Re: Hatred and Islam
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sabah: *
Quran: 2:191
And slay them (non-believers) wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out
...
[/QUOTE]
Sabah! Why did you ignore 2:190?
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
Faisal---As I interpret it ,it means the Muslims have a right to defend themselves from being killed.Even if they have to kill in order to defend themselves.Whats wrong with that? You will not sit around and wait to be killed, Im assuming you would defend yourself and your family if attacked?
And slay them (non-believers) wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out
You might want to read the entire verse.I would take it as, defend yourself, and get rid of them where they try to get rid of you.It doesnt say go attack America.It says where ever you catch them.However neither does it say go kill any innocent person you catch.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *
Sabah! Why did you ignore 2:190?
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[/QUOTE]
^ Well, if the "limit" means to slay them whereever you find them... then whats your point?
Does it mention slay in the verse he quoted? searching
190 comes just before 191. Didn't you say we should keep things in context?
i live in bahrain which is perhaps a 99% muslim country, and the verse i quoted did not refer to killing non-muslims anyway…
if only u wud care to read carefully and not always be on ur heels to jump to criticize others… :nono:
Faisal do you pretend to not understand? App paR to sakthe hain Im sure.Since verse 190 does come before 191, does it not mean:
Do not exceed the limits.Defend and try to find a solution to the problem ,before you have to kill in defence?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by armughal: *
.....Quran 24:2*
*.... Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day.... *
u have to be strict ....so if it feels like hatred to u, then so be it....
Allah's command is to be carried out no matter how the entire universe feels about it....
[/QUOTE]
I have tried hard not to get involved in MAToo Mulakhra. However armughal is implying "anarchy" by misquoting Quran. According to Quran (2:190) a Muslim should never "exceed the limits" of the prevailing norms even when you are fighting those who attack you.
1400 years ago, it was a prevailing norm to take slaves from the defeated group of people. Prevailing norm these days is to follow strict international rules about POWs.
armughal conveniently forgot that 24:2 forbids to take pity while punishing public fornicators where 4 witnesses are available. 24:4 punishes false accusers with 80 lashes (double the amount for the fornicator).
Quranic injunctions are not a joke that some Mullah armughal can use at his whims. There has to be a proper court system with clear directions on "innocent until proven guilty".
It is truly sad to see MAToo anarchists using Quranic injunctions out of context, and without compassion for fellow human beings.
Mughal Bhai, the verse on killing non-believers was being discussed with a few people arguing for and against the implied meaning. You quoted a verse that encourages Muslims to now show compassion while dealing with Non-Muslims ... doesn't that automatically assumed that you were talking about the first verse?
To make things clear, maybe you can explain the verse you quoted in the context of this thread.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
Do not exceed the limits.Defend and try to find a solution to the problem ,before you have to kill in defence?
[/QUOTE]
I am trying to find the word "defence", "defend" or "self-defence" there. Help me... where is it?
Anyway, here is the whole thing:
002.190
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
002.191
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
002.192
PICKTHAL: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
002.193
PICKTHAL: The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
I am trying to find the word "defence", "defend" or "self-defence" there. Help me... where is it?
[/QUOTE]
App aur app ki sarcasm.:o Please read antiobl's last post.I think he did a pretty good job of explaining it.
Ok now since you quoted all the rest, are you saying you still dont understand?
*And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) *
^These are far from hatred.
Well, I can see what you are trying to say now.. but its still not clear if you are using the term "defence" purely on an individual basis or for the entire ummah. Meaning, if mushrikeen have begun hostilities against your ummah by killing your muslim brothers and sisters in Iraq, are they now fair target under 2:191? Or do you wait till someone attacks you personally before 2:191 becomes effective?
I will be more interested to know what others think the term 'in the way of Allah’ means?
Is the verse referring to only religious wars like the ones waged by Kuffars or Mecca or any war in general when someone attacks a Muslim for political or territorial reasons?
Faisal second page pai you understand a bit atleast.Shukar hai.(Kidding).I dont think it can be the entire Ummah.I mean nobody is or can attack all of us all at once, can they? Im interpreting it as if it would be for the specific group of people being attacked.I mean not all non Muslims are going to attack all Muslims.Therefore the verse cant be for an entire people against another entire people.In my opinion it is only for those being directly attacked.We are told to help those in need (there are verses for that) but this isnt about that.
Aren't we told that all muslims are one body... and if any part is in pain, the whole body feels the pain?
So, doesn't that mean that if one part of the ummah is attacked and is persecuted, the whole muslim ummah should feel the pain and retaliate against the enemies of Islam as if they are one body?
Or are you saying you will wait till you are personally persecuted before retaliating?
We should feel the pain and we should help them.But where does it say we have to attack or kill ?
If we agree that all muslims are one ummah and one body, then lets move one step. Read the ayats again. These ayats are addressed to ALL muslims (you = the whole muslim ummah):
002.190
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
002.191
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
It clearly talks about 'slaying' them whereever ye find them. And as we concluded before, the ayats are timeless and are as applicable today as they were 1400 years ago. Find any similarities?
but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
Therefore I dont think I can go and start killing people.If I were in a place where Muslims were being attacked, then I would attack back.But not while Im here.
and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out
Again if I was an Iraqi ,yes.But Im here and Im not being driven out or being attacked.
I am not suggesting you do, either. I am just trying to understand the thought process here so we can get a better understanding of the commandments of Allah (think of it as a practical Quran Halaqa) ...
Iraqis and Chechens and Palestinians and Kashmiris are part of our Ummah, ofcourse. If they are attacked and persecuted and driven out of their homes, what is the responsibility for the rest of the ummah? According to you 2:191 only applies to the group that is attacked and the rest of the ummah has no orders to attack the non-believers to help the ummah. Is that what you are saying?