Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
301

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr.Popat

Your presented verse did not say "not eye" , you are saying that. Also, I already stated that it is irrespective whether Allah (SWT) was or was not seen, the journey did take place. The evidence I did not repeat I gave you links for it, so it is again wrong of you to say that I didn't give you anything.

What you are failing to see in that phrase you provided - prayer is the mi'raj ... Is that it is constructed as a simile. Like saying "you are the apple of my eye".

Of course in this sentence a person can't be an apple literally, so we have to assume a different meaning for the word apple, in this sentence only ... However outside this sentence an apple is exactly a physical object that we can eat.

Now replace "you" with "prayer" , and replace "apple" with "mi'raj" and you get the same thing ... Prayer itself can't be equivalent to the mi'raj, so we have to give mi'raj a different meaning to what normally takes outside this sentence. This is a simple rule of poetic interpretation.

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55 Surah ar Rahman Ayah 01 To 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvj7vRuNA7w&feature=related

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[QUOTE]

You must admit that what we believe is NOT baseless, to suggest this is a lie. You must also admit that the death of Isa(as)
is never expressed unambiguously - for the wisdom of God, perhaps that certain signs of the hour occur, i.e. the imposters.
And hence the title Wise is also used in the verses around the tawaffee.

[/QUOTE]

Where did I say that your belief is a lie. try reading post#278 and 279. I was answering to a comment made by 'ninja hatori'
and I called the consensus on this issue a lie. verses 116 and 117 are good enough for any open-minded person to see that
Jesus (as) is no more. 'IK NISHAAN KAAFI HAI GAR DIL MAIN HO KHAUF-E-KIRDGAAR'
The wisdom of Allah could be that only the truthful one from within the ummat claims to be Messiah. You can see that numerous
people claimed to be the Mahdi. perhaps they saw some prospects of their success when they had some points in their favor
like name, father's name etc. but no one claimed to be Messiah before hazrat mirza Ghulam Ahmed (as). Anyways, let us not
talk about the wisdom of Allah.

[quote]

If I ever find examples of other usage I'll let you know about it, at the moment I don't, but from what our scholars say
because of the way this act is used as rebuttal of the claims to his being killed, since this word is used like it has been a
promise to him, this promise is associated to how the Messiah shall not be harmed, the power of Allah is invoked to suggest
that what happened is something remarkable, other places in the Qur'an suggest that he (as) will be alive in old age, other
places again suggest that all need to believe in Isa (as) before he dies, plenty of references suggesting his return,
the core belief that humans die once, the legacy of the story of Isa (as) ... are for us evidence that he is alive and hence
taken out of this existence to be put into another.

[/quote]

When Allah said that the Jews were not able to kill him(as) then what else is needed for rebuttal for the claims of killing
but the main thing where is the rebuttal of him being an accursed one. Here we say that Allah blessed him with His nearness
and honored him rather than giving him the treatment of a false prophet.
We also believe that Jesus (as) died in old age.
Again you referred to the power of Allah. btw, what is your concept of the power of Allah. for instance, do you think when
the holy prophet(pbuh) was saved from the hands of 'kuffar' in cave saur was less grand and didn't depict the power of Allah
since nothing 'grand' as per your standards happened

[QUOTE]

Lastly you seem obsessed at dismantling the orthodox belief, but do not propose what this is to be replaced by ... You say
that mi'raj could not have happened due to some problems that seem to evade reality for you, you call them fairy tales,
however, I can dig up similar artefacts from your beliefs that would be considered fairy tales by your standards, so I ask
why the double standards? Why, must you attempt to dismantle the system of another, when you have less than it as
replacement? And if you have more to offer ... Then do so, offer it and see if we can't find the problems in it, that you so
love to find in ours.

[/QUOTE]

I am not obssessed with anything. I simply don't care what you believe in and what you don't. I am not trying to dismenttle anything. When you extend ideas then you should be able listen to the response as well. There is no need to be paranoid about it. **
we believe in mairaj but believe it to be spiritual experience** and not physical one and we have reasons to believe so and by doing so we are not trying to belittle its importance. Why do you think unless something is physical, it can't be grand and depict the power of Allah.

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did you care to read my response in post #238. Pls explain your comment in the last sentence and how does it make any sense

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Just thinking out loud: There has been 16 pages of nothingness and I am sure the way things are going, another 16 are on their way. This is not the way to go. As LKK mentioned in a previous thread that the discussion should not from the perspective of winning or losing but the purpose should be that you get an opportunity to get view of others on certain matters and remove the misconceptions and thus lessen the mistrust between us but unfortunately, it seems that things are heading south.
I would like to say that despite many differences, there are so many commonalities that we ignore or take for granted. for instance:
1) Belief in one Allah who is one and only. Has no partners, no sons, daughters etc.
2) Belief in All the prophets/messengers, divine books, angels of Allah and the judgment day
3) that the divine law that prophet Muhammad(pbuh) brought is the final testament and guide for the mankind
4) Both believe in and recite the same Kalima Tayyba 'There no God but Allah and Muhammad(pbuh) is His messenger'. this is the kalima for ever.
5) All the five pillars of Islam and six articles of faith
6) The sunnah of Khatam-an-nabiyeen, the holy prophet(pbuh) is the guide to us all and the only path to attain spiritual exellence and closeness to Allah.
and so many others. We must also cherish the commonalities rather than always talk about differences. The differences may remain but at least we can strive to stop viewing each other as enemies.

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Peace kchughtai

I didn't say that you said "our belief is a lie", but I did say that "it is a lie to suggest our belief is baseless" which to any person to say a certain belief is baseless is tantamount to saying that it is fabricated or a lie. However due to the points I gave thereafter I showed how there is a categorical basis for our beliefs and therefore the belief is not baseless.

The verse 116 and 117 ... I take you meant surah Maida, then it is already established that uttering is stated in our future, so there is no categorical statement that Isa (AS) has died in reference to our past according to the Qur'an. Since I am arguing on logical grounds there is indeed room to suggest that he may have died in our past, but by no means is the language mandating that ... logically you have to admit that it can also be talking about a point in time between now and Judgement Day. Furthermore you can also say that the translation is not limited to a single time, but can also take the meaning - whenever I was with them ... in which case from a logical point of view alone it is a matter of choice which one you agree with ... however, there are other verses in place with for us tilt the favour towards him - Isa (AS) being alive.

Yes, now consider I'm talking to my wife about where I went yesterday, "I didn't go to my parent's home, and I didn't go to my friend's home, rather I went to work". This statement is talking about a time frame of my whereabouts. I have to account for the exact disposition that I was in ... during the absent period. So my denial on going to parent's home or friend's home is not enough, but further I need to say what did in fact happen at that time, in such a manner that it makes the other options invalid.

Likewise ... In that verse during the setting of when Isa (AS) was supposed to have been captured, killed or crucified in neither case was this true, but during those moments up until the crucifixion and shortly thereafter we conclude the net part of the verse was the condition of Isa (AS) ... i.e. he was taken over by Allah (SWT) and hidden from view. He was not caused to die there and then because then he could not live to see old age. Somehow he (AS) escaped both crucifixion and being killed in any other way. There are references outside the canonical gospels to suggest that it was another person. This is the general consensus of the Muslims as well.

Yes I believe there were amazing things that happened in the case of the pursuit of Sayyidina Muhammad (SAW), where the cave mouth was covered by the spider and pigeons roosted laying eggs there in record time. And how the cave became a comfort for the visitors. But if you want to talk about amazing, then think of the parting of the sea by Musa (AS), the splitting of the moon, the revelation of Qur'an ... all of these are amazing, but what it particular about Allah (SWT) causing him to die? Allah (SWT) causes everyone to die. In fact one could argue that how can causing him to die negate the possibility of him (AS) being killed or crucified? Indeed it does not ... the people who claim to have killed Isa (AS) upon hearing that "they did not kill him but rather God took his life" will rejoice ... that they did the killing, but God has taken credit for it. They will say that their hands are clean from the murder, if God so claimed that his life was taken by Him. No ... you see every soul is caused to die by Allah (SWT) ... that statement of opposition is not an opposition at all. It has to take the meaning in a manner that prevents the killing or crucifixion from being remotely true ... and hence the "taking" has to be done whilst Isa (AS) is alive.

So it is not to say I'm claiming you are belittling it's importance, but what I am saying is that you version is taking the sense out of the argument.

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Peace all,

Here is a detailed discussion of ‘Rafa-e-Isa(as)’. Pls take a look. Hopefully, it will make thinks clearer.

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man few topic r banned here thats y u r able to discuss this issue otherwise u would have been defending ur path......

a lot is discussed decades ago i dont think there is room for more discussion........

if u were intrested in truth then may be i was intrested to debate but u r here to preach ur path.....

and dont talk about Quran and Ahadith every one deviated from islam use it let it be terrorist or any other deviated sect

P.S only one person championed the idea that isa alehi salam died (nauzbillah).................

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

You always bring ‘general consensus’ as your ultimate argument. pls take a look what deedat sahib has to say on substitution. He was an ardent opponent of Ahmadiyya but his views on substitution fall away from the ‘consensus’ on substitution

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Psyah,

Pls enlighten us with your views on Jesus(as) killing or leading the pigs to their death. What was that all about and why did he kill animals and that was a matter of pride. I was trying to look for this subject and found that the pigs were possessed by demons. Do you believe all this stuff?

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[QUOTE]

The verse 116 and 117 ... I take you meant surah Maida, then it is already established that uttering is stated in our future, so there is no categorical statement that Isa (AS) has died in reference to our past according to the Qur'an. Since I am arguing on logical grounds there is indeed room to suggest that he may have died in our past, but by no means is the language mandating that ... logically you have to admit that it can also be talking about a point in time between now and Judgement Day. Furthermore you can also say that the translation is not limited to a single time, but can also take the meaning - whenever I was with them ... in which case from a logical point of view alone it is a matter of choice which one you agree with ... however, there are other verses in place with for us tilt the favour towards him - Isa (AS) being alive.

Yes, now consider I'm talking to my wife about where I went yesterday, "I didn't go to my parent's home, and I didn't go to my friend's home, rather I went to work". This statement is talking about a time frame of my whereabouts. I have to account for the exact disposition that I was in ... during the absent period. So my denial on going to parent's home or friend's home is not enough, but further I need to say what did in fact happen at that time, in such a manner that it makes the other options invalid.

[/QUOTE]

Yes I meant surah-e-maida. The death of Jesus(as) is very clear from this one. Even if you don't take tawaffee to be death, still it makes his death clear.
If Tawaffee means death then the only fact that his followers made him and his mother Gods after his death, testifies that he has died already
If Tawaffee remains a question mark for a moment even then it is clear that he has died. He remained witness over them till his tawaffee. There is no mention of any 2nd coming. no mention of him being aware of their shirk. no mention of him being witness over his people again. Yet another verse 4:159 suggests that he will be witness on his people on the judgment day. no mention of him being witness over them before that.

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Yes I know … His views give more preference to the idea that Isa (AS) was not killed on the cross, but unfortunately I disagree with him because the Qur’an says he (AS) was not crucified, but Sh. Deedat argues the possibility that he was put on the cross, but not killed on it. For me being put on the cross is being crucified on the cross, despite what definition your prop out from dictionaries - the Arabic is clear. He (AS) was not killed and not crucified.

The idea of substitution is extra scriptural - i.e. from other research outside the Qur’an.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

Yes demons - legion ... because they were many - he (AS) prayed and the jinns (demons) exited the body of the man and entered a group of pigs and the pigs drowned themselves in the river ... This to me is quite clearly "killing of swine" ... The same can be done in future too ... a simple du'a is what is needed for the swine to be killed - he does not need to be going around like a butcher as you suggest.

And you have a limited view of the ghaib things in our existence. Are you telling me you do not believe in Jinn?

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If this event is yet to take place - i.e. at the Day of Judgement as you yourself said many posts ago - then we can say only one thing for sure - that Isa (AS) will die before the Day of Judgement ... we cannot conclude that it has already happened ... but we can say that it might have happened and might not yet.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

are you suggesting day of judgement will happen right after Isa(as)'s death? Are you saying the same tawaffee means taking up fully right now and the same tawaffee will mean death after he comes? Why can the same word not mean death now? Its not a quality of a momin to neglect other verses of Quran to fit your belief.

3:55 When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee fromthe charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.

lets keep aside the translation where it says ' case thee to die a natural death '.

Lets examine the rest of the verse.

'when allah "said" ' >> implies that it has already happened. Allah has spoken to Jesus(as) regarding this already. If it had to happen sometime in future, it would have been something like ' when allah will say '..
'will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve' >>> has this happened ? or will happen ? is he cleared from the false accusation jews put on him ? answer is yes. How? Through Quran. He is cleared from all the false charges.
'and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve' >> has this happened ? or will happen ? answer is yes.. it has happened. People who have followed him i.e Christians and Muslims, they're above those who disbelieved. i.e jews... in the eyes of Allah and in worldly affairs as well..

So now, all of the rest of the verse has happened.. but alas, death has not. Word will remain the same, but this time it means taken up bodily.. once he dies.. the same word would mean death.. ironic!

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr.Popat

The part of your post which is most pertinent for a reply is left quoted above ... so let's be clear about this ...

You ask am I "suggesting the Day of Judgement will happen straight after Isa (AS) death" - My answer "No" ... First of all no one knows the time of the Day of Judgement, secondly our hadith prevent this notion - they suggest many things will happen after Isa (AS) dies and thirdly your logical skills are poor. It is easy to deduce but I shall try to make it easier for you.

10 years ago Simon who lived in London and never lived anywhere else went missing. We are told by a time traveler that Simon talked to him when Simon was living in Paris and Simon told the time traveler that he also lived in Berlin for a while.

Logically if we believe the time traveler, we can conclude that at some point after Simon went missing he must have lived in Berlin before living Paris, but this is correct in the frame of reference to the time traveler. This will be rephrased if our time reference is 10 years ago ... which is Simon will soon go missing, some time after this he will live in Berlin before going to Paris to live where he will meet a time traveler.

Now we need to speak about our time reference. Now we have unknowns.

We know that Simon went missing 10 years ago for us, but we were not told by the time traveler what the date was when he spoke to Simon in Paris, therefore we can conclude that Simon must:

a) Either be living in Berlin now
b) Living in Paris now after having lived in Berlin
c) Is still yet to live in Berlin

ALL three can be true for our time reference.

Please bear with me ...

Now you talk about the word tawaffee:

I said that this word can be applied in the context of us being taken in death or us being taken literally or us being taken in sleep ... ALL 3 are correct linguistically.

The Qur'an uses terms that are often true on many levels ... so there is no exception here ...

My explanation is what I call a logical possibility, but by context it is the most probable one. So therefore when you say that I am in any way claiming that this word does NOT mean death now that would be a false allegation on me. I am admitting that it could mean "death now", but I am negating that as the probable meaning due to context that I have obtained from hadith, and other verses given by the reasoning of scholars.

Rather what I am asking you to admit that my array of possibility is acceptable to you. It is you who are denying my version, but rather I am saying your version is not the most suitable ... not because it doesn't suit my bias ... but because it does not fit with the vast majority of references regarding Isa (AS)'s return ... the fact that he (AS) will descend ... lead, kill Dajjal, all of which has not happened ... 7 years of peace ... etc ...

I am showing you that there is reason to believe that Isa (AS) has not had his death yet ... therefore the possible array of meanings that verse can take become eliminated ... not due to the linguistic possibility, but because of the context overruling that possibility from being likely.

Now ... coming back to my example ... above ... say I have a friend who visited Berlin for a year covering full knowledge of it and he saw neither sign of Simon nor any sign of him having lived in Berlin. Therefore we can eliminate a), we can eliminate b) and hence conclude that c) must be where we are in relation to the life of Simon. This is called logical deduction. Please become familiar with it !!!

By the way this conversation that Allah (SWT) has with Isa (AS) as per Surah Maida 116 and 117 has not happened yet ... it happens on the Day of Judgement ... The reason for the past tense is because of the nature of Qur'anic Arabic - You will see many places in the Qur'an where past tense is translated in present tense ... to reflect absolute truth statements, it is the nature of Arabic ... it will happen when those who transgressed against Allah (SWT) by fabricating about Isa (AS) are questioned and then he (AS) will be called as witness against them ...

However with Surah Al-Imran verse 55 ... that statement was indeed said at a time before the arrest - perhaps at the time when Isa (AS) was praying on the Olive grove ... but this statement "I will" does not necessarily mean "right away", "in a short time" or "for years to come" because it would be meaningless for us ... but for Isa (AS) we know that he would be saved from them so it has to be before the crucifixion and before the arrest.

In fact if you read the Bible the person who is arrested is questioned about if he is Isa (AS) and he denies it and says that "right now he is at the right side of God" ... that may be a fluke, but it fits !!! Later he whoever he is feels pressured in to accepting he is Jesus anyway ...

Now if Isa (AS) is taken from his time and space and put in to ours - through a Divine translation, he experiences no time difference, but the rest of the world does ... it moves many years through time before it gets to see Isa (AS) again. This is one possibility that I want you to understand.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

So what if that event is yet to take place. See what is being said. It is fairly simple to get to the point. Can you briefly tell me the understanding of fourth part of Jesus' answer to Allah. Why he said that 'I was witness over them .....'. what is the connection with the origional question of responsibility of practice of shirk among his people?
Before that part, he already had cleared himself of the responsibility of preaching shirk in fair amount of detail. 1) He couldn't have said anything to which he had no right 2)He preached only what he was asked by Allah 3) He preached praying/bowing to Allah alone. but he did miss out an important piece of evidence in his favor i.e., he(Jesus(as)) corrected their beliefs on his 2nd coming after they deviated from the right path. He missed this important fact but went on to say that 'As long as I was among them, I was witness over them but after Allah took him, only Allah was watcher over them'. From this answer, we can easily deduce that his people didn't go astray under his careful watch and he was not aware of it, only Allah knew since only He was the watcher in his absence. Since there is no doubt of practice of shirk by his followers, we can say beyound doubt that the event of 'Tawaffee' has happened already. So if Tawaffe = death then Jesus(as) has already died.

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psyah, i dont know what you're talking about..
You make religion seem like a sci fi movie.. your time travelling theory is an absurd idea... but anyway, thanks for your reply.

My logical skills make sense.. your logical skills are only acceptable to your mind.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr.Popat

No it is not science fiction - it is established science that time is connected to space and hence if you travel you bend time, travelling very fast will bend time even more, hence it is possible to tear a hole in the fabric of time.

Look a modern scientific perspective of the understanding of Verse 55 in Surah Aal-Imran from the term Rafa:

Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:55] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

**Innee Mutawaffeeka WaRaafi’ooka

**SubhanAllah - This means -{Indeed I will “take” you and “raise” you }… Raising - can be “promoting” and “promotion” can be undertaken on higher energy levels as well as being promoted in time.

In fact if we look at the term “rafa” there spiritual raising, physical raising, energy raising and raising in timeline … ALL of these apply simultaneously to realise the full impact of what is being talked about …

The Bible said “He Isa (AS) will return in the same way that he left as though he never left” on the Mount of Olives he prays so hard that he (AS) sweats, and in our hadith he appears with angels and his (AS) hair is wet althought it will not be wet … can this be a result of being promoted from one time to another? Science has proven that time can be interacted with and indeed Allah (SWT) is far superior to all that humans achieve and knowing that the Qur’an talks about the future and past as though it has already happened then we know that Allah (SWT) is indeed Most Powerful beyond imagination and you have very limited understanding of miracles and the might of what is supernatural.

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Peace kchughtai

1) He Isa (AS) did not say what he had no right to say ...

2) He appealed to the witness of Allah (SWT) that Allah had he (AS) said such a thing Allah (SWT) would know it.

3) He recognised that Allah (SWT) is able to inspect his inner intentions and he praises Allah (SWT) through his separation of him and Him, by stating that he is not Him - thus giving further evidence that he (AS) does not think himself divine in any way.

4) He Isa (AS) only preached what Allah (SWT) commanded of him (AS)

5) He Isa (AS) was witness that while he was with the people (He tried to make sure of that through asking his people how they understood him and corrected them when their understandings were wrong and they were often wrong even while he was amongst them, but he didn't fail in corrected them)

6) Again Isa (AS) makes a distinguishing statement between his abilities and that of Allah (SWT) where he (AS) uses the same word "witness" to mean - Seeing all things going on.

In terms of "while he was with the people" there is nothing in the text that resticts this "while" to a single visit - it can also mean "while he was with the people for each visit" ...

Also read the other ayat - which is that "none of the people of the book must believe in him (AS) before his (AS) death ..."

This suggests that Isa (AS)'s death will come at a time when all in his knowledge acknowledge him for what he truly is - a prophet of God, not a fake and not a son of a Deity.

This does not mean that the people will not again turn against his teachings ... We are bound to be given the rapture - and then the Day of Judgement will occur on the rest of mankind.