Hezbollah and its popularity

[teaser]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@Ohioguy

How many Pakistani Jarwans would the Indians have to capture before Pakistan got pi$$ed off enough to attack?

I think the Israelis just had enough. Hezbullah had kidnapped Israelis before and held them for a prisoner exchange. Israel bought into this once, but internally they were worried that doing this once would be an invitation to do it again. Hizbullah had been launching rockets across the border for years. That is why the Israelis would do a high speed pass over the border. No bombs were dropped, just a warning. Apparently these activities were percieved as weakness not strength. The Israelis had internally drawn a line in the sand, and the most recent abduction was simply the straw that broke the camels back. This is not just about 2 soldiers, this is about 6 years of border disputes.

The Israelis do not have border skirmishes with Jordan or Egypt, or even Syria with a buffer zone. But Pakistan would tolerate a lot less border harrassment from India than Israel has before doing something about it. If the Hindoos were sneaking across the LOC and kidnapping your Jarwans, and launching rockets across the border at your towns, Pakistan would be pi$$ed off too. So tell me, how many Pakistani soldiers can be kidnapped before you do something about it?

Captain sahib I’ve edited my post. Sorry.

[Captain1]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

teaser, please refrain from personal attacks.

[Ajmal_farooqi]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@Man with a Plan

Ohioguy, let me buy your argument again, “They wanted this war” why give them war than? It is only going to strengthen their existence. Expose them in International arena and they will die like fish out of water. Now the victim card, charity and the role of resistance is there. Israel and United States politically just played into their cards.

We are supposed to be smart; we are supposed to be resourceful. Why are we acting like some freaks that are going to bomb everyone who disagrees with them? Look at how China and America got together diplomatically was there a war. No, trade and diplomatic relations, U.S and Israel can do the same with Middle East and Muslim countries. How are they going to win hearts and minds by bombing the crap out of Lebanon, Iraq and potentially Iran and Syria? We are inviting militia like Hamas and Hezbollah to take over this place and we are supposed to be smart. Israel and United States have lot of damage control to take care of; they are on back foot when it comes to Middle East. It is not about restraint or control all the time rather being politically bright and looking at the whole picture. Israel needs United Nations on their side just like United States, the only support they have is in front of camera. Forget Muslims, world does not believe in United State's vision for Middle East. That is the main problem.

Excellent point again. Brother, your postings are really worth reading, I am gaining alot of knowledge.

Thanks!:)

[Ohioguy]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@Captain1

Pakistan India conflict is very different in nature. On particular border area there was time when there was contiguous bombing almost on each day for a sustained period of time but it didn't convert into war. Then there was Kargil incident when both of them were on verge of a war but still averted. You can't use that example to convince us really.

BTW, who kidnapped who first is still a confusion for many, you are not alone.

No, Territorial integrity is the right of every sovereign nation. That includes Israel and Pakistan. When the Indians shelled across the border, did you shell back, or did you sit there with your thumbs up your butt asking the US if it was OK to shoot back? The only reason that all out war was averted is that both militaries were evenly matched and the calculus of war concluded that neither side could expect a clear victory.

But most of all, there were no rockets hitting Islamabad. My point here is that Pakistanis are so knee-jerk in their anti-Israel outbursts that they do not equate Israels border problems with their own. If every time the Bolochi rebels acted up, India started a border clash in sympathy, you would be pi$$ed off too! India could claim that they are simply supporting the legitimate Bolochistan resistance. Anyone can concoct a story where they claim to be resistance. But if India caused that type of problem, it would have been for their own purposes, not the Baluchis.

And you still have avoided my direct question. How many Pakistani soldiers can be freely kidnapped before Pakistan reacts? When is the kidnapping of* your* soldiers simply a nuisance, and when is it a cause for war? Please someone answer this question.

[Ajmal_farooqi]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Whats your problem Ohio Guy?

You lost the case my friend.

Accept it!!!

[Ma_Mooli]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@Ohioguy

Good on Hezbullah. They are doing precisely what a legitimate government should do. And they obviously have a lot of money. To buy Loyalty. So that when their military adventures backfire and destroy the country people will be loyal as they gaze upon the ruins of their country.

Brilliant.

Perhaps next time the Legitimate Goverenment of all the people will be given the money, instead of an unelected heavily armed militia with a leader who has violent plans for it's neighbors. Perhaps the next time people will realize that when they get bought, eventually they will have to pay.

hahaha. thou are one bitter man OG. The defensiveness gets more ridiculous by the day. unbelievable.

[Captain1]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@Ohioguy

And you still have avoided my direct question. How many Pakistani soldiers can be freely kidnapped before Pakistan reacts? When is the kidnapping of* your* soldiers simply a nuisance, and when is it a cause for war? Please someone answer this question.

Again, you cannot compare apples vs oranges. Israel still occupies some land of Lebanon, still holds prisoners from previous conflict, still kidnaps on-border Lebanese whereas there is no such issue in Pakistan vs India conflict.

[Ohioguy]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

So, again no answer.

Pity, for seeing the conflict from Israels point of view might be helpful.

And, Kashmir is not about land? Huh? It is all about land.

Well, let me rephrase my hypothetical. If Pakistan kidnapped Chinese soldiers, and regularly rocketed Chinese towns, would you expect China not to react? Would you expect the Chinese to nicely take this for 6 years?

Bull crap. The Chinese would come pouring over the border, kick your a$$es, and demand their soldiers return. Any country would behave like Israel if provoked. Even your country.

[Captain1]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Ohioguy: I understand what you are trying to ask, but it will be really bad error to ignore the actions of Israel.

[abbasali1985]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@Ohioguy

If Pakistan kidnapped Chinese soldiers, and regularly rocketed Chinese towns, would you expect China not to react? Would you expect the Chinese to nicely take this for 6 years?

If China illegally occupied parts of Pakistan-Kashmir and regularly violated Pakistani airspace, and if China regularly killed innocent shepherds and doctors and bombed innocent children and women in the West Bank... if China illegally created 'settlements' in Pakistan around water bodies to rob the Pakistani economy and livelihood. If China took these illegal settlements and created a wall around it... if China refused to tell Pakistan about landmines on Pakistani soil...

Would pakistan not 'regularly' fire rockets at chinese towns? Even so, Hezbollah does not REGULARLY fire rockets at Israel. Not until this conflict started, at least. Up until now, Israel has been killing and kidnapping 1000's of Palestinians and Lebanese civilians.

CIVILIANS. that's the keyword. They have been kidnapping doctors, construction workers, professors, shepherds, farmers, etc... on what basis?

[Ohioguy]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@abbasali1985

Even so, Hezbollah does not REGULARLY fire rockets at Israel. Not until this conflict started, at least.

Bull Crap. Did you read What I posted? That was from 2002, and the Israelis were being rocketed then but chose not to go into Lebanon to demonstrate "restraint". How many rockets into Pakistani towns and villages are *acceptable? How many should just be tollerated as a nuisance?

*This does not happen on the border with Syria, Jordan or Egypt. There is peace there. Jordan and Egypt are examples that clearly show that a durable peace is available with the Israelis. Hizbullah continued the antagonism and built fortifications for the day when they would go too far and Israel would cross the border to silence them. That was their plan. They did not know when the Israelis would snap, but they wanted a war. Well, they got a war.

[am_islamabad]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Go Gezbollah Go

[Ajmal_farooqi]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@Captain1

Ohioguy: I understand what you are trying to ask, but it will be really bad error to ignore the actions of Israel.

Roger that Captain!

[abbasali1985]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@Ohioguy

That was their plan. They did not know when the Israelis would snap, but they wanted a war. Well, they got a war.

I can't believe you think it was Hezbollah's "plan" to wage a "war." That is absolutely ridiculous. Israel occupies the She'ba farms. How many times do I have to say that? Does Hezbollah occupy any part of Israel?

See, the US media keeps saying "Israel withdrew from Lebanon in the year 2000"... but they didn't fully withdraw their troops. Furthermore, they have repeatedly violated Lebanese airspace. What does that mean?

For the benefit of your argument, let's just assume that you are correct and that Hezbollah have been 'repeatedly' firing rockets into Israel (as you claim), with Israel practising 'restraint' (as you claim)... how then, can you explain Israels illegal occupation of the She'ba farms? How can you explain Israel's illegal settlements in the West Bank and Gaza (strategically situated near water to deny any water access to Palestinians). How can you explain Israel's demolition of Palestinian homes in West Bank and Gaza on the merit that they do not have legitimate 'building permits'. How can you explain the massacre in Qana two weeks ago? When Israel claimed that there were Hezbollah rockets in the 'basement', when in reality there were two families hiding for their lives in the basement.

What I'm trying to get at is simple; Israel has illegally occupied land in both Palestine and Lebanon. They have repeatedly violated airspace and human rights violations in both countries. No one in their correct state-of-mind can deny the illegality and immorality of their actions.

I find it shameful that we have people on a Pakistani forum trying to back them up.

[Ohioguy]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@abbasali1985

For the benefit of your argument, let’s just assume that you are correct and that Hezbollah have been ‘repeatedly’ firing rockets into Israel (as you claim), with Israel practising ‘restraint’ (as you claim)… how then, can you explain Israels illegal occupation of the She’ba farms? How can you explain Israel’s illegal settlements in the West Bank and Gaza (strategically situated near water to deny any water access to Palestinians).

What I’m trying to get at is simple; Israel has illegally occupied land in both Palestine and Lebanon. They have repeatedly violated airspace and human rights violations in both countries. No one in their correct state-of-mind can deny the illegality and immorality of their actions.

I find it shameful that we have people on a Pakistani forum trying to back them up.

The Sinai was won in a similar fashion in a war against Israel. The settlements of the Sinai were dismantled and returned to Egypt. There has been peace since that agreement. She’ba Farms is a rediculously small spit of land. It has always been held by Israel as a reward for peace. There are no more settlements in Gaza, they were abandonned unilatererally by Isreal a year ago. Plans were underway to give back a great portion of the West Bank.

Israel does not violate the airspace of Jordan and Egypt, with whom they have honorable peace. Certainly any peace treaty with Lebanon will honor Lebanons’ sovereignty as well.

Peace has been available to the people of Lebanon for years. Hizbullah chose to fight.

They wanted this fight to gain respect and power. Welcome to the Middle East.

What does Nasrallah tell the people of Lebanon?

Following are excerpts from an address given by Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah, which aired on Al-Manar TV on July 16, 2006.
Hassan Nasrallah: I want to say a few words to the good, steadfast, honorable, and pure people, whom we have heard in recent days on the media. We have heard their perseverance, their support, and their love.
You are truly a great people. I am not just saying this out of pride, arrogance, or flattery. This is a people of historic [greatness], on whom hopes are pinned to save Lebanon and the nation - the entire nation - from its state of degradation and humiliation, and to instill new hope in the nation.
I tell you again that with your support, your embrace, with your love, your perseverance, and your steadfastness, we will be victorious. The buildings and places that are being destroyed - we will cooperate with the Lebanese state…
But in this matter, I say to you: Do not worry about what the Israeli war machine can destroy. All we wish is that the wounded be healed, and that the living have a long and healthy life. As for what is being destroyed - with the help of Allah, and by cooperation with the Lebanese state… We too, as an interested party, are determined to be serious in rebuilding what is being destroyed.
I tell you, without going into details now, that we have friends who are also serious in this, and who have a very great ability to help us with pure, clean, and honorable money, and without any political conditions.
There is nothing to worry about regarding the rebuilding of our country. What is important is that we persevere now and emerge victorious from this battle.

MEMRI TV

Love the guy, don’t worry about the rubble, Jihad ON!

Let’s face it, he miscalculated and led the Lebanese people into a fight that he wanted. Only he thought that the Israelis would settle for shooting spit wads across the border. He should be shot for cavelierly putting his country at risk for his own gain.

[mawarid]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Never condemn the aggressor or its wanton destruction, never mind the massacre of innocent civilians. Always defend them by blaming the victims. Some people have such shallow vision and thinking. Pity.

[Ohioguy]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Please name one thing that Hizbullah has done to pursue peace. One discussion, one conference, one ovature?

Victims my hairy white Gora butt.

[Reza_Pahlavi]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@mawarid

Never condemn the aggressor or its wanton destruction, never mind the massacre of innocent civilians. Always defend them by blaming the victims. Some people have such shallow vision and thinking. Pity.

Israel massacred over a dozen funeral goers yesterday, but you will not see condemnation from pro-Israeli’s, just excuses and justifications. They have lost their arguments as badly as Israel has lost this war against Hezbollah.

http://www.wral.com/apworldnews/9647521/detail.html

[abbasali1985]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@Ohioguy

She'ba Farms is a rediculously small spit of land.

That is the most pathetic excuse for their occupation. "Small spit" of land? Using your same logic, would it be justified if "China" occupied a small spit of land in "Pakistan" ?

@Ohioguy

There are no more settlements in Gaza, they were abandonned unilatererally by Isreal a year ago. Plans were underway to give back a great portion of the West Bank.

Oh, so these illegal settlements that basically drenched Gaza's economy were abandonned unilaterally. What an angelic deed on behalf of Israel. You haven't been to Palestine to see what Israel has done to it, so please don't try to defend their "settlements". To give you an idea of how their settelements work, they are basically located on hilltops (strategically for military purposes). They come into sections of Palestine, occupy hilltops, and steal the water supply. The Palestinians barely have any water to survive their daily tasks, while these settlements on hilltops have lush green lawns and swimming pools.

@Ohioguy

Israel does not violate the airspace of Jordan and Egypt, with whom they have honorable peace.

Yes, spot on. Jordan and Egypt have extremley honorable government powers. They are truly a model of "independent" democracies in the middle-east, aren't they? I mean, they don't seem to be influenced by any certain powers in any way. They are just honorable governments with independent decisions.

@Ohioguy

Hizbullah chose to fight.

Using your flawed argument which constantly committs fallacies, let's assume that Hezbollah did infact 'choose to fight'... what gives Israel the right to kill over 500 civilians? What gives Israel the right to destroy Milk Factories, Gas Stations, the Industrial and Business Sector of the country? I thought your buddy Ehud Olmert wanted to 'destroy hezbollah' and not the people or the economy? And please don't give me some propogandaist-influenced sorry ass excuse of "Hezbollah hide as civilians which makes it hard for Israel to track them." This BS has been repeatedly aired only on Israeli-funded American networks.

@Ohioguy

He should be shot for cavelierly putting his country at risk for his own gain.

Yes. This is definetley for his own gain. Once again, poor ohioguy has been manipulated by the good ol' friends at CNN. Using your same logic, explain the following:

Ehud Olmert instigated a disproportiante strike against all of Lebanon, to which Hezbollah answered by firing over 100 rockets/day into Northern Israel. Olmert put the well being of his people at risk as well. Why don't you and your Zionist-loving buddies acknowledge this as a reason for 'being shot'...?

[mawarid]

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

@Ohioguy

Victims my hairy white Gora butt.

Thats what was expected instead of condemnation you are now even denying that any innocent people were butchered by Israelis. Rael shame. I suppose all the 37 kids killed at Qana were actively shooting rockets into Israel. Of course they were terrorists and not victims of barabric actions of IDF terrorists.