Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
^ That's a very good point. Religion was akin to nationalism in the past, which is not the case today. We don't have Caliphates and Christiandom is history. I think Muslims should try to focus on the Quran, and view the hadiths with proper context, i.e. the times in which they were written.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
Pagans live in a secular country. That gives the pious unfettered license to insult their Gods. Pagans have no right to feel offended. They shouldn’t have filed cases against the pious painter in Courts, because of which the painter had to flee the country. Those who did, are “fanatics”.
And BTW, by their very definition the pious brook no insult to their religious sensibilities. If anybody does, than we shouldn’t be surprised if he is struck by righteous wrath.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
Oh BTW, if I repeatedly post something offensive about Prophet Muhammad [PBUH], and my account banned, does that imply that this forum is infested with Muslim fanatics ? 
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
1- What do you mean by honest and unbiased?
It appears, that your bias is making you deny or question the presence of Hindu fanatics in India who despite the alleged lack of blasphemy concept were irritated by MFH.
No offrnce. You call me biased. I have nonproblem with that. Your statement that I have questioned presence of Hindu fanatics is now a clear example of your dishonesty. My post 56 clearly backsthis up.
I have no choice but to conclude that in this specific instance you are being BOTH dishonest and biased. I asked you why did you jump to the conclusion I wax implying there are no Hindu fanatics in India. You turn that around and accuse me of stating there are no Hindu fanatics in India. That is unethical AND dishonest. In this same thread I have called Modi a right wing nut who deserved punishment.
It was a mistake to get into a " debate" with you. Wont happen again.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
"I hope this is enough for you to at least acknowledge that I'm not making this stuff up ... there are many more references and the more you read up on this topic you will begin to see that indeed "intolerance towards Muslims leaving Islam" is present and documented. Of course you are in your freedom to disagree with my stance, but please give me this much that I indeed have a basis."
Peace psyah, Indeed you are not making this up. "intolerance towards Muslims leaving Islam" is indeed a part of traditional Islam. But the point is that , for muslims, traditional Islam should not be beyond criticism using the same sources from which it derives its own conclusions. None of the Quranic verses you cited are conclusive proof. And the hadith you cited can be countered by several ahadith where the Prophet let people opt out of Islam. In fact, in the link I quoted earlier, over 100 Islamic scholars have differed from the mainstream traditional position using strict Quranic and hadith-based arguments. And, this disagreement goes back centuries. Also, much of the traditional scholars associated apostasy with treason, which is highly questionable, especially in the present context.
Ulitamately, religion cannot even be possible unless certain self-evident facts about human nature are accepted. Human free will is one such pre-requisite. It is implicit in the very act of communication. Act of becoming a muslim cannot involve surrender of free-will because a muslim does not cease to be a human. Faith is utterly meaningless if it under compulsion. It is an insult to God Almighty to suggest that He would compel us to profess faith against our free-will after having granted us free-will in the first place.
Peace krash
The only statement that I found somewhat interesting was the one where you said the part that I highlighted above.
It is because your link provides a basis for NOT killing the apostate, but my argument throughout this thread is about resisting apostasy ... It has never been in favour of killing the apostate ...
I really would like to see what you consider mainstream position and how many examples of apostasy sentences you can cite from Islamic history.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
We seem to be going in circles here. So, let me summarize.
We both seem to agree that,
1. Killing of Apostates is NOT allowed.
2. Islamic society should discourage apostasy among its members.
However, the disagreement seems to be on the details of point #2.
I am saying that this discouragement should not involve any coercion, only peaceful persuasion, and maximum punishment should be ostracism.
You, on the other hand, seem to argue for some sort of physical restraint and punishment. I am especially referring to your post #16, where you say,
*"If she influences other to convert then it is more serious and she should be put on trial to swear an oath to remain silent in her faith
She should be given the option to leave the country if she wants to converts others
If she continues to undermine the country and Islam by spreading either hatred falsehood about Islam and/or her new faith, then that would be treason ... And treason is usually met with a death penalty, by the courts alone"
*
I also believe that arguments that are presented against killing of apostates are also valid against any level of physical coercion because they ultimately appeal to God-given free will in humans. They reason they mention killing is because that is the position they were confronting.
Lastly, I would like to ask you a simple question.
Would you support a law in any country of the world today that criminalizes apostasy?
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
No offrnce. You call me biased. I have nonproblem with that. Your statement that I have questioned presence of Hindu fanatics is now a clear example of your dishonesty. My post 56 clearly backsthis up.
I have no choice but to conclude that in this specific instance you are being BOTH dishonest and biased. I asked you why did you jump to the conclusion I wax implying there are no Hindu fanatics in India. You turn that around and accuse me of stating there are no Hindu fanatics in India. That is unethical AND dishonest. In this same thread I have called Modi a right wing nut who deserved punishment.
It was a mistake to get into a " debate" with you. Wont happen again.
No offense taken so no need to repeat. :)
Your post # 46 here:
Lot of us condemn Modi. Unfortunately justice was not done in his case. Fact remains that India does not have blasphemy laws. *So IMO situation bit different. *
....
Then your post #53:
Thank you for the correction. I was not aware of this law dating back to 1860 protecting ALL religions. Unbiased and honest folks would readily realize that this law does not just protect the faith of the majority. ..... .......
So first you based Modi not being punished on "lack of blasphemy law". Why made a 'factual' statement when it was not?
When corrected, you brought unbiased and honest folks discussion and said since there is no blasphemy in Hinduism (there is no Hindu fanaticism) and Indian blasphemy laws only protect minorities since they have this concept, not Hinduism.
What I said that it does not matter if blasphemy concept is there or not, fanaticism is what makes the difference in the end. And I gave you example of MFH to make a point. (Not that I support his art)
There was no need to find 'reason' for Modi not being punished to begin with (post 46) when you said earlier he should have been punished.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
We seem to be going in circles here. So, let me summarize.
We both seem to agree that, 1. Killing of Apostates is NOT allowed. 2. Islamic society should discourage apostasy among its members.
However, the disagreement seems to be on the details of point #2. I am saying that this discouragement should not involve any coercion, only peaceful persuasion, and maximum punishment should be ostracism.
You, on the other hand, seem to argue for some sort of physical restraint and punishment. I am especially referring to your post #16, where you say,
*"If she influences other to convert then it is more serious and she should be put on trial to swear an oath to remain silent in her faith She should be given the option to leave the country if she wants to converts others If she continues to undermine the country and Islam by spreading either hatred falsehood about Islam and/or her new faith, then that would be treason ... And treason is usually met with a death penalty, by the courts alone" * I also believe that arguments that are presented against killing of apostates are also valid against any level of physical coercion because they ultimately appeal to God-given free will in humans. They reason they mention killing is because that is the position they were confronting.
Lastly, I would like to ask you a simple question. Would you support a law in any country of the world today that criminalizes apostasy?
Peace krash
So we are in agreement that we are both arguing against the idea of "killing of apostates". The link you provided has many references supporting the idea of resisting apostasy however ...
That is what I am arguing for ... Only when that apostasy turns into something more sinister such as undermining of the religion then it should be taken more seriously and treated like a case of treason.
Now the severity of the discouragment is under the microscope ... and this is where I need to further explain things ...
A family may ostracise their loved one if the loved one changes faith. And if the faith is secure with the person then it should not matter to the person about how their family treats them. If a person becomes Muslim they are encouraged to treat their non-Muslim parents and siblings with respect and honour even if they have been disowned by them. The reverse may or may not be the case, but I'm sure there are individual cases where mutual respect does take place.
No if all of this is done discretely then there is no reason to raise a hoo haa over it, but if it becomes public knowledge then it will cause "fitnah" and to mitigate this a judicial process has to be undertaken. Finding the reasons of conversion and giving the opportunity to convert back should be offered. The death penalty acts as a means to ward people away from trying to compromise the Islamic framework. If people are given permission to freely criticise Islam then other people who feel hard done by this will resort to bloodshed, because they will have their values compromised. And it is far worse to have fassad from an openly critical society than it is to have a conservative society that prevents such things at the source.
The death penalty maintains "peace" in most instances ... It sounds weird but that is the case. If you ask the majority of UK citizens they want to reintroduce capital punishment, they believe we are tipping to much towards leniency and have started to make things harder on the law abiders. Funny Islam was criticised for being too liberal by ultra-conservatives and too conservative by ultra-liberals ...
The fact is ... it is Divinely perfect ... where it displeases both the ultra varieties but optimises the conditions for all ...
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
[QUOTE]
No if all of this is done discretely then there is no reason to raise a hoo haa over it, but if it becomes public knowledge then it will cause "fitnah" and to mitigate this a judicial process has to be undertaken. Finding the reasons of conversion and giving the opportunity to convert back should be offered. The death penalty acts as a means to ward people away from trying to compromise the Islamic framework. If people are given permission to freely criticise Islam then other people who feel hard done by this will resort to bloodshed, because they will have their values compromised. And it is far worse to have fassad from an openly critical society than it is to have a conservative society that prevents such things at the source.
[/QUOTE]
So say a man born to Muslims decides that Islam is not the true path, he goes to his place of work and explains why Mohammed is not a true prophet. Now there are many many Muslims around the world who find that blaspemous and would want to punish the man, imprison him and execute him, is that Islamic???
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
psyah,
You need to be more clear in your discourse! In the same post you first say that you are arguing against the death penalty for apostates and then go on to provide a defense of death penalty for the sake of keeping the peace!
"Only when that apostasy turns into something more sinister such as undermining of the religion then it should be taken more seriously and treated like a case of treason."
What is undermining of religion? Why should it be considered treason? Why would it require physical puishment? Why can't speech be countered with speech?
Do we have no arguments against someone who is publicly questioning our religion? Do we have to shut them up with force?
" If people are given permission to freely criticise Islam then other people who feel hard done by this will resort to bloodshed, because they will have their values compromised"
Shouldn't we then punish people who resort to bloodshed? Is it acceptable behaviour for muslims to resort to bloodshed if their religion is freely criticized?
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
So say a man born to Muslims decides that Islam is not the true path, he goes to his place of work and explains why Mohammed is not a true prophet. Now there are many many Muslims around the world who find that blaspemous and would want to punish the man, imprison him and execute him, is that Islamic???
Peace sanjsingh
Desiring another human to be killed even for valid reasons is unIslamic. All Muslims need to ignore things like blasphemy and apostasy claims, stay away from people who do this, unless and/or until the person doing it is "in your face" ... In which case they arrest the person and take them to court. If the person recants or denies the allegations he/she is set free, because the idea is that the person needs to declare their faith openly and persists and insists in sewing discord to for the case to be taken further.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
Peace sanjsingh
Desiring another human to be killed even for valid reasons is unIslamic. All Muslims need to ignore things like blasphemy and apostasy claims, stay away from people who do this, unless and/or until the person doing it is "in your face" ... In which case they arrest the person and take them to court. If the person recants or denies the allegations he/she is set free, because the idea is that the person needs to declare their faith openly and persists and insists in sewing discord to for the case to be taken further.
So they should not be harmed if they're quiet, just ostracized? Does that seem civil to you? And who decides what is "in your face"?
Not being able to stand someone questioning your religion is called being an extremist.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
Just an observation here that two different discussions are going on this thread.
1- Blasphemy
2- Apostasy.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
The issues of apostasy and blasphemy should not be amalgamated.
I am a bit confused about terms 'going public' of the apostate person. what does it mean specifically?
does it mean being open about his change of faith and not hiding it irrespective of whether he is publicly critical of his former faith or not
OR
it means being openly insulting/abusive/provocative in other words being blasphemous?
Also what about apostates in secular /non-muslim countries like UK? in those societies, ostracizing that person or perhaps suing him if he insults. you have to abide by the law of the land
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
Islam is not at all against its critical study instead it want people to examine it and see if it is really worth following. However, there is big difference between arguing a case and throwing abuse at each other.
Islam too is very critical of what others propose giving its own reason for their claims being false. In other words islam presents its case before mankind and tells them why they must follow islam and also why they should leave all else alone. They are told to see if it makes sense and if not why not?
So blasphemy law is not about critical examination of islam but abusing each other instead of trying to figure out the truth of the matter with all due sincerity.
Islam wants people to be thinking human beings not sheep.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
Has the issue of apostasy been discussed in Quran? Yes in many verses.
2:218) "…And whoso from among you turns back from his faith and dies while he is a disbeliever, it is they whose works shall be vain in this world and the next. These are the inmates of the Fire and therein shall they abide."
*3:73)And a section of the People of the Book say, "Believe in that which has been revealed unto the believers, in the early part of day, and disbelieve in the latter part thereof; perchance they may return"
*
How was this possible that the People of the Book could suggest to their own brothers to believe in the Holy Qur’an in the morning and then to commit apostasy in the evening? At that time, the Islamic State was firmly established and the People of the Book were fully subjugated. If they knew the prescribed punishment for the act of apostasy, then they could never dare suggest this behavior to their companions.
**
3:87-90) "How shall Allah guide a people who have disbelieved after believing and who had borne witness that the Messenger was true and to whom clear proofs had come? And Allah guides not the wrongdoing people."**
"Of such the reward is that on them shall be the curse of Allah and of angels and of men, all together." They shall abide thereunder. Their punishment shall not be lightened nor shall they be reprieved; except those who repent thereafter and amend. And surely (they shall find that) Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful
**
3:91-92) "Surely, those who disbelieve after they have believed and then increase in disbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted. and these are they who have gone astray. As for those who have disbelieved, and die while they are disbelievers,there shall not be accepted from anyone of them even the earthful of Gold, though he offer it in ransom. It is these for whom shall be a grievous punishment, and they shall have no helpers**
3:150) "O ye who believe! if you obey those who have disbelieved, they will cause you to turn back on your heels, and you will become losers."
In the above verses, Allah has shown His displeasure towards Apostates but nowhere punishment by state is prescribed to deter them from leaving. Allah deals with such people Himself.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
^why have you not posted the earlier part of verse Al-Baqarah 217? did you feel it wasnt relevent?
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
Has the issue of apostasy been discussed in Quran? Yes in many verses.
2:218) "…And whoso from among you turns back from his faith and dies while he is a disbeliever, it is they whose works shall be vain in this world and the next. These are the inmates of the Fire and therein shall they abide."
*3:73)And a section of the People of the Book say, "Believe in that which has been revealed unto the believers, in the early part of day, and disbelieve in the latter part thereof; perchance they may return" *
How was this possible that the People of the Book could suggest to their own brothers to believe in the Holy Qur’an in the morning and then to commit apostasy in the evening? At that time, the Islamic State was firmly established and the People of the Book were fully subjugated. If they knew the prescribed punishment for the act of apostasy, then they could never dare suggest this behavior to their companions. ** 3:87-90) "How shall Allah guide a people who have disbelieved after believing and who had borne witness that the Messenger was true and to whom clear proofs had come? And Allah guides not the wrongdoing people."** "Of such the reward is that on them shall be the curse of Allah and of angels and of men, all together." They shall abide thereunder. Their punishment shall not be lightened nor shall they be reprieved; except those who repent thereafter and amend. And surely (they shall find that) Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful ** 3:91-92) "Surely, those who disbelieve after they have believed and then increase in disbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted. and these are they who have gone astray. As for those who have disbelieved, and die while they are disbelievers,there shall not be accepted from anyone of them even the earthful of Gold, though he offer it in ransom. It is these for whom shall be a grievous punishment, and they shall have no helpers**
3:150) "O ye who believe! if you obey those who have disbelieved, they will cause you to turn back on your heels, and you will become losers."
In the above verses, Allah has shown His displeasure towards Apostates but nowhere punishment by state is prescribed to deter them from leaving. Allah deals with such people Himself.
Peace kchughtai
What do the hadith say? What has Islamic history done? How is it all contextualised? We cannot ignore the scriptures.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
Islam is not at all against its critical study instead it want people to examine it and see if it is really worth following. However, there is big difference between arguing a case and throwing abuse at each other.
Islam too is very critical of what others propose giving its own reason for their claims being false. In other words islam presents its case before mankind and tells them why they must follow islam and also why they should leave all else alone. They are told to see if it makes sense and if not why not?
So blasphemy law is not about critical examination of islam but abusing each other instead of trying to figure out the truth of the matter with all due sincerity.
Islam wants people to be thinking human beings not sheep.
Exactly. It's up to the person to decide. And the Quran doesn't actually mention any specific punishments for apostasy. I personally think hadiths should be ignored or used very selectively because they were written in a different time. Society has changed.
Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?
^why have you not posted the earlier part of verse Al-Baqarah 217? did you feel it wasnt relevent?
please be my guest and post it if it is relevant. thx