Hatred and Islam

Wow … I go out for a business dinner and when I get back there are so many points to answer.

I’ll quote and reply, post by post.

Faisal, such literalist interpretations, ignoring context, and ignoring other Quranic verses and hadith that define limits for military action, have been around for a long time, and have always been rejected by the mainstream religious authorities. A good example of this is the Khawarij, who were declared heretical for it by none other than Khalifa and Ameer-ul-Muslimeen Hazrat Ali ibn Abu Talib himself.

As I said, their crime in on par with adultery, and your emotions towards them should be exactly the same as towards adulterers.

The hadith in my signature is guidance for Muslim society, rather than individuals. It is not for armughal to go around junting and killing those who commit the sin that Lot’s people commited; rather, it is the duty for Muslim society’s to form courts to try such people in accordance with the laws that God has laid down, and to establish their innocense or guilt in such courts.

&

Indeed the Quran is timeless. But the Quran was also one of the means of communication by God directly to the Muslim community atthe time, to address their issues. You can see this in verse 187 of the second surah of the Quran, where God informs the Muslims that He knows they’ve been having sex at night during Ramadan even though they are not supposed to, and therefore in His mercy he’s making it lawful for Muslims to do so.

This verse is clearly targetted only at the Muslims of that particular time, since it was only they who were forbidden to have sex at all during Ramadan.

The verse on the killing of non-believers is a similar instruction, targetted only at Muslims at one point in time who were going through one particular conflict. The volume of Quaric ayats and hadiths that limit what can be done to non-believers leaves no other real possibility for interpretations - antiobl has posted some of the ayats.

Cool. Fortunately, I’m “mAd_ScIeNtIsT”, not “Mad_Scientist” :hula:

If I posted the Hadith that said murderers should be executed, would I be accused of insulting murderers? Would I be accuse of not making it clear that murderers should be tried to ascertain their innocense of guilt before execution?

Well, God’s words in th Quran, chapter 59, verse 7, are that And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment

So the logic that follows is that if Muhammed (pbuh) gave an instruction, then God wants us to follow it. So if a man (named Abu-Dawud Sulaiman bin Al-Aash’ath Al-Azdi as-Sijistani, who lived in the 9th Century AD) who’s competence and reliability has not been proven to be questionable, did some research and found multiple sources corroborating that Abdullah ibn Abbas (may God be pleased with him, a companion of the Prophet (pbuh)) heard the Prophet (pbuh) say that the sin of Lot’s people deserved death, then the command must be treated as God’s will.

To the best of my knowledge, he had to deal with no cases of it. However, it is clear from the Sunnah that he left behind guidance on how to deal with those found guilty of such acts.

Some of us have directors of $150bn American multinationals to take out to dinner sometimes - cut me some slack! I can’t be expected to post on GS ALL the time :rolleyes:

We’re not all lazy med student bums :mocking:

I see people are missing Matsui and co.

Its a shame such ignorance is apparent. Has anybody here read what the Bible and Torah have to say about war and how to treat others? We are nothing compared to what is written in these texts.

Agreed Nescio. It should be taken in context. But the context of your post is sarcasm and stupidity. Just irrelevant to the whole discussion.

If you think Islam is about hatred. I guess you forget the Crusades, Inqusition etc etc. If it was about hatred how come Jews moved away from Europe to live in Muslim lands? Now that is a historical fact.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
Indeed the Quran is timeless. But the Quran was also one of the means of communication by God directly to the Muslim community atthe time, to address their issues. You can see this in verse 187 of the second surah of the Quran, where God informs the Muslims that He knows they've been having sex at night during Ramadan even though they are not supposed to, and therefore in His mercy he's making it lawful for Muslims to do so.

This verse is clearly targetted only at the Muslims of that particular time, since it was only they who were forbidden to have sex at all during Ramadan.
[/QUOTE]
The verse may be addressing specific people in that situation but the ruling is timeless. So just as it is incorrect to say that only some specific muslims of that time are permitted to have sex at night during Ramazan, similarly it is incorrect to assume that the order "to slay" is limited only to some specific muslims at a specified time. Unless you have a better explanation. Yes, the reasons why you would indulge in 'slaying' are clearly mentioned, and any time muslims are faced with such situation, the order becomes effective. Till eternity.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
The verse may be addressing specific people in that situation but the ruling is timeless. So just as it is incorrect to say that only some specific muslims of that time are permitted to have sex at night during Ramazan, similarly it is incorrect to assume that the order "to slay" is limited only to some specific muslims at a specified time. Unless you have a better explanation. Yes, the reasons why you would indulge in 'slaying' are clearly mentioned, and any time muslims are faced with such situation, the order becomes effective. Till eternity.
[/QUOTE]

Very well, since you will not relent, I'll illustrate the fallacy of your reasoning further.

If the meaning of the verse is to legitimise the killing of non-believers "wherever they are" when their nation opposes the Muslims, rather than legitimising the killing of those non-believers engaging in hostility against the Muslims, then it would fail to fall into accordance with the 8th verse of the 60th chapter of the Quran.

*Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. *

The only interpretation of 2:191 and 60:8 that would not contradict either verse is that Muslims are obligated to fight those disbelieving individuals who are fighting against Muslims out of opposition to Islam, and against those who are ethnically cleansing Muslim populated areas.

If such an interpretation is applied, then it is clear that 2:191 does indeed apply to a particular circumstance rather than provide general licence for killing non-muslims.

The first thing we were trying to understand is whether that ayat applies in the current time. I assume you now agree it does, cz, naturally, Quran is timeless.

Now we come to the actual meat of the issue. Under what conditions are a muslims ordered to 'slay' non-believers. I believe that is where your post comes into play. By the way, I never said we kill non-believers "when their nation opposes the Muslims". That was you putting words in someone's mouth :p I didn't even discuss yet, the conditions when the 'slaying' is permitted.

Ok, lets see your post

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
The only interpretation of 2:191 and 60:8 that would not contradict either verse is that Muslims are obligated to fight those disbelieving individuals who are fighting against Muslims out of opposition to Islam, and against those who are ethnically cleansing Muslim populated areas.

If such an interpretation is applied, then it is clear that 2:191 does indeed apply to a particular circumstance rather than provide general licence for killing non-muslims.
[/QUOTE]
No one is saying that there is a general license for killing non-muslims (unless you wanna say it). However, there are specific conditions under which 'slaying non-believers' is permitted and those are... (according to you)... "out of opposition to Islam, and against those who are ethnically cleansing Muslim populated areas". Before we go further, do confirm.. if this is what you really are saying and believe in.

Thx :)

muhamed knew there are other religens in india and china since population of india and china were huge and there is clear
avoidance of seeking enemity of people .

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
The first thing we were trying to understand is whether that ayat applies in the current time. I assume you now agree it does, cz, naturally, Quran is timeless.
[/QUOTE]

If you want to deal with the issue of whether the ayat applies in the current time, that is very much a matter of perspective.

If you believe, as many militant Sunni groups and some Shia groups such as the Mahdi army, that the USA's war is against Islam, then yes there are a number of Quranic ayats, including both the ones I posted above, which can be interpreted as legitimising attacks on US military forces and those directing them. Indeed, thse are some of the very verses invoked to justify military action against the US.

If you don't believe (and Ayatollahs Ali Al-Sistani and Bashir Al-Najafi are examples) that the USA's war is against Islam, then the very same verses would not legitimise attacks on the USA's military forces and those directing them.

Well, in all honesty, its not a matter of what I believe, because clearly I am just trying to learn here as to what is the meaning of the ayat and what are different interpretations of this order are and what is the evidence to back either claims. Once the whole thing makes some sense then I can say what I believe in.

So, what you are saying is that if someone believes that US and Israel have infact declared an implied war against muslims by constantly targetting them and attacking them each day and killing tens of thousands of them in recent years.. that for them the rule 'slay (non-believers) whereever ye find them' is applicable. If, on the other hand, someone believes that US' actions are focussed solely on Saddam and some terrorists and there are no grand plans to persecute muslims in Iraq and elsewhere, that the conditions of 2:190-191 are not met, hence US military is not a fair target for attack by muslims.

Is that what you are saying?

[quote]
Well, God's words in th Quran, chapter 59, verse 7, are that And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment

So the logic that follows is that if Muhammed (pbuh) gave an instruction, then God wants us to follow it. So if a man (named Abu-Dawud Sulaiman bin Al-Aash'ath Al-Azdi as-Sijistani, who lived in the 9th Century AD) who's competence and reliability has not been proven to be questionable, did some research and found multiple sources corroborating that Abdullah ibn Abbas (may God be pleased with him, a companion of the Prophet (pbuh)) heard the Prophet (pbuh) say that the sin of Lot's people deserved death, then the command must be treated as God's will.
[/quote]
Even if one could equate the words of a teenage reporter of a messenger and a scholar who lived 200 years later to the words of God (Quran), your interpretation of Chapter 59, verse 7 is incorrect to some. It says that you are forbidden to do things as given by by the messenger but the punishment is up to God. God punishsed the people of Lut, not any of his of his prophets, their reporters, scholars, or courts formed by Muslim societies (which apparently God didn't order until the 7th century).

Re: Hatred and Islam

Sadqallah:swt: wa sadaqa Rasoolehil kareem :saw:

Hahahahaha! :k:

Goddamn it! people admit it, religion is made up of contradictions. My contradiction are different than yours, and the person next, and so on. All you’re trying to do is keep your “faith” untainted for the fear that Allah may make an entry in the accounting register that “that’s a sin” or best at least kay jee “Islam won’t look bad”. All religions are equally good and bad.

Pathetic bunch!

"Why does the impression matter so much rather then the actual meaning of the verse?"

Bingo!

Interesting discussion waise :)

If I posted the Hadith that said murderers should be executed, would I be accused of insulting murderers? Would I be accuse of not making it clear that murderers should be tried to ascertain their innocense of guilt before execution?<<<

for both questions my answer and point of view would be yes. Because otherwise, I can start yelling all kinds of things as well, and every time someone brings it up i can just say that he should find out the context from somewhere and my remarks shudn't be interpreted literally. It's too easy a way out.....especially when keeping in mind that some members have been punished for the very same fact