"he who changes his deen, kill him"

It is claimed in another thread.

I am sure the guppie was referring to ‘Wajib-ul-Qatal’ who is a ‘murtad’, a wide spread belief among many Msulims.

Even though the guppie claimed it to be a saying of Prophet. Lets start with Quran! And then we will move towards Hadiths!

What is the proof(s) from Quran, that any Muslim who backs out of his ‘claim’ or ‘belief’ should be executed?

… Bring your convincing proof …[21:24]

Note: If there is another thread with this topic being the sole one. Please let me know & I will carry on with the discussions there!

The hadith is valid i don't understand what you want to achive by saying if it not in quran than its not valid or something. Valid Hadith is evidence that muslims accept just as they accept ayah of quran.

Then again..

If it's NOT in the Quran, shouldn't the discussion end there?

[quote]
Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. (6:114)
[/quote]

[quote]
And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. (10:37)
[/quote]


These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

The Sunni scholars have made the Hadiths/Sunnah into the meanings of the quran.

Hadiths = Quran
Hadiths > Quran (> = Greater)

The Ahl as Sunnah was Jamaah is based on Sunnah & Hadiths.

If Hadiths = Corruption
Sunni Islam = Mother of Corruption.

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**Then again..

If it's NOT in the Quran, shouldn't the discussion end there?

[QUOTE]
And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. (10:37)
[/quote]

buddy i dont know if the hadith stated above is sahih or not, but if it is, then there is no way we can deny it. u ask about if it is not in quran then u cant accept it..then where does it say to pray 5 times in quran? (believe me, i have searched it...only closest thing i got was pray during the corners of the day) then how do u pray? because it is not stated in quran also, then how do u perform hajj? the whole process is not stated in quran too...so whats your point? i am not the kind of the muslim who make mohammed SAW above ALlah (nauzubillah) and i consider him only human not like some people who simply belive him as a non human entity and things like that...but still, i know that with out him, islam is not completely explained and all the laws and rules of islam would not have been fullly explained if it was not the hadiths that would explain it all to us in easy wording...so drop that notion that if it is not in quran this is crap...the shcolars of hadith worked all their life cataloging hadiths and their work can not just be considered crap by ppl like us who have no knowledge whatsoever of islam and just say what comes first to our pea sized brians......

[This message has been edited by ThandyMazaq (edited November 01, 2001).]

Just my 2 cents :
Words in the Quraan are 2 be taken as the 100% truth, no denying that but on the other hand, hadith is something one needs to be more careful. If hadith is in Bukhari or Muslim then its pretty much accurate any other sources you have to see whether the scholars deem it to be authentic.

[quote]
ppl like us who have no knowledge whatsoever of islam and just say what comes first to our pea sized brians
[/quote]

First of all, calm down. We can't carry out a rational discussion when enraged. I was 'you' once. I realized it was my own duty to understand my religion.

The moment we turn to other sources than Allah, we are denying his supremacy and authority. Without going into the origin and timeframes and circumstances in which Hadiths were compiled, we need to see if the Quran instructs us to take 'other than Quran' as a source for our commandments.

I'd be interested in seeing a verse from Quran that tells us to seek out other sources for commandments which Allah naoozobillah "omitted" or naoozobillah "forgot" to mention in the Quran.

Do not let the intrepretation of your beliefs on someone 'more muslim' than you. The guidance has come down on ALL OF US as a people. It's incumbent therefore on all of us to individually strive to understand it rather than leave it to 'scholars' to define our religion for us.


These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 01, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** .... I was 'you' once. I realized it was my own duty to understand my religion.**
[/quote]

So have you understood it!
And, what is it - the Submitters?

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** The moment we turn to other sources than Allah, we are denying his supremacy and authority..... **
[/quote]

Did not Allah turn to Muhammed SWS to deliver His message?

Did Muhammed SWS not depend upon the sahabas to retain the quran in their memories?

Did not the Caliphs later depend upon these memorized qurans for compilation to text?

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
... we need to see if the Quran instructs us to take 'other than Quran' as a source for our commandments. **
[/quote]

The Quran is subject to interpretations. The Sunnis believe in their Hadiths as that source;
the shias believe in their Imams.

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:** I'd be interested in seeing a verse from Quran that tells us to seek out other sources for commandments which Allah naoozobillah "omitted" or naoozobillah "forgot" to mention in the Quran.**
[/quote]

There are plenty of verses that shias can quote re: their Imams.

Equally, the sunnis can do the same.

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** Do not let the intrepretation of your beliefs on someone 'more muslim' than you. The guidance has come down on ALL OF US as a people. It's incumbent therefore on all of us to individually strive to understand it rather than leave it to 'scholars' to define our religion for us.
**
[/quote]

I shall let you explain this part.

[quote]
So have you understood it! And, what is it - the Submitters?
[/quote]

I'm still learning.. and aren't all muslims 'submitters'?

[quote]
Did not Allah turn to Muhammed SWS to deliver His message?

Did Muhammed SWS not depend upon the sahabas to retain the quran in their memories?

Did not the Caliphs later depend upon these memorized qurans for compilation to text?
[/quote]

I said SOURCES. Messengers aren't new to this religion. The source remains a supreme being we know as Allah. Neither messenger (pbuh), nor the sahabas or the Caliphs are allowed to issue 'commandments'. They are to convey the message of God.

**Nothing is (incumbent) on the Apostle but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide(5:99)

[quote]
There are plenty of verses that shias can quote re: their Imams. Equally, the sunnis can do the same.
[/quote]

Good. Can I see one please. I said I'm still learning.


These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)

PakistaniAbroad,

Good! Please stick around. We need people like you in the Religion forum!

All: Lets stay on the topic. Please! Anyone with a Quranic verse about the 'Murtad'? ... before we move to Ahadiths.

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
What is the proof(s) from Quran, that any Muslim who backs out of his 'claim' or 'belief' should be executed?

[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Salaams to all

Hey ahmadjee, you seem ever so bent on being rebellious, it is when such a person becomes “harmful” to the society, the law and command to ‘execute” applies. In other words one can convert to any religion or even become an atheist if that is what they have chosen to become, ( In Islam there is no compulsion in religion) but when one starts trying to harm others by spreading misinformation or by misrepresentation the facts willfully or by fabrication with intent to destroy that faith, then the law against “false prophets” has to be applied . ( hence one can be sentenced to death for such a crime)

This is actually simple to understand, you see, some bacteria’s live within your body and are not harmful to you, so one will not be bothered about it but when they start harming your body , you will have to kill them or else they destroy you.

Hence in Islam the law prescribed by Allah (swt) is

6: 151 Say: "Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents: kill not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not nigh to shameful deeds whether open or secret; ** take not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law: ** thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom.

Ibrahim says: It is not only that human life is sacred, but all life is sacred. Even in killing animals for food, a dedicatory formula "in the name of Allah" has to be employed, to make it lawful. Similarly in taking life it must be by way of “Justice” and not on account of preferences, injustice or malice.

Thus in the case of those who becomes apostates, the law applicable to them are

9: 65 If thou dost question them they declare (with emphasis): "we were only talking idly and in play." ** Say: "was it at Allah and His signs and His apostle that ye were mocking?" **

9: 66 Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected faith after ye had accepted it. ** If We pardon some of you We will punish others amongst you for that they are in sin. **

Ibrahim says; hence Muslims are left to judge the situation and the circumstances and apply the law of justice, where applicable. As much as pardon should be available to those who may repent , punishment would also be due to those who may deserve it.

So you may wonder how does one identify these people?

47: 25 Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance ** was clearly shown to them ** the Evil One has instigated them and buoyed them up with false hopes.

26 This because they said to those who hate what Allah has revealed ** "We will obey you in part of (this) matter"; but Allah knows their (inner) secrets. **

27 But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death and smite their faces and their backs?

28 This ** because they followed that which called forth the Wrath of Allah ** and they hated Allah's good pleasure; so He made their deeds of no effect.

29 ** Or do those in whose hearts is a disease think that Allah will not bring to light all their rancor? **

30 Had We so willed We could have shown them up to thee and thou shouldst have known them by their marks: ** but surely thou wilt know them by the tone of their speech! ** And Allah knows All that ye do.

Ibrahim says: Hence Muslims will be able to identify them by their speech and behavior.

So you may ask where does it tell us that you should kill them?

Ibrahim says; This is applied on the basis of

3: 86 ** How shall Allah guide those who reject faith after they accepted it ** and bore witness that the Apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust.

87 ** Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah of His angels and of all mankind. **

88 In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened ** nor respite be their (lot). **

89 Except for those that repent (even) after that and make amends: for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

Now the hadd (punishment) for those who persist and try to defame and destroy Islam in their hate or rebellion is similar to that of a traitor who betrays his own country

5: 33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle ** and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion of the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: ** that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

This is further strengthen by the following hadiths,

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 9.17 Narrated by Abdullah

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Ibrahim says; ** thus this would be the logical solution for those who will harm the body, in short kill or remove the cancer or be killed by it. **

Thank you Ibrahim for pointing out the penalties for Apostasy in the Quran is Death!

Sure, it doesn't spell it out in gruesome details in the Quran, that is why you have the Sunnah & Hadiths. And, this is why I said previously:

The Sunni scholars have made the Hadiths/Sunnah into the meanings of the quran.
Hadiths = Quran
Hadiths > Quran (> = Greater)

The Ahl as Sunnah was Jamaah is based on Sunnah & Hadiths.

There is no escaping it! Welcome to 'your Islam' based on hadiths - O' Followers of Sunnah! And, Thandy thinks - he is following a deen of Allah and not man (hehehee).

And, by the way:

If Hadiths = Corruption
Sunni Islam = Mother of Corruption.

Ibrahim says; Faceup!! Got drunk or using the wrong glasses

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
Sure, it doesn't spell it out in gruesome details in the Quran,

[/quote]

Ibrahim says; huh? anyway the message is consistant even in the Bible, so read it when you are sober.

*False Prophets or False teachers *

Deuteronomy 13

  1. If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,

  2. and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"

  3. ** you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. ** The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

  4. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

    1. ** That prophet or dreamer must be put to death,** because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Duetteronomy 18:20

  1. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a ** prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."**

Isaiah 44:24-25

  1. "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

  2. ** who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners, ** who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense,

Jeremiah 50: 35-36

  1. "A sword against the Babylonians!" declares the LORD-- "against those who live in Babylon and against her officials and wise men!

  2. ** A sword against her false prophets!** They will become fools. A sword against her warriors! They will be filled with terror.

Matthew 7:15-20

15. "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

  1. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

  2. Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

  3. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

  4. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

    1. ** Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.**

2 Peter 2

  1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—** bringing swift destruction on themselves.**

Revelation 19:20

  1. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. ** The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.**

[quote]
Thus in the case of those who becomes apostates, the law applicable to them are

9: 65 If thou dost question them they declare (with emphasis): "we were only talking idly and in play." Say: "was it at Allah and His signs and His apostle that ye were mocking?"

9: 66 Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you We will punish others amongst you for that they are in sin.

Ibrahim says; **hence Muslims are left to judge **the situation and the circumstances and apply the law of justice, where applicable. As much as pardon should be available to those who may repent , punishment would also be due to those who may deserve it.

[/quote]

Muslims are left to judge? How? Where did you get that interpretation?

If I understand it right you are equating yourself to Muslims and then to God?

Allah says "WE* pardon some of you WE will punish others amongst you"*

Do you consider yourself part of "WE", which Allah has used for Himself? Are you trying to be His 'shareeq'?

Do you know what they did to the person who said 'Anal Huq'? (Though wrongfully)

Or is it that you consider Allah to be dependent on YOU to carry out his punishments? And take the law in YOUR hands?

I think you haven't read the Life of AnHazoor (saw) and his dealing with the hypocrites. Those who accused innocent Hazrat Aisha (ra) & used to bad mouth about AnHazoor (saw) during his life time ... though yet called themselves Muslims.

Are you under the impression that AnHazoor (saw) didn't know about them? Or did Allah not know what was in their hearts?

Everyone knew who they were! Those hypocrites were the worst to cause trouble, misinform & fabricate lie aganist AnHazoor (saw) & his beloved family.

Though knowing their hypocracy, knowing their evil deeds, we see that AnHazoor (saw) refrained from executing them. He didn't even punish them. Let alone, he went to their graves after they died to pray for their forgiveness!

Ibrahim, do you think, that AnHazoor (saw) didn't know of the Quranic verses that you have mentioned?

OR is that you think you understand these verses better than him (NaozoBillah) and so are willing to go out and hunt down the hypocrites & execute them? Are you claiming that you know what's in someone else's heart?

[quote]
Hey ahmadjee, you seem ever so bent on being rebellious, it is when such a person becomes harmful to the society, the law and command to 'execute' applies.
[/quote]

Are you suggesting that I should be executed? :)

Sure!

So were my forefathers. Why should I be any different!

Ibrahim says: Ahmadjee, If your house is on fire, what will you do? Similarly if your house was being eaten by termites what should you do? Or shall I say , if you had cancer will you allow it to harm your body or must you find a way to destroy it?

So Islam is based upon “sound logic” and “reason” and that is root of religion.. which is the reason why we have a shariah law, which is based on the Qur’an and the teaching and practices (sunnah) of the Prophet (pbuh)

5: 41 O Apostle! let not those grieve thee** who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say: “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; ** or it be among the Jews men who will listen to any lie will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places; they say "If ye are given this take it but if not beware: ** " If anyone’s trial is intended by Allah thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah.** For such it is not Allah’s will to purify their hearts. ** For them there is disgrace in this world ** and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

42 (They are fond of) listening to falsehood of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee either judge between them or decline to interfere. If thou decline they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge judge in equity between them; ** for Allah loveth those who judge in equity. **

49 And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed and follow not their vain desires but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. ** And if they turn away be assured that for some of their crimes it is Allah’s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious. **

Ibrahim says; Apparently you are unable to understand simple things. I made it simple, I made it clear , ** I said Islam does not compel itself on anyone , even if you chose to leave Islam, you do not become an enemy to Islam (just like an unbeliever, you are FREE to do what you want ) ** it is ONLY when one who accepted Islam and than after try to undermine it ( like a termite eating away the pillars) it becomes necessary to “judge” him/her by the laws given by Allah (swt)

Ibrahim says; Nothing comes to pass without Allah’s approval, hence IF Allah (swt) wanted to punish the guilty Allah (swt) merely exposes them to those who are in authority .

Did you not read….

13:37 Thus have ** We revealed it to be a judgment of authority in Arabic. ** Wert thou to follow their (vain) desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee then wouldst thou find neither protector nor defender against Allah.

or

did you fail to understand what this means…………

4: 59 ** O ye who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those charged with authority among you. ** If ye differ in anything among yourselves ** refer it to Allah and His Apostle if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day:** that is best and most suitable for final determination

Ibrahim says : apparently you seem to lack much knowledge about Islam and are confused about what was written. Can you show me where I have stated that I have authority to take the laws into my own hands or for that matter any Muslim ?

Ibrahim says; now you are talking about hypocrisy?? Guess what I am not talking about hypocrisy ..THINK carefully on what I have conveyed.

I said you can be an “unbeliever” ..it is alright and no harm will harm to you
I said you can leave the folds of Islam it is alright and no one will harm you
I said If you claimed you are a Muslim, when you are not or had left it for some reason and tried to mock it or disseminate disinformation concerning it, ( wage a private war against Islam which will cause others to stumble and fall) then you are similar to “cancer” and that has to be removed from the body, for the body to remain healthy…Is this simple enough for you to comprehend?

** The distinction here is that, you have become entrenched in the body ( cancerous cells) and your presence is “harmful to that body” . IF the cancerous cells are outside the body that is not a problem. ** Most of all, what is to be done is not based on anyone’s whims and fancies but the relevant authority which has the right to listen to any complaints that may be brought against you in a shariah court.

Ibrahim says; what a silly question.

Ibrahim says: Either you do not understand simple English or your rebellious “ahmadia” nature had led you to twist and turn the subject matter.

Hypocrisy and apostasy are too different things. Do I need to give English lessons too

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Oh well!

Here for the sake of your benefit……………

apostasy

1 : renunciation of a religious faith

** 2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION **

hypocrisy

** 1 : a feigning to be what one is not ** or to believe what one does not; esp : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

2 : an act or instance of hypocrisy

** Ibrahim says; Now get this straight, it is not because one abandons his/her previous faith that judgment is passed , it is because that person is becoming a nuisance and harming the rest of the faithful by his/her words and actions , that judgment becomes a necessity in that particular case. **

Now read the hadd prescribed for traitors

5: 33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion of the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides ** or exile from the land: ** that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

Ibrahim says; hence the court decides what is to be prescribes on a case to case basis.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Asslamu Alikum,
It is very clear that during Prophrt Muhammad's (PBUH) lifetime, and the lifetimes of the next 4 "Rightly Guided Caliphs," a number of Muslims left the faith of Islam. The punishment for leaving Islam was death. A close examination of the Quran and Hadeeth will show that indeed, the punishment for leaving Islam was execution.
To begin with, I agree that Quran does not come out and explicitly state that apostates should be executed. However, there are a number of Quranic verses that pertain to apostasy and they shed some light on the punishment for apostates.
Let's start with the Quran.
Surah Al-Tauba:
Verse 73: “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fire.”
Verse 74: “They swear by God that they said nothing. Yet they uttered the word of unbelief and renounced Islam after embracing it. They sought to do what they could not attain. Yet they had no reason to be spiteful except perhaps because God and His apostle had enriched them through His bounty. If they repent, it will indeed be better for them, but if they give no heed, God will sternly punish them, both in this world and in the world to come. They shall have none on this earth to protect or help them.”
We see here that ALLAH (SWT) urges Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to "make war" on the people who have left Islam. It also states that "ALLAH (SWT) will punish them in this world, and in the world to come."
What exactly Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was to do to the people in his "making war" on them is not explicitly stated, but it can be surmised that they will be physically punished, if not outright killed. Further ALLAH (SWT) HU’s self is also going to punish those who leave Islam. What is HU’s punishment? Whatever it is, is will be unpleasant.
There are several places Quran mention apostasy, but no mention of an earthly punishment is made.
It is from the Hadeeth that we can clearly draw our understanding and information on the punishment for the apostate. From the Hadeeth we find no ambiguity on the subject. All quotes are from “Sahih Bukahari”
Quote #1 Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
Quote #2 Volume 9, Book 83, Number 37:
Narrated Abu Qilaba:
Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....
Quote #3 Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated ‘Ikrima:
"Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Quote #4 Volume 9, Book 89, Number 271:
Narrated Abu Musa:
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle"

Comments Hadeeth Quote #3: Hazrat Ali (RA) being the cousin, companion of Prophet (PBUH) and one of the Rightly Guided Khalifa understood Islamic Law better then any of the contemporary Students and / or Scholars of Islam.
Comments Hadeeth Quote #4: The Prophet (PBUH) appointed and sent Abu Musa as governor of Yemen. Then later he sent Muadh ibn Jabal as his assistant. It should be noted that this incident took place during the blessed life of the Prophet (PBUH). At that time Abu Musa represented the Prophet (PBUH) as governor and Muadh as vice-governor. If their action had not been based on the decision of ALLAH (SWT) and His Messenger (PBUH), surely the Prophet (PBUH) would have objected.
Further more some people may make comments on compulsion that there is no compulsion in religion it is important to understand that according to Islam, every child is born Muslim with the built-in ability to know and believe in his Creator, he has the cognition that has been placed by ALLAH (SWT) in his nature (fitra). ALLAH (SWT) describes the human soul in a very beautiful way. After swearing by the most majestic signs of HU’s creation, ALLAH (SWT) says:
Surah Ash-Shams Verses 1-10
“….[7] By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; [8] And its inspiration as to its wrong and its right;-
[9] Truly he succeeds that purifies it, [10] And he fails that corrupts it!
ALLAH (SWT) has made our souls such that we are able to distinguish what is good and what is evil. But for a human soul to function on its fitra, there is a condition-it must be kept pure, it must be immunized against spiritual corruption.
Besides this fitra, ALLAH (SWT) has also provided us with various means to know HU and believe in HU; HU sent prophets and messengers (PBUT), HU sent books, and above all HU created thousands of signs in nature which remind us of HU. ALLAH (SWT) says:
Surah Fussilat Verse 53
“Soon will We show them Our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?”
Having accepted that from the Islamic point of view, faith in ALLAH (SWT) is ingrained in human nature, and that it is only the parents and the society that corrupt the soul and divert it from the Right Path, the question comes: Can Islam be imposed forcefully on non-Muslims? The Quran clearly says that, “Let there be no compulsion in religion:” (2:256) What this verse actually means is that: "There is no compulsion in (accepting) the Deen of Islam." Why? The verse continues, “Truth stands out clear from Error:” So Muslims can always show the difference between the right and the wrong paths, but not force the non-Muslims to accept Islam.
So, clearly what was said above was about accepting Islam, coming into the fold of Islam. It is very clear and unambiguous that no one can be forcefully brought into the fold of Islam; Islam cannot be imposed on any person or society. This was all about a person who is outside the fold of Islam.
Now then lets move to the next step. If a person is raised in a society, which protects his soul from the impurities of kufr, and shirk, or if a person is shown the Right Path and accepts it willingly - can such a person reject the Islamic faith? Is he allowed to apostate (become murtad)? Can he declare that he does not believe in ALLAH (SWT), Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and the Day of Judgement?
Once a person enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change. As soon as you become a Muslim by your own choice, you are expected to submit yourself to ALLAH (SWT) totally and completely. ALLAH (SWT) says “O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly (2:208), Notice the word “Kaffatan” in the sense of "all" and "completely". A believer surrenders the right of making decisions to ALLAH (SWT) and Messenger (PBUH): ALLAH (SWT) says “It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: …” (33:36)
Now even the question of apostasy for a Muslim, becomes a Shari / religious issue, even in this issue he is governed by the laws of Islam. And Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate. After coming into the fold of Islam, rejection of the fundamentals is not tolerated. If there are doubts in your mind about the fundamental beliefs of Islam, then discuss, question, debate, study and solve them BUT you are not allowed to leave Islam, desert your own fitra!
On the issue of openly rejecting Islam, Islam cannot just stand aside and see its followers going astray. It would allow discussions to understand and solve the problems, but not allow its followers to lower themselves from the sublime status of "surrendering to the will of ALLAH (SWT)" to the status of “non-believers”
Further more why does Islam not allow apostacy? Apostacy in Islam is equal to treason.
The Western world limits treason to political and military terms. In the USA, treason consists "only in levying war against Americans, and in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." However, sometimes even the Western world stretches the concept of political treason to include things, which are not related to politics or military matters. . For example, according to Encyclopedia Britannica in England, it is also treason to violate the monarch's consort, eldest unmarried daughter, or heir's wife. Then, even now, "polluting" the Royal bloodline or obscuring it is included in the definition of treason.
Why has England included such non-political and non-military matters in treason? Because the Royal family and the purity of its bloodline is one of the most significant part of the British society and culture. In Islam, the concept of treason is not limited to political and military affairs, it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic order of sacredness, ALLAH (SWT), then the Prophet (PBUH) and then the Quran occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyama form the constitution of Islam. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason-in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostacy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it is indeed a major fitna.
And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for apostacy. It must be emphasized that apostasy, which we are discussing here, involves open rejection, without any force and with the realization of what one's statements or actions imply.

What constitutes as leaving Islam? Who will be the judge fo that? What if I become Shia, according to some I will then be leaveing Islam. According to others I will be comming to true Islam. Or what if I become a Sufi. Will I be leaving Islam? So, who is right in these circumstances?

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Originally posted by Taj2001:
What constitutes as leaving Islam? Who will be the judge fo that? What if I become Shia, according to some I will then be leaveing Islam. According to others I will be comming to true Islam. Or what if I become a Sufi. Will I be leaving Islam? So, who is right in these circumstances?
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ALLAH (swt) knows best!!!!!!!


“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
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