Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Mr. Popat and psyah,

Can I ask you guys to provide your view point on the following and how you understand it?

Refer to Surah Aal-e-Imran 3:46 and Maidah 5:110, it is mentioned in regards to Isa (AS) that he will talk to people in cradle as well as in 'kahla'. Kahla is often translated as "maturity" or "old age".

My questions to both of you are:

1) Why there was a need of using such a word by Allah (SWT)? Doesn't common sense suggest that everyone of us talk to people when we grow up?

2) What is the exact arabic dictionary meaning of the work "Kahla"? What's the root of it and in what reference is it used for attaining maturity?

3) I'm sure from various Christian and Islamic resources the approximate age of Isa (AS) is determined somewhere, do we know what was his age at the time of the event (his bodily ascension as believed by psyah or his death as believed by Mr. Popat)?

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*I did not say the event of Miraj did not happen. Neither did I say Prophet Muhammad PBUH did not see Lord. What I’m saying is that the journey was not physical. It was a total spiritual experience, the like of which no other prophet had witnessed before. That is all I’m saying. You keep sliding over the main topic. It’s not me. I’m waiting for you to bring me something from Quran which shows that a person can go to heaven alive. The reason of my response to Miraj for this topic of Isa(as) is to tell you that this event cannot be used as evidence from your side that Isa(as) is alive.

Quoted above are some ahadith, taken from Kutub ul sittah. You must have good reason to deny them, especially when Qur’an doesnt say it was physical but rather spiritual ( as the heart saw and not the eye ). Have a look at the second last hadith from Bukhari, where it is said that his eyes were sleeping but his heart was not, and that when he ‘woke up’ he was in ka’aba. Had it been a physical journey, there must have been many non believers who had witnessed it.. but we see none.

Syedna Ayesha (ra) differed because people were spreading falsehood. She did not deny the journey…nor am I. She says the journey was not physical. So am I.

Why should I admit that theres no way in Quran where His death is not mentioned. I provided you verses, my friend. Even one verse should be proof enough where the word tawaffee is used, and i gave you verses from Quran telling you what it meant in other cases. Read those again and then come up with something from Quran to refute my belief. If I get enough time today, I’ll post those verses again..but i’m sure you know which ones I’m talking about. ( I did write some verses in my previous post too , but I can do it again ). Meanwhile, please bring forward your arguments which you always say you have. I want to have a look at them.

Again, I did my part. I showed u verses which I think indicate His death. Now its your turn to bring forward your evidence. You have to show how its possible for a normal human to get to heaven, when such a thing has never happened at any point in Islamic history. Please save yourself some time in telling me your theories and speak from Quran. Thanks.

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Allah says :
5:46 And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel which contained guidance and light, fulfilling that which was revealedbefore it in the Torah, and a guidance and an admonition for the God-fearing.

Jesus(as) speaking words of wisdom in his childhood has nothing supernatural about it. May intelligent and well brought up children speak like that. It is all Allah's mercy...whomsoever He pleases, He bestows. Prophets are given nabuwat when they're MEN ( i.e when they are 40 or close to it ). Jesus(as) was given the knowledge of Torah and Gospel. Torah, before His prophethood. Gospel after his prophethood. He was a prophet sent to bani israel in the mooswi shariya. He was given knowledge of the true teachings of Torah which were changed. He was then given Gospel. That is all what he knows. It has always been like this. A new prophet would confirm and fulfill what an earlier prophet had said in His holy book and give glad tiding for a prophet AFTER him. An old prophet does not come back to confirm the teaching of what the newer prophet has been given. Jesus foretold about Ahmad (MuhammadPBUH), and Muhammad PBUH came, confirming what was in Bible, telling it to be the word of God, and then bringing new shariyah. Jesus(as) did not say He'll come back after him. Quran is pure from this.

The word 'kahl' means, one of middle age or of the age when one's hair becomes intermixed with hoariness..or it means one who is between 30 to around 51, or between 40 to 51 (Lane & Tha'labi).

He(as) spoke to people when he grew up. But its merely a mercy of Allah to have given Jesus(as) the ability to speak wisdom since he was little. Shows the non believers that he will be truthful even after getting his prophethood in his latter life.

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Psyah, can you please translate the following line into English (from Urdu):

"Saleem jumay ko school jaaye ga"

Someone told me it means "Saleem will go to school on Tuesday." Can you please verify if it's correct?

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Dear The jinx, as I see it not only the quran but all divine scriptures were misinterpreted and misrepresented by religious leaders on behest of their rulers so that their path is clear for them to use and abuse their own people as well as others.

To understand the quran properly in its own context one has no choice but to accept it is a revelation of God for peaceful revolution for creating peace between mankind on the basis of terns and conditions stated in the quran. This book is divine manifesto for peace that must be spread far and wide so that people come together and organise themselves on basis of the quran as their constitution. Since even muslim do not accept the quran in this context so we can keep arguing and disagreeing about each and everything the quran says because when one leaves proper quranic framework that helps make the head and tail of the quran one is only and only left in confusion.

The stories told in the quran are not as we have been told by mullahs but rather much different. The quran is not at all about miracles of the prophets, it is a miracle in itself. The issues the quran discusses the way it puts them acros all is impossible for a human to do 1500 years back. I mean even when we have to write a serious letter we empty the whole writing pad and still do not know how to write a good letter even today. So how did someone managed to write the quran without any mistakes discussing all serious issues that matter for mankind?

The story of jesus as told by mullahs is invention by jews and christian borrowed by muslims likewise with very little change. The real story of jesus does not involve birth without father or death on cross or change of shape of someone else in to shape of jesus.

In real stories of the quran some words are used as meaningful words rather than as proper names of people or places or things etc. Likewise some words are used to show stand points rather than creedal beliefs and dogmas or doctrines. Islam is all about making commitment to the cause of movement for peace and carrying it out faithfully. It is all about trying to educate people and thereby change their mindset and attitude to humanity in the name of God for the better end result than what people at any given time were stuck in and therefore were going through terrible painful suffering.

In time of jesus jews were in terrible mess or state of affairs. They were taken over by romans as a nations and their mullahs were destroying their community by turning their divine constitution into religious holy book and making their community religious thereby on one hand they gave free hand to foreign rulers to use and abuse their people the while they themselves invented some personal laws and used them to use and abuse their own people themselves. This is why prophets had problems with their jewish religious leadership. Even moses has to given up on them after bringing them out of egypt. All nations on the face of the earth were always used and abused by imperialism, by economic control and by priestly classes. Any reformer always had to take on these powers head on and if one was able to defeat them to some degree at least if not in total that one could succeed in starting anew. For example, noah did not succeed against his chiefs and priests fully, so instead he succeeded in moving away from them to start a new life along those who supported his program for them. Moses could not fully defeat pharaoh but he succeeded taking his people away from him to give them a new start somewhere else. However after moses took them away to give a new start they began fighting with moses and so when his time came to go he left them wandering about as they desired. He was able to fight with pharaoh for them but could not make them support him. It shows that when a people stop listening to right concept of message you cannot do anything with them or for them.

The same is happening amongst muslims today ie they have been taken over by mullahs and do not want to leave their following so the quran has to wait till they decide to follow it. This may happen only once mullahs become completely cornered by problems of their followers and their followers clearly see that now their mullahs are 100% stuck and so they leave them and look for some other guide to follow.

regards and all the best.

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Peace Mr.Popat

The Hadith you have given regarding the body of Muhammad (SAW) remaining where it was does not contradict the idea of an actual, real Ascension. You are merely casting your limited view on the scenario. I’ve already stated that he (SAW) went and returned as if not second had passed, but for him, much time had passed.

Now the idea of a spiritual Ascension has been put in to play by the Mu’tazilis many years back. However, consensus is on the reverse.

http://www.central-mosque.com/quran/isramiraj.htm

It appears as thugh you have not seen my previous response to this.

Now please agree that the Qu’ran does not state Isa (AS) has died … Or show the actual verse that says he (AS) has died.

No indicate death is not good enough …

His Death in past tense

That is what I’m looking for … You show me it I’ll apologise to you.

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Peace brahmachari99

Please tell me the name of the person who told you it means that. Meaning is not obtained from translation, even if it is translated properly.

Of course "jummah" means Friday.

However, another translation could be, "Saleem will go to the " Jummay ko" school."

Here the school's name could be " Jummay ko" .

Or it could be "Saleem will go to school on Friday" in which case the listener needs to make an assumption ...

Will Saleem start going to school on Friday? Or Will Saleem only go to school on Friday and not thereafter?

Also, we need to work out when this statement was said, because if it was said last year, then perhaps Saleem has already gone to school on the Friday straight after, but there is no cause to believe that the sentence means necessarily "next Friday" , also, the statement could be about what is yet to happen, but it does not actually happen that way ... In which case if it is said for the future, then it means "Saleem's intention is to go to school on Friday".

Which Friday are we talking about? And can it be determined from the language used that a specific Friday is being talked about? No ... We can't ...

So I would need to get more information before I can tell you what it means, but I sure can translate it to you.

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Peace Jinx

Beginning of maturity after shabab is around 40 years plus. Kahla, linguistically means the start of the decline ... It is linked to words that mean upper part of back, and withering ... In age terms middle-aged which is around 50 years.

According to references Isa(as) was not seen ever past the age of 33 years.

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So since you couldnt deny hadith, you are not saying this to satisfy yourself? How does it not contradict? If muhammad PBUH body remained where it was then how do you explain this to have been a physical journey? Anyway, this is not the actual topic. This topic was brought by Jinx, in his favor that Isa(as) is on skies. But this topic is different and again, cant be used as a point to show Jesus(as) ascension.

I have said it countless times. The burden of the proof lies on your shoulders. I have shown you verses from which it shows Isa(as) died. Please dont tell me you cant think of any one verse. Please dont let my hard work go wasted. Quran does say that no human being has the capability of going to heavens alive. Quran does also say that all prophets before Muhammad PBUH have passed away. Then we see verse where the use of tawaffee is mentioned, which we discussed means taking up nothing but soul. Then the verse about Jesus(as) being witness over them as long as He was among them. Then we have Hadith confirming what that verse means when Muhammad PBUH said "… i will say exactly what Jesus (as) said .. that when you gave me death, you were witness over them " . What else do you want ? You know very well that all you have tried doing so far is to come up with your theories about how Quran does not contradict the belief you hold, but not even once were you able to tell me from Quran why you claim that ?

Despite not having to show you proof , I still did. Given that death is by default. But I have not seen anything from your side to show me when has this been possible for any human being to have gone to heavens bodily alive?

According to Islamic belief, there were many many prophets sent by Allah.. and yet only around 25/26 prophets are mentioned in Quran ( and even for all of these prophets, Allah does not specifically said they were dead ) . Do you take every prophet NOT mentioned in Quran to be alive ?

Since your argument work like this >> if someone’s death is not shown to you from Quran >> they are alive.
This is what I expect from you >>> if something out of extraordinary has happened, show me the proof.
This is what I think >>>>>>>>>>>> Death is by default. You show me where Allah said he was taken to heavens bodily alive.

I showed you verses. You will not believe because you are afraid what the majority will say. Keep on believing whatever you like. Heres a bit of a humble request to you. Dont make Islam to be a science fiction religion. Whoever is born in this world , time runs for every single one exactly the same way. Be it us or saints or messengers. Time does not stop for anyone. Please dont attribute beliefs to Islam that has no evidence to back up. Islam is a very straight forward religion. It is the beliefs that some people have told us to be part of faith that is creating the distances…beliefs which does not have any bases to believe.

I dont need no apology from you. My intention is to get the true message of Islam across and pray for you. Indeed it is Allah alone who will guide anyone to the straight path. May Allah take away the fear of majority out of your heart in accepting the truth.

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Why? It was you who said quote, "the Qur'an states that Isa(as) has died" ... It does not say that ... It is something you have gathered from various places and opinions. For sure it does not state that.

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Well, my understanding also was that "jummah" means "Friday", and I told that to him. He kept insisting that Jummah might mean Friday when it refers to Zaid, Bakar, Saeed, and everybody else, but when it comes to Saleem, Jummah means Tuesday. The onus is on us to prove that when it in the case of Saleem, Jummah doesn't mean Tuesday, but Friday.

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[QUOTE]
Why? It was you who said quote, "the Qur'an states that Isa(as) has died" ... It does not say that ... It is something you have gathered from various places and opinions. For sure it does not state that.
[/QUOTE]

yep!. To someone whose beliefs are not based on what the majority is believing (without any evidence), the evidence provided to you should be enough to know he died. I said , one of the verse is crystal clear about his death>> where the word tawaffee is used.

Why dont you help me see where in Quran does it say He went to heavens alive ? For once, let me see it from your side too. Your assumption that he is still alive is not coming from Quran... then where is it coming from? Majority ?

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Very well as per your belief there is no other mention of taken oneself as whole. Also there is no other mentioned too that Jesus a.s. died a natural death. To prove that He a.s. died natural death, you provided these so many verses (still there are many more) to prove that He a.s. died natural death, although none of these verses precisely says about death of Him (directly).[INDENT=4]
2:234, 3:193, 12:101, 5:117, 3:144, 25:21, 5:75, 21:34, 77:25-26,17:94, 36:68, 30:54, 33:63, 16:20-21, 2:115, 5:75, 4:78, 19:57, 7:175-176, 24:36 ,58:12, 3:65, 61:7, 37:84, 4:15, 8:50

Also You said: Quran doesn't really say all the prophets mentioned in Quran are dead , and yet you believe them all to be dead.

You said: We both are on the same page, but where we differ, is that Jesus(as), a prophet sent to bani israel is no longer alive and the prophet foretold to come after Muhammad PBUH will be from Muslim Ummah and not a prophet which was sent to bani israel. Thats all.

You said: No where is it written that an old prophet can come and the new cannot. Provide me one verse where your this belief hold truth, that it is OK for a previous prophet to come, but not ok if a prophet is born to muslim ummah.

Lastly, You said: I do believe Muhammad PBUH to be the khaaman nabiyeen, the seal of the prophets.

.[/INDENT]
So for newer commer, it is necessary to prove older (Hazrat Isa a.s.) dead, declare whenever required 'I do believe in the seal of the prophets', and by picking any Quranic verse which serve your purpose (POV) no matter if all turned upside downs even.

Sorry to say that I am done here.

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I’ve noticed Ahmadis bring the issue of Isa (AS) again and again in any thread started by Muslims (sunnis and shia)…I think this needs to stop. If we can’t talk about Mirza Ghulam Ahmed or Ahmadi aqeedah then they shouldn’t be allowed to preach their aqeedah in our threads.

Just a suggestion. :flower2:

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^if muslims are as broad as your list above, i cant see why qadianis are not included

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i agree with ur post…

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Someone said something similar before. Take a look who started these threads. If you guys don’t want to talk about these topics then don’t open threads on these topics. I think religion section is not limited to ‘sarkari’ muslims only. All including agnostics are allowed to express their thoughts. Discussion on ahmadi topics was banned for one reason: People get quickly de-tracked and resorted to insulting behavior instead of contributing positively to the threads

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no muslim believe about isa alehi salams death........
and you do not have any right to attack belief of majority without your beliefs being challenged........

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^ It is a big LIE that no muslim believes/ever believed that Isa has died. Believing in death of Isa(as) will not make you a kafir or a non-muslim neither believing in his life makes you a better muslim.
The belief of living Isa(as) is certainly the belief of majority but it is also a big lie to say that there is a consensus on this belief throughout the history.
We are not attacking anyone's faith. we are presenting our side. If you think we are attacking then what do you think you guys are doing?

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when you develop a new idea and try to spread it…and question the well establish beliefs of the masses that is called attack…

ya we always have dajjals in islam right after death of prophet Muhammad:saw2: spreading lies if we consider them muslim then we dont have consensus about death of Isa Bin mariam (alehi salam)…