Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Ok rafa’a primary use is physical. For you, it must be.. but for Allah, the way He revealed Quran, and the grammar in which the word is used in quran many verses mean, to uplift/raise/exalt ones status. I’m glad you didnt bring back the issue of the word tawaffa.

Case is even more clear. You see, even this is the plan of Allah. When he declared islam for us as our religion, he also said he has made his deen complete. So, there is nothing left to be said. This hadith is in affirmation of the ahadith presented above. Yes, Muhammad PBUH did not say Jesus(as) was of red complexion, the one who will kill dajjal, but rather of brown complexion. The hadith is not rejecting the miraj event of Muhammad PBUH seeing Jesus(as) of red complexion but rather Jesus who will kill dajjal. He(as) wont be reddish, but brown.
JazakAllah for that hadith.

PS: my question is, who is that person who is mentioned in more than 5 ahadith? the one of brown complexion ? why is he being called Isa ibn e maryam by angels and people (in holy prophet’s dream) ?

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

The questions you ask are the signs of kuffar as Allah calls them. Please refrain from asking me questions that were once asked by kuffars to Muslims and Muhammad PBUH.

I will still put forward this Quranic verse for you to ponder upon.

*17:81 And say, ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished away. Falsehood does indeed vanish away fast

*Dajjal has been killed in the same way falsehood has vanished away.

Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad(ra) has explained it very beautifully in his book. If you didnt need someone to tell you the logic of miracles, then you should have just stayed away from his book and just try putting your mind at rest that miracles are something that happens to few people and which has no logical explanation to it. Miracle can still be a miracle even if it can be explained logically. Though, I dont understand what that has to do with the topic in hand, but i’ll stop at that.

Does it ring any bell ?

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Peace Mr.Popat

If the Dajjal has vanished or falsehood has vanished - then why is there still inconsistency between our ideas regarding Isa (AS) and more drastically our ideas behind Dajjal?

You have turned Dajjal into a subject matter rather than a person like he is stated to be … and he was described in the dream of RasoolAllah (SAW) … Note: The dreams of prophets are REAL they are not to be interpreted with symbolism like we do with our own dreams. From here it is clear how different you really are from the mainstream Islamic belief.

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Peace Mr.Popat

You've done it again ... LOL you have compromised your own belief system. The basis behind the two descriptions of Isa (AS) is that you assert that the reddish description was the first Isa (AS) and the brownish description is the new Isa (AS) trying to claim that they were two different people ... but now you say it is even more clear - yes indeed - but not in your favour ... The only valid description of Isa (AS) ibn Maryam (AS) ... is that he is wheatish in complexion and there is never a second description but the translations have come about in a variety of ways.

The primary use of rafa'a is not according to me - it is according to the lexicon which is in accordance with Arabic.

To illustrate the Qur'an's use of this ... we can go to Surah Bakarah verse 63

And [recall] when We took your covenant, [O Children of Israel, to abide by the Torah] and We raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and remember what is in it that perhaps you may become righteous."

Verse 93

And [recall] when We took your covenant and raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and listen." They said [instead], "We hear and disobey." And their hearts absorbed [the worship of] the calf because of their disbelief. Say, "How wretched is that which your faith enjoins upon you, if you should be believers."

And to show that I'm not hiding anything I can show you examples of the allegorical raf'a ... which is always used in the Qur'an with the word darajaat ...

Those messengers - some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree. And We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Pure Spirit. If Allah had willed, those [generations] succeeding them would not have fought each other after the clear proofs had come to them. But they differed, and some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. And if Allah had willed, they would not have fought each other, but Allah does what He intends.

It is opinion of the Ahl-us-Sunnah that Isa (AS) was raised in status by being physically raised one complementing the other.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

an event that is contrary to the established laws of nature and attributed to a supernatural cause

An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God

miracle - definition of miracle by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

This is why you do not believe in miracles … It is not an allegation - you have no faith in what cannot be explained through rational means and exists outside your normal sphere of experiences. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You accept God can do anything - well at least your leaders do … and then claim you say they were being sarcastic …

Note: Being a Muslim we are bound by the aqeedah to believe in the true nature of miracles … i.e. that they will never be proven - there will never come a time when humans can attempt to explain or replicate the miracle of Allah (SWT) we may be able to make a show of it and create an illusion of it, but never be able to achieve it.

The challenge is open - Ibrahim (AS) was placed on a burning pile that had been prepared for days - he was not harmed in the slightest … this is a miracle because there is no way we can replicate that using only the technologies of that era … Ibrahim (AS) was no scientist … he made no attempt to save himself or preapre himself from the fire, but he was saved - there is no level of yoga that can achieve that …

Just as the Qur’an is a miracle (but this miracle is a subtle one - it confuses people) but the same applies - the Qur’an cannot be replicated … the accusation levelled against the Qur’an is that Muhammad (SAW) had taken the information or had help - but today we can see how false this is because with today’s technology we can still not come up with the Qur’anic style … many professors and linguists have tried and failed.

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Didn't read the long long threads my apologies. But isn't this a logic when a human being dies he never comes back riiiiight. So return of Jesus is possible when he is supposedly taken to heavens with God's permission?. Which confirms Muslims' point of view that Jesus will return one day. Sorry do not want to offend anyone's belief but i go with my logic. I have been called bad Christian due to my beliefs but faith should be backed by logical proofs too. I am currently reading Chapter Maryam from Quran to look more into Muslims' belief of Jesus. Have tons of questions will post later.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Mr.Popat Peace

I saw that video and it does the same thing that you have been doing. Which is picking up a very big hammer but hitting it on your own foot.

Some advice, if you intend to seek problems in others first see if you are clear of the accusation that you are trying to level.

Now ... from 8 minutes and 12 seconds you are comparing the similarity between Jews and Muslim regarding:

The idea that there will be peace and no more fighting for a while ... this similarity **did you know**** is shared with the Ahmadis too?**

Now let's see what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says about the result of his own coming ... taken from Tadkirah

Translation: **God has informed me: Peace and friendship will**
spread through thee. A wild beast will be at peace with a goat and a
serpent will play with children. This is what God has determined,
though people might wonder at it (Ishtihar Wajibul Izhar pp. 2-3.
Zameema Tarayaq-ul-Qulub).

Translation: (a) **It happens often that the Holy Prophet, peace be on
him, tells me something and I hear it, but I do not see him. This is a
condition midway between vision and revelation. Last night he said
concerning the Promised Messiah (Arabic): He will put off fighting and
will bring about peace between people, **meaning that there will be two
signs for the Promised Messiah, one external, that there will be no
fighting, and one internal, that peace will be made.
Thereafter he said (Arabic): Salman is one of us, a member of
the household. Here also Salman (Silman) means a double peace.
He then said (Arabic): According to the method of Hassan;
meaning that Hassan (may Allah be pleased with him) had brought
about a double peace, one whereby he made peace with Muawiyah
and the other that he brought about peace between the Companions
of the Holy Prophet. This shows that the Promised Messiah has the
characteristics of Hassan.

Then he said (Urdu): He will drink the same milk that Hassan
drank.

The Promised Messiah observed: The saying that the Mahdi
will be a descendant of the Holy Prophet has been explained by this
revelation and also the function of the Promised Messiah, who is also
the Mahdi, has been expounded. Those who allege that as soon as he
appears he would wield the sword and will slaughter the disbelievers
are in error. The truth is, as indicated in these revelations, that he will
bring about a double peace, both external and internal (Al-Hakam, Vol.
IV, No. 40, November 10, 1900, p. 3).

Now when did any of these peaceful times happen? And if they are not to be taken literally what is the meaning of these words? And take care when you provide these reinterpretations because I will ask next if that interpretation is specific enough to locate to the result of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad being here.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

To answer your first part, in the same way Jews or Christians continue to believe Jesus as son of God , or jews in that matter that he was not the true prophet of God. Indeed, both are falsehood. You tell me why is there still falsehood despite saying that falsehood has vanished away.

You see, this is why I posted the video in which the similarities of jews were shown with Muslims. You have no basis whatsoever in what ever you say. To take everything literally is the biggest mistake you make. Muhammad PBUH saw dreams, and the dreams he saw were not just ordinary but has meaning to it.. he (saw) saw dreams, but they cant be said to be all real literally. Though, they all were meaningful dreams.

Mainstream muslims or not.. I dont mind and frankly dont care. If whats not in accordance to Quran and ahadith, then know my friend, I'd give preference to Allah's true deen, as i have to give life to him alone and not mainstream muslims.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

I am very much certain about what I believe in.. and Im not believing something knowing its wrong. I have evidence from Quran and ahadith to prove my point. You on the other hand have assumptions after assumptions and your claim of being in the majority being on the right path.

Again, you dont get where Im coming from, do you? I posted 7 ahadith in urdu, in full.. one Jesus was when muhammad pbuh went to miraj and saw him, he pbuh described him of reddish complexion.

the hadith you provided are in my favour indeed. Even in that, muhammad pbuh saw a person of brown complexion. The hadith does not refute the other hadith where muhammad pbuh saw jesus of nazareth, but rather confirming that the other jesus who will come in my ummah, will be of brown complexion. Such an easy thing you are having trouble understanding. Read the ahadith one more time please, and then read the hadith you posted. Jesus that was seen on miraj was reddish in color ( see hadith in previous page ), the jesus who will kill dajjal will be of brown complexion.. (again, see your own hadith u posted and ahadith i posted). not just 1 time was jesus of nazareth described as reddish but 3/4 times.

[QUOTE]
The primary use of rafa'a is not according to me - it is according to the lexicon which is in accordance with Arabic.

To illustrate the Qur'an's use of this ... we can go to Surah Bakarah verse 63

And [recall] when We took your covenant, [O Children of Israel, to abide by the Torah] and We raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and remember what is in it that perhaps you may become righteous."

Verse 93

And [recall] when We took your covenant and raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and listen." They said [instead], "We hear and disobey." And their hearts absorbed [the worship of] the calf because of their disbelief. Say, "How wretched is that which your faith enjoins upon you, if you should be believers."

And to show that I'm not hiding anything I can show you examples of the allegorical raf'a ... which is always used in the Qur'an with the word darajaat ...

Those messengers - some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree. And We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Pure Spirit. If Allah had willed, those [generations] succeeding them would not have fought each other after the clear proofs had come to them. But they differed, and some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. And if Allah had willed, they would not have fought each other, but Allah does what He intends.

It is opinion of the Ahl-us-Sunnah that Isa (AS) was raised in status by being physically raised one complementing the other.
[/QUOTE]

The word rafaa has been discussed in accordance to Quran. There are verses and ahadith using that word which means raising ones soul. When the word raf'aa is used with someone living, in Quran's case, us, humans.. then it means raising ones rank/status... I see no reason why you should disagree to that.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

I'm more than excited to talk to you about my jamaat. Jamaat e Ahmadiyya, the true face of Islam. But unfortunately, this thread is not on my jamaat. I will not answer you any question that has anything to do with the promised Messiah, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as).

If you have something to tell me about the ahadith where one jesus is mentioned as reddish and another as brown, i'd be happy to reply to that. Keep in mind, you cant say Jesus of Nazareth was of brown complexion. Ahadith refute your claim of that. Jesus of nazareth was of reddish complexion , which is understandable because people of israel,palestine are of that complexion..

Lets talk about one thing at a time and not jump here and there.. you wana talk to me about my jamaat, by all means open up another thread and start asking Ahmadis questions.

The video very well describe your current stance on everything you say to refute the true teachings of Islam and therefore, showing resemblance to jews.

ps: oh, and when you read something from quran or hadith, do read the entire hadith or entire verse and a verse before and after it too.. for dajjal, read all the ahadith and then make your conclusion. I again say, not to make Islam a religion of fairytales that will never happen in anyone's lifetime.

Also, about miracles, sure i do believe there are supernatural powers.. but to say that if such and such can happen then so can ascension of isa(as) is a very poor and weak argument that has not basis of it whatsoever.

Peace.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Mr.Popat I read that part in bold and I don't know whether I should laugh or cry ... or bash my head on the wall ... Take a deep breath and see why "Dajjal cannot mean falsehood" - because if falsehood means Dajjal that means Dajjal is still alive and if Isa (AS) has come already then Dajjal should be destroyed by now ... So we either conclude that Dajjal is not falsehood but a person who is a liar, or we conclude that Isa (AS) has not come yet or we conclude that neither Isa (AS) has come nor Dajjal has been destroyed yet.

The video - I like it ... I especially want to know where they got the music back tracking for it ... In summary there are three similarities being levelled against the mainstream Muslims with the Jews and hence concluding that we are mistaken like they have been.

aJ) Jews believe in a physical appearance of Elijah before the Messiah hence they reject Isa (AS)
aM) Muslims believe in a physical appearance of Isa (AS) hence we reject your Promised Messiah

bJ) Jews claim that there will be no disbelief
bM) Muslims claim that Islam will be everywhere

cJ) Jews believe there will be a period of lasting peace resulting from the Messiah
cM) Muslims believe there will be a period of lasting peace resulting from the Messiah

Hence you conclude that since Jews were mistaken about Isa (AS) we Muslims are mistaken about your promised Messiah.

First of all ... this is an inductive argument - it is not logically water tight ... secondly, the rules and standards by which Jews were looking for their Messiah are by no means the same as ours ... thirdly, they were right to ask Isa (AS) about whether he was the Messiah and he (AS) said ... "No" ... it is because he (AS) knew that he was not THAT messiah spoken of to deliver the believers ... well not at that time of the first coming ... He had not come to fulfil the prophecy - but it was him indeed as a person (AS) in person.

Next there is no other way to re-interpret the idea that "there will be no ambiguity about Isa (AS) that Islam will be in all places" - This is understood categorically "The Kingdom of God on Earth" is the global order of Islam being established. There is no other way to reinterpret this - yes there will be kufr but everyone will know about the Messiah and recognise his truth.

Lastly we both believe in the lasting peace ... however, none of these are direct reasons why the Jews rejected Isa (AS) and why we reject your Promised Messiah ... You are applying the logical fallacy of if two people share some traits then they are the same in all their traits. There is no reason why Jews can't be wrong about Isa (AS) and us Muslims are right about your Promised Messiah ... We have certain criteria to look for, and none of them were fulfilled and at least we look to see a reduction of problems and fitnah in the world after the coming of your Messiah and rather we see an increase of bloodshed - 2 world wars, the ending of the Caliphate, the fitnah in the promised land, propaganda at its height and Muslims heavily persecuted ... if Mahdi/Masih was our only chance and your claim that he has come and gone - then for sure he came too early, because now is worse than it has ever been.

The age of the end of tyrrant Muslim rulers is only just beginning to topple ... Furthermore - our hadith show that when Isa (AS) comes part of his mission is to clarify and unify us about him ... this has not happened at all - people are more disunited since your Messiah has left - your group has not grown enough to cater for the level of disunity ... Rather when the true Messiah comes all of this will end because he will clarify it for us ... in his own life time. Even if it is not in his life time and we go by your interpretation then at least the state should be getting better - but it has gotten worse ....

But yeah I like that video ... because of that musical back tracking ...

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I dont mind saying this, but you have very poor grip on comparison of 2 things. Not even once did i comment anything about dajjal in relation to the verse about falsehood. I was merely trying to get your attention to the verse of Quran where it says that truth has come and falsehood has vanished. If you dont take this literally in a sense that all the falsehood in the world has gone, then why do you take the killing of dajjal so literally ? do you not believe falsehood has vanished away through the coming of Quran. Indeed it did.. but what do we see around the world? falsehood still is there. What does that tell you ? It tells you that a person who accepts islam, for him falsehood will be vanished away from him. as Islam is a complete and true religion. I guess you're not used to my short comments, but then again, theres no impact on you anyway with all the long replies i write to you.. o well.. You explain to me how falsehood has vanished away.. and you'll get your answer within your own answer how dajjal was killed.

[QUOTE]
The video - I like it ... I especially want to know where they got the music back tracking for it ... In summary there are three similarities being levelled against the mainstream Muslims with the Jews and hence concluding that we are mistaken like they have been.

aJ) Jews believe in a physical appearance of Elijah before the Messiah hence they reject Isa (AS)
aM) Muslims believe in a physical appearance of Isa (AS) hence we reject your Promised Messiah

bJ) Jews claim that there will be no disbelief
bM) Muslims claim that Islam will be everywhere

cJ) Jews believe there will be a period of lasting peace resulting from the Messiah
cM) Muslims believe there will be a period of lasting peace resulting from the Messiah

Hence you conclude that since Jews were mistaken about Isa (AS) we Muslims are mistaken about your promised Messiah.

First of all ... this is an inductive argument - it is not logically water tight ... secondly, the rules and standards by which Jews were looking for their Messiah are by no means the same as ours ... thirdly, they were right to ask Isa (AS) about whether he was the Messiah and he (AS) said ... "No" ... it is because he (AS) knew that he was not THAT messiah spoken of to deliver the believers ... well not at that time of the first coming ... He had not come to fulfil the prophecy - but it was him indeed as a person (AS) in person.

Next there is no other way to re-interpret the idea that "there will be no ambiguity about Isa (AS) that Islam will be in all places" - This is understood categorically "The Kingdom of God on Earth" is the global order of Islam being established. There is no other way to reinterpret this - yes there will be kufr but everyone will know about the Messiah and recognise his truth.

Lastly we both believe in the lasting peace ... however, none of these are direct reasons why the Jews rejected Isa (AS) and why we reject your Promised Messiah ... You are applying the logical fallacy of if two people share some traits then they are the same in all their traits. There is no reason why Jews can't be wrong about Isa (AS) and us Muslims are right about your Promised Messiah ... We have certain criteria to look for, and none of them were fulfilled and at least we look to see a reduction of problems and fitnah in the world after the coming of your Messiah and rather we see an increase of bloodshed - 2 world wars, the ending of the Caliphate, the fitnah in the promised land, propaganda at its height and Muslims heavily persecuted ... if Mahdi/Masih was our only chance and your claim that he has come and gone - then for sure he came too early, because now is worse than it has ever been.
[/QUOTE]

The age of the end of tyrrant Muslim rulers is only just beginning to topple ... Furthermore - our hadith show that when Isa (AS) comes part of his mission is to clarify and unify us about him ... this has not happened at all - people are more disunited since your Messiah has left - your group has not grown enough to cater for the level of disunity ... Rather when the true Messiah comes all of this will end because he will clarify it for us ... in his own life time. Even if it is not in his life time and we go by your interpretation then at least the state should be getting better - but it has gotten worse ....

But yeah I like that video ... because of that musical back tracking ...
[/QUOTE]

I like your honesty in the points that you wrote. Yes, indeed, history repeats itself. Have no doubt in that. Prophet Muhammad PBUH himself said that there will come a time when Islam will remain a religion by its name, Quran will be recited but no one will understand the true meaning of it, your mosques will be filled with worshippers, though their heart will be deprived of the true teachings of Islam. Nothing will be left of Quran but the scripture itself.. at that time. You are being illogical in your assumption that since you have been believing what your forefathers have been believing for such many years, it must be truth and nothing else but the truth. The very reason of Jesus and imam mahdi is to tell you the true teachings of Islam. Know this for certain, that you will disbelieve in him since you are of no doubt that the islam that you propagate is the same as that which Muhammad PBUH brought.

Prophet Muhammad PBUH also said that his shariya will follow the footstep of jews, so much so that it will be like one shoe resembling another.

You have rejected someone who claimed to be from Allah in the same basis jews rejected Isa(as). Jews have certain criteria just as you say you do. You are not any different than jew in that case. Islam will be the religion that will be victorious, but that doesnt mean you will see this happening as soon as Messiah will come. A messenger comes to sow a seed and then the progress of shariya continue to progress in the latter days. Moses(as) died right before entering the promised land. That does not mean he was false in his claim that Israel was the promised land. Their disciples entered and fulfilled his prophecy.

Its funny how you say that Islam is a complete religion and that you understood Islam the right way and no belief has ever changed in islam..but on other hand you have this soft side about jesus and how he will clarify on things we dispute in. Well, you will still disbelieve in him even if he comes in future because you cannot tolerate anyone claiming to be from Allah and telling you the true interpretation of Quranic verses.

Speaking of peace in the world. It is very illogical to think that peace will just happen out of no where. You are sitting on computer, having coffee, rejecting the promised messiah and his true teachings of Islam, and then askin when it happened? Nothing of that sort will ever happen if you dont thrive to get it yourself. Accept the man of Allah and you will have peace of mind and heart and will not be unrested. This peace you will transfer in your social circle..friends, family, wife, kids etc.. this peace will get in society and will eventually get in the world. This process takes time...but how will that ever happen if you dont join a jamaat who is peaceful, who is out there to propagate true Islam. If you wont join the jamaat, then the chaos will continue to be there in the world. Join the jamaat and you will experience peace.

Thank you for liking the video. Get to know the message of the video and reflect upon it.. you can also enjoy the music at the back.

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Peace Mr.Popat

Ah I see your argument … but you’re making another grammatical mistake … first of all here is a tafsir of the verse:

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - A Threat to the Disbelievers of the Quraysh

Secondly in Arabic as opposed to English when a statement is made to express a universal fact - then it is said in the past tense.

When it is said “truth has come, and falsehood has vanished” - it is to infer when truth about a matter comes then the falsehood about that matter vanishes. Likewise … when Isa (AS) comes people will see that the Dajjal is not the Messiah but Isa (AS) is the true Messiah. You cannot claim that this verse has a reading that Qur’an has come and falsehoods of all kinds go … however, you can claim that Islam came to Makkah and Paganism vanished or that since the Qur’an came then the poets of Arabia were defeated.

Again if the Dajjal is still here then Isa (AS) has not yet come.

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Sure, thats the translation of the verse. By the coming of Islam, their falsehood has perished and vanished. Thats the claim of Quran. I whole heartedly believe in that. But it seems the argument you are putting forth is, if x is still present, then the xyz claim cannot be held true. In that case, you are denying the fact that by the coming of Islam, falsehood has perished. Falsehood is still here. Other religions are still present in the world, despite the presence of Islam.

Isa(as) of Nazareth will not come. He was reddish in color. Isa(as), the one who will kill dajjal will be of brown complexion. He(as) has come with the title of Promised Messiah. I will again say, dajjal has been killed the same way falsehood has vanished.

PS: Its again not thread about my jamaat. Please stick to the topic in hand. I said it before too, that i’m willing to talk to you about anything and everything.. but i do not want this thread to be derailed. Answer my specific questions and get your specific answers regarding this topic.

I have still failed to know where in the famous verse that you present about the ascension of jesus are either any of these 3 words present? .

  1. body 2)alive 3)sky/heaven.

I have still failed to know from Quran the 3rd way of Allah taking someone to himself, apart from sleep and death. The 3rd possibility is not present.

I have still failed to understand why the first ijmaah of sahabah after the death of Muhammad PBUH was on the verse that all prophets before Him have passed away?

I again fail to see why Jesus of bani israel(as)'s physical appearance has been described differently by Muhammad PBUH than the Jesus(as) who will kill dajjal ?

I have not gotten a clear answer as to why He needs to tell Muslim what is the correct interpretation of Quran when Islam as understood by you is what you think to be all truth? Why will He not be rejected by people like you? Who gives him the authority to tell you whats written in Quran? Afterall, you have been believing in something for the past 1400+ years?

And i was not done yet.. I still have many many questions. But what I find amazing is that you always have some illogical explanation to give to these questions.. which not only create confusion in your own beliefs but leave me, and I believe most people speechless that what you believe in certainly cannot be from Islam. I just want you thinking about these questions and look for answers which do not contradict the islamic teachings.

Peace.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

You might find this interesting. This documentary was shown on BBC or channel 4.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Okay Mr.Popat

I'll play it your way ... happy :) ???

Your answers are below:

The words body - alive - sky/heaven are not present in the verse

The Qur'an talks of people being taken by Allah and in two places it talks of death taking and how Allah takes people in sleep - there is no where in the Qur'an where it specifically states that the "taking" is also done in any other way or not. It is silent on that matter.

I don't agree with you that the first ijmah of the sahabah after the death of Muhammad (SAW) was on the verse that all prophets before him (SAW) have passed away.

I don't agree with you that Isa (AS)'s first appearance was described differently to the Isa (AS) described who will kill Dajjal ...

He (AS) may well be a follower in the respect that he learns as he is here with us - just as RasoolAllah (SAW) used to ask the Jews to bring their books and read from them so he (SAW) could sentence them accordingly - in a similar manner there is no reason why Isa (AS) should not be expected to do the same thing.

You have many, many questions ... that is fine - perhaps another time ... or another thread ...

Because we disagree with the fundamentals there is no point to this discussion.

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Peace again psyah,
Thank you for your continuous contribution in this thread. I do understand that I keep asking you same questions and without sorting out one thing, we tend to jump to another issue. Anyhow, I also do understand that due to such a long debate in this very thread, you may be losing interest just as I am. Despite that, I will try replying to you in a very short post, so you actually do read the reply.

Thats right. Neither of these 3 words i.e: body, alive, sky/heaven is present in the verse which is famously known as a verse that is said to be in favor of Jesus(as)'s ascension. Infact, no where will you find in Quran or hadith any prophet or any ordinary human being going up to heavens alive physically. Not even 1 verse. In the contrary, we do find messenger of Allah denying the request of kuffar that he cannot go up to heavens to get a book for them to read.

Thank you. Just 2 ways of Allah taking one up is mentioned in Quran. Sleep and death. Quran is silent in any other possibility, therefore if Jesus(as) was a human being, then the same rule applies to Him as well. Hes been taken up either in sleep or in death. No other possibility allowed by Qur'an.

Yes indeed. The first ijmaah of sahaba(may peace be upon them all) was on the verse that Hazrat Abu Bakr(ra) recited infront of Hazrat Umar(ra) and all other sahaba present. The verse was and I quote :

[QUOTE]
3:144 And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.
[/QUOTE]

Also, the words of Abu Bakr(ra) were that if you worshiped Muhammad PBUH, then know that He is dead.. but if you worship Allah, then know he is ever alive and death does not come on him. We see not a single sahaba saying anything regarding Isa(as) at that time.

the ahadith is clear in the matter of the appearance of Jesus of bani israel and Jesus who will be in the ummah of Muslims. Unless you show me my error otherwise.

Yes indeed. He (as) will be a follower of Muhammad PBUH. Jesus of bani israel still does not qualify to be an ordinary follower of Muslim shariyah, as such a request was denied to Moses(as), let alone be a prophet of this ummah. Yes, jesus(as) has been called Prophet, but the prophet who was sent to bani israel was only for bani israel.. I do believe history repeats itself and the verse where allah says that you will not see any change in my law also applies here too. Prophet Isa(as) will be rejected in the same way all other prophets had been rejected and mocked at. You will not tolerate Jesus(as) telling you the correct interpretation of Qur'an and hence will declare him as someone outside of shariya, or outside of Islam, even if hes following Islam to his fullest.

Either you are not following the holy book or I am not. Because there is no other reason why we should have disagreements if our standard of debate is the Holy Quran. I see no reason why we should even disagree to anything that make sense, especially if its from the Holy Quran.

358

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr.Popat

I disagree with the parts in bold and the responses can be found in previous posts.