Hezbollah and its popularity

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

There is one thing they are popular and there is another when they have members and the political support. You cannot possibly compare Bin Laden support to Hezbollah; it is different in many ways. Bin laden support mainly based on anger and frustration while Hezbollah has won hearts and minds of the people. They are 40% of Lebanon, not some foreign militia as you are making them out to be.

As you said, Hezbollah formed to resist Israel occupation. Does that tell you why and how this organization got to where they are? They are by-product of Israel violent behavior and Arab’s inability to stand up for their people. They are doing the job of Lebanese government. People have every right to protect and resist a foreign occupation.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

*Israel responded to an unprovoked attack by Hizbullah, right? Wrong *

The assault on Lebanon was premeditated - the soldiers' capture simply provided the excuse. It was also unnecessary

Whatever we think of Israel's assault on Lebanon, all of us seem to agree about one fact: that it was a response, however disproportionate, to an unprovoked attack by Hizbullah. I repeated this "fact" in my last column, when I wrote that "Hizbullah fired the first shots". This being so, the Israeli government's supporters ask peaceniks like me, what would you have done? It's an important question. But its premise, I have now discovered, is flawed. Since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, there have been hundreds of violations of the "blue line" between the two countries. The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line "on an almost daily basis" between 2001 and 2003, and "persistently" until 2006. These incursions "caused great concern to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas". On some occasions, Hizbullah tried to shoot them down with anti-aircraft guns.

In October 2000, the Israel Defence Forces shot at unarmed Palestinian demonstrators on the border, killing three and wounding 20. In response, Hizbullah crossed the line and kidnapped three Israeli soldiers. On several occasions, Hizbullah fired missiles and mortar rounds at IDF positions, and the IDF responded with heavy artillery and sometimes aerial bombardment. Incidents like this killed three Israelis and three Lebanese in 2003; one Israeli soldier and two Hizbullah fighters in 2005; and two Lebanese people and three Israeli soldiers in February 2006. Rockets were fired from Lebanon into Israel several times in 2004, 2005 and 2006, on some occasions by Hizbullah. But, the UN records, "none of the incidents resulted in a military escalation". On May 26 this year, two officials of Islamic Jihad - Nidal and Mahmoud Majzoub - were killed by a car bomb in the Lebanese city of Sidon. This was widely assumed in Lebanon and Israel to be the work of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency. In June, a man named Mahmoud Rafeh confessed to the killings and admitted that he had been working for Mossad since 1994. Militants in southern Lebanon responded, on the day of the bombing, by launching eight rockets into Israel. One soldier was lightly wounded. There was a major bust-up on the border, during which one member of Hizbullah was killed and several wounded, and one Israeli soldier wounded. But while the border region "remained tense and volatile", Unifil says it was "generally quiet" until July 12. There has been a heated debate on the internet about whether the two Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hizbullah that day were captured in Israel or in Lebanon, but it now seems pretty clear that they were seized in Israel. This is what the UN says, and even Hizbullah seems to have forgotten that they were supposed to have been found sneaking around the outskirts of the Lebanese village of Aita al-Shaab. Now it simply states that "the Islamic resistance captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine". Three other Israeli soldiers were killed by the militants. There is also some dispute about when, on July 12, Hizbullah first fired its rockets; but Unifil makes it clear that the firing took place at the same time as the raid - 9am. Its purpose seems to have been to create a diversion. No one was hit.

But there is no serious debate about why the two soldiers were captured: Hizbullah was seeking to exchange them for the 15 prisoners of war taken by the Israelis during the occupation of Lebanon and (in breach of article 118 of the third Geneva convention) never released. It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings. But the Israeli government refused to negotiate. Instead - well, we all know what happened instead. Almost 1,000 Lebanese and 33 Israeli civilians have been killed so far, and a million Lebanese displaced from their homes. On July 12, in other words, Hizbullah fired the first shots. But that act of aggression was simply one instance in a long sequence of small incursions and attacks over the past six years by both sides. So why was the Israeli response so different from all that preceded it? The answer is that it was not a reaction to the events of that day. The assault had been planned for months.

The San Francisco Chronicle reports that "more than a year ago, a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to US and other diplomats, journalists and thinktanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail". The attack, he said, would last for three weeks. It would begin with bombing and culminate in a ground invasion. Gerald Steinberg, professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University, told the paper that "of all of Israel's wars since 1948, this was the one for which Israel was most prepared ... By 2004, the military campaign scheduled to last about three weeks that we're seeing now had already been blocked out and, in the last year or two, it's been simulated and rehearsed across the board". A "senior Israeli official" told the Washington Post that the raid by Hizbullah provided Israel with a "unique moment" for wiping out the organisation. The New Statesman's editor, John Kampfner, says he was told by more than one official source that the US government knew in advance of Israel's intention to take military action in Lebanon. The Bush administration told the British government. Israel's assault, then, was premeditated: it was simply waiting for an appropriate excuse. It was also unnecessary. It is true that Hizbullah had been building up munitions close to the border, as its current rocket attacks show. But so had Israel. Just as Israel could assert that it was seeking to deter incursions by Hizbullah, Hizbullah could claim - also with justification - that it was trying to deter incursions by Israel. The Lebanese army is certainly incapable of doing so. Yes, Hizbullah should have been pulled back from the Israeli border by the Lebanese government and disarmed. Yes, the raid and the rocket attack on July 12 were unjustified, stupid and provocative, like just about everything that has taken place around the border for the past six years. But the suggestion that Hizbullah could launch an invasion of Israel or that it constitutes an existential threat to the state is preposterous. Since the occupation ended, all its acts of war have been minor ones, and nearly all of them reactive. So it is not hard to answer the question of what we would have done. First, stop recruiting enemies, by withdrawing from the occupied territories in Palestine and Syria. Second, stop provoking the armed groups in Lebanon with violations of the blue line - in particular the persistent flights across the border. Third, release the prisoners of war who remain unlawfully incarcerated in Israel. Fourth, continue to defend the border, while maintaining the diplomatic pressure on Lebanon to disarm Hizbullah (as anyone can see, this would be much more feasible if the occupations were to end). Here then is my challenge to the supporters of the Israeli government: do you dare to contend that this programme would have caused more death and destruction than the current adventure has done?

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Absolutely the Good Works are what the Lebanese people deserve. It is what is expected from a legitimate government.

But the Lebanese Governement has never stood a chance. If it was not the PLO dominating their politics, it was Syria who had virtually dominated the country by parking their military all over the landscape. Then they killed a reform minded former Prime Minister. Only recently has the Lebanese economy started to boom, with tourism, rebuilding, and peace and tollerance. The Central Government had been doing a fine job of providing l*ong term promise* for people in the form of jobs and prosperity.

Hezbullah tricked the people. They bought them. They lulled them into a sense of security with nurturing domestic policies, and violent foreign policies. At some point people who print these stories need to raise their heads out of the bunkers and ask, "So how did it turn out?". If the Lebanese people had a better life and Hizbullah is responsible for that, then they deserve the credit. If people are lying in the rubble of a ruined country and that was the result of Hizbullah shooting rockets for years over a border, and kidnapping neighboring soldiers, then they need to stand responsible for that also.

Given the degree of readiness of Hizbullah, tunnels, rockets, training, weapons, communication, bunkers, nobody can tell me that Hibullah did not want this. They were itching for a war, baiting Israel to do it. It was part of a plan. They had no idea when Israel would get fed up enough to do it, but Hizbullahs plan was to provoke a conflict. They knew lots of Lebanese would be killed, and they wanted it anyway.

Hezbullah wanted to be an iron fist in a velvet glove. The Lebanese people accepted the kindness, but they knew that Hizbullah was not pursueing peace. There was no other alternative but Hizbullah. So they took the kindness and held their breath. And how did Hizbullah come by all the money? Iran knew their violent plan also. Since it did not involve Iranian blood, they sent the blood money to their Best Toy, the Lebanese people who would suffer the brunt of the violence. Everybody knew. This was the plan all along.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Excellent reply!

You truly are the "Man with a plan"

Masha-Allah, keep up the good work! (buhut khoob khail rahay hain bhai aap) :)

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

You are the by-product of a propoganda machine better known as the Israeli-funded AmeriKKKan media.

Try to think back before the 20 odd days of this war. Israel was not OUT of Lebanon for "several years" as your beloved CNN, CBS, and NBC claim. Israel has been occupying the She'ba Farms for quite some time now. Also, if you look back at BEFORE the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers, Israel violated Lebanese airspace on almost a DAILY basis. Moreover, Israel kidnapped/captured Doctors, Sheperds, Politicians, etc from Palestine and Lebanon on numerous occasions (almost every month) in the last 5 years.

Israel has over 1000 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners that have not received a fair trial or are occupying their prisons on baseless charges. THESE ARE FACTS.

Hezbollah is a resistance group. Why does it bother some of us that they are funded and armed by Iran? Doesn't it bother you that the U.S. has armed the IDF with nuclear capable weapons? Please stop being infiltrated by your pathetic media which is funded by Israel's Public Relations sector (at over $3 billion per annum).

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

That is absolutley ridiculous. It is a clear indication of another victim of the Propoganda Machine that you are probably glued to 24-7. The Most Trusted Name in News has really blurred your vision hasn't it?

Hezbollah was not 'itching' for a war. Hezbollah is a bloody RESISTANCE group. Israel has been working really hard at PROVOKINg a war with Hezbollah. Why? Because Hezbollah is the single-largest threat to them. Israel has been 'itching' to jump at an opportunity to 'destroy' hezbollah. Just a few days before the confrontation began, Israel violated Syrian airspace and flew over Damascus. I bet your beloved CNN didn't report that.

Israel is an illegal state. They have illegally occupied the West Bank and Gaza strip. They have illegally occupied the She'ba Farms. They cross over their borders all the time (usually through air). Get your facts straight buddy.

Hezbollah was obviously 'well prepared' for the war because they knew Israel was going to attack sooner or later.

Look into the formation of Israel. Their history states that they originally wanted to have secure land with "natural borders" to the north. I.E. Water body. Tell me why Ehud Olmert has advised his IDF to move 30km's in to Lebanon to the nearest river? What does this move have to do with 'eliminating' hezbollah?

Now tell me which move seems pre-planned.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Ohioguy, this is my point. Hezbollah is doing other people job. I think you have valid argument with Syria occupying and ok for the sake of argument let me buy that Hezbollah manipulated this (which I do not believe) but we cannot just sit, bomb and expect this to go away. They have politically gained support of their people and it took them 20 years to do it. You cannot bomb and pin the responsibility on Hezbollah and look for their demise. Hezbollah, before this conflict was nothing but a local militia or charity organization. They cannot survive international pressure; they cannot stand if internationally they told to disarm. They will, the problem is Israel, United States and Lebanese government inaccuracies and wrong policies only fueled and strengthen Hezbollah’s emergences and existence. Ater this escalation they are only going to expand.

If you want to destroy Hezbollah, help the Lebanese, control Israel. President Bush Sr. was a great leader and his policies in the Middle East were excellent. He was the one who ended Saddam and could have done the same with Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah. He always went with International pressure rather military might, which this Bush does not understand. He believes in special interests and fanatics, the same people we want to avoid taking control of Muslim countries. It is wrong policies of United States, Israel and Lebanon government that have led to what we know now as Hezbollah than their charitable contribution because there are other charities too that help people, we do not see them taking 40% of a parliament.

It is more of our fault than Hezbollah's manipulation or political aptitude.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Neither Hezbollah, nor the Lebanese Government recognise Israel as being out of Lebanon, since Syria ceded the Shebaa Farms back to Lebanon but Israel continues to occupy it.

Hezbollah has always stated that it will continue to fight Israel until it leaves the Shebaa Farms; the Lebanese Government too is insisting that Israel levaes the Shebaa Farms before it presses for Hezbollah disarmament.

Additionally, Israel continues to hold prisoners from the guerilla war in South Lebanon, in violation of the third Geneva Convention. Its failure to release them after the South Lebanon occupation ended was a great provocation.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

The Zionists are begging for a ceasefire now.....they are saying that unless there is a ceasefire they will extend their bombing, further north. That seems like an act of desperation to me. Agree to a ceasefire otherwise we will hurt you even more. The best way to deal with bullies is not to give in to them. They know they can not carry on indefinetly.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Geo Hizbollah kay jawanoo.

Takbeer!
Allah-o-akbar!

Are there any Pakistanis joining Hizbollah freedom fighters?

If Egyptians and Indonesians are going, why are there no Pakistanis going?

What happened to our ghairat (honor)?

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Man, I posted this before, but I will post it again. This is a quote from 2002. The US sat on the now nearly dead Ariel Sharon, and told him to not respond to Hezbullahs cross border adventures. He issued the following warning:

Since March 28, 2002, the first day of Operation Defensive Shield—Israel’s attempt to dismantle the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure—Lebanese Hizballah fighters have attacked northern Israeli settlements and military outposts on an almost daily basis. These unprovoked attacks have included the use of antitank missiles, mortars, katyusha rockets, and antiaircraft weapons directed at Israeli military and civilian aircraft. Among the towns attacked have been Shlomi, Kiryat Shmona, Moshav Beit Hillel, and the Allawite village Ghajar, where Hizballah fire wounded five residents, including three children. In an April 7 Hizballah attack on a military outpost in the western sector (a significant distance from the Shebaa Farms area), seven Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers—five of them women—were wounded. Despite these provocations, Israel has indicated that it does not wish to open a second front against Hizballah, the Lebanese army, or Syria. Yet, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon recently stated, “**We are demonstrating restraint and are not interested in an escalation in the violence, but we cannot hold back for much longer,” indicating that Israel’s patience is about to run out and that harsh military response is imminent.

**That was 2002, when the US “controlled” Israel and told them to avoid conflict with Lebanon. In retrospect Hizbullah in 2002 would have given up a much smaller fight. By holding back Sharon in 2002 more people are dying today.

After 2000 peace between Israel and Lebanon was just a blink away. Israel does not care about Shebba farms any more than they cared about the settlements they abandoned in the Sinai or Gaza. That land is a token in the typical Middle East land for peace equation. If Hizbullah used a 10km square patch of land as an excuse for “resistance”, that is even more pathetic. Prisoners could have been returned in a blink in exchange for peace on Israels Northern border. Peace is available as witnessed by Egypt and Jordan, which have been durable and honorable agreements.

Perhaps this war will lead to a peace. Probably not. More than likely Hizbullah will become emboldened, and we will fight this war again in five years.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Why are you still here? :hoonh:

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, there have been hundreds of violations of the "blue line" between the two countries. The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line "on an almost daily basis" between 2001 and 2003, and "persistently" until 2006. These incursions "caused great concern to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas". On some occasions, Hizbullah tried to shoot them down with anti-aircraft guns.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

thanks for that-- it helps solidify what i was tryign to say. lol. :D

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Hezbollah has 14 elected members in the Lebanese parliament. It's close allies (Amal etc) have another 21 seats. Nobody can deny the electoral popularity of Hezbollah, based on it's huge philanthropic, political and military contributions to the Lebanese nation.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Captain, you completely shook me my freind. I really dont have words to answer your question.

I guess I am out of words here!!!

I am pretty sure, everybody else is pondering too. What are we waiting for? Are we waiting for the fire to come to our own backyard (Pakistan)?

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

In case seem people want to overlook this reality.

Hezbollah has emerged as the largest relief provider in war-torn Lebanon. Its efforts dwarf those of the government and international aid agencies, and they're cementing its role as Lebanon's leading social-welfare organization.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Ohioguy, let me buy your argument again, “They wanted this war” why give them war than? It is only going to strengthen their existence. Expose them in International arena and they will die like fish out of water. Now the victim card, charity and the role of resistance is there. Israel and United States politically just played into their cards.

We are supposed to be smart; we are supposed to be resourceful. Why are we acting like some freaks that are going to bomb everyone who disagrees with them? Look at how China and America got together diplomatically was there a war. No, trade and diplomatic relations, U.S and Israel can do the same with Middle East and Muslim countries. How are they going to win hearts and minds by bombing the crap out of Lebanon, Iraq and potentially Iran and Syria? We are inviting militia like Hamas and Hezbollah to take over this place and we are supposed to be smart. Israel and United States have lot of damage control to take care of; they are on back foot when it comes to Middle East. It is not about restraint or control all the time rather being politically bright and looking at the whole picture. Israel needs United Nations on their side just like United States, the only support they have is in front of camera. Forget Muslims, world does not believe in United State's vision for Middle East. That is the main problem.

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

How many Pakistani Jarwans would the Indians have to capture before Pakistan got pi$$ed off enough to attack?

I think the Israelis just had enough. Hezbullah had kidnapped Israelis before and held them for a prisoner exchange. Israel bought into this once, but internally they were worried that doing this once would be an invitation to do it again. Hizbullah had been launching rockets across the border for years. That is why the Israelis would do a high speed pass over the border. No bombs were dropped, just a warning. Apparently these activities were percieved as weakness not strength. The Israelis had internally drawn a line in the sand, and the most recent abduction was simply the straw that broke the camels back. This is not just about 2 soldiers, this is about 6 years of border disputes.

The Israelis do not have border skirmishes with Jordan or Egypt, or even Syria with a buffer zone. But Pakistan would tolerate a lot less border harrassment from India than Israel has before doing something about it. If the Hindoos were sneaking across the LOC and kidnapping your Jarwans, and launching rockets across the border at your towns, Pakistan would be pi$$ed off too. So tell me, how many Pakistani soldiers can be kidnapped before you do something about it?

Re: Hezbollah and its popularity

Pakistan India conflict is very different in nature. On particular border area there was time when there was contiguous bombing almost on each day for a sustained period of time but it didn't convert into war. Then there was Kargil incident when both of them were on verge of a war but still averted. You can't use that example to convince us really.

BTW, who kidnapped who first is still a confusion for many, you are not alone.