treats them as second class. People will need to accomodate their religious practice to well defined legal precepts; but it's novel to suggest that existing legislation be interpreted to target particular faith groups. This is exactly what we're seeing in Europe, and I don't think this is an act of presevation, but of redefinition of what it means to be secular.
So again, the argument that Muslims need to adopt to host cultures is a non-starter; the culture Muslims are being asked to adopt has hitherto been unkown in Europe, and is emerging exactly because of the Muslim presence. That sounds something very close to racist behavior to me. You can't act like a racist, but then demand people not look at you as one...*
All it is is believing your idelogy to be correct and implementing it...if i wasnt Muslim id have an issue with Muslims becuase i would think their culture and source of guidance is contradictory to my own...Muslims have a complete way of living which is governed by God whom they see as superior to man...hence if i was a non Muslim i would seek to mould that source of guidance from Allah to reason and fact...so build Muslims with secular values...
*I don't see it. Your sounds like a nuanced posiiton; just what do you think...I can't tell if you're advocating such a stance or warning against an impending shift in European values.
At it's most intrusive, western ideals on religous persons are those who are pliant and submissive. It's the whole rubric of a personal faith; but a part of that social contract is that at the personal level, the government won't interfere with how one practices their faith...and this includes how they dress themselves.
Thusfar, secularism is based on the precept that no law shall be passed that takes religous matters into consideration. France is decideadly unsecular because it does take religious concerns into the passing of it's laws. *
Are you based in the UK?...cs over here integration of Muslims is always a topic of discussion whether it is veils, ghettos, muslims schools etc...Muslims are seen as the hardest to integrate as their culture is completely contradictory to the values of the state...secularism from my understanding involves removing religion from public life so being anti religion is the nature of being secular...
*On the contrary, a common mantra is that you can believe what you want, but the laws you follow will be those passed by the state. So in other words, nuts to your value system...the law is the law. This is nothing new.
Further, seculariszation of Islam is the elimination of Islam. It's a different religion altogether then. Not to mention that it smacks of a state sanctioned Islam; again not at all a very secular thing to do. Do you predict the demise of Enlightened secularism in Europe?*
So you agree that the law has no recognition for religion...and you agree that secularising Islam is not actually Islam...so when you have the MCB and Zaki Badawi giving their enlightended views about how Islam and democracy co-exist and how Muslims dont believe in Jihad etc then you see why it is a topic of concern...Islamic reform has been a big agenda since 9/11...Jack Straw has spoken about a European Islam which accepts individual freedoms, ;iberty etc...now that isnt Islam at all but that is what they want it to be...and that is what they will tell you it is...
No; it's when in Rome, follow the laws or get out of town.
Thats probably the best thing to do...
*Well...when all of a sudden wearing a Hijab is provoking some to legislate against doing such..no less redefining what it means to be secular; I'd say the impact on the culture here has been great to the extent of ushering in a cultural paradigm shift.
And in any case, why the prerqueisite of cultural impact? *
No prerequisite...just wanted to be clear in that Islam is only viewed negatively which we agree on...
*Laws in the west are not intended for personal guidence, but social regulation. Again, this is something new and sounds like a pseudo-faith...are you suggesting a cultish secularism is emerging in Europe? *
Seems so...
LOL...and how many people have been beat to death with a kitchen knife, cricket bat, or a machete? Even considering that as a justification for banning the veil is absurd to the exterme...are you suggesting Europe has gone retarded to this extent?
Im suggesting that it is an important topic of discussion...any excuse to eliminate something and it can be done...Its not a hard push...Just like you cant wear hats to work or hoodies in certain places they may ask you to remove your veil...The rational argument is that it makes one difficult to identify...so even if your relgion says something we still need to be able to identify you...
*Is that an observation? Or your own view projected onto society...or the views of those you've interacted with?
What I do see is European feminists belittling Iran and Saudi and demanding punitive action be taken on these states; so I guess this whole cultural an value preservation thing is only good for Europeans.
I live in a paranoid society; but that's about all so far...
But it is interesting...I have contemplated the move seriously as of late. But I promised myself the move will be well thought out and not based on emotion.*
My own views and the views of some of whom iv interacted with...obviously not everyone agrees...some infact feel integration is a good thing and Islam needs to move forward...i go to an upper class uni where everyone thinks the west is progressive but those who want to cling onto their Islamic identity feel the pressure of integration whether it is through legislation, peer groups or media...
European feminists can say what they like...if you are proud of your own culture...it is natural to look down at other cultures and feel you are superior...i do the same...i believe Islam to be the best system for mankind and superior to Western man made law...so i dont blame them...
Sometimes when people moan about this country...i suggest go somewhere else...they dont have to accomodate you...you need to accomodate them...its not a Muslim country...not that i think there are any countries out there tioday which are but still there are those more conjusive to live in as a Muslim than say the UK or especially France...
If a woman didnt want to wear a headscarf in Iran...id advise them to come to the UK which is what most of Reza Shahs fans did...go somewhere where they endorse your values...or atleast somewhere where your more at ease and where your values are less under threat...
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