Haram things for charity

[sadiqhassan]

Re: Haram things for charity

@Crescent_

^ yes, why not? Assuming its from Halaal venues..

I agree. If you are given a gift, it become your property.

[picoico]

Re: Haram things for charity

@Fraudz

ill gotten money is not always intentional and I doubt that Allah would punish you for ill gotten money in which you did not have a decision. e.g. look at my example of interest from utility company above. if someone belives interest is haraam and gets a refund check with interest, how is he liable for any punishment.

By definition, money obtained through unlawful means is deliberate. Think Robin Hood...

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Haram things for charity

@Fraudz

During college, i had money problems and I did not pay some bills on time. Later when i wanted to get power for my place the utility company asked for a deposit which I had to give them to get power. They kept the deposit, I forgot about it, years passed and more years passed, then they decided that my credit was better and their experience with me as a customer did not warrant that they hold a deposit. So they returned it, alongwith interest for all those years.

Now, if somone believes that interest is haram (which I dont but others do) and gets such a refund with interest, and there is a world of need around him (thats not hypothetical just look around), if he does not want to use the money, should that money just sit tere and go to waste or be given to some worthy cause.

Mr. Fraudia – I am Just giving my point of view and not a fatwah

In ‘Islamic sense’ we get rewarded for giving away in charity what was legally our property. In Islamic terms any interest earned on money is not ‘our property’ [Interest is haram whether in ‘soft humane terms’ or ‘hard cruel terms’ just like Urine is haram even if we dilute it. You wouldn’t touch a glass of water with a drop of the stuff in it, would you? Anyway let’s leave the debate of interest to a side]

So when someone gives away the interest earned (involuntarily/unintentionally) on his money, he is in fact giving away which was not his to start with anyway.

Therefore element of getting sawab for parting with his money/property does not arise.

It is better to take that money from the company and pass it on to the deserving without feeling that one has been charitable.

Just as **picoico ** implied - Take it from the rich and pass it on to the deserving. And do not be deluded as if you have generouly parted with your money.

want another example, I have a $10K omega watch given by Shaikh Zaid of Dubai to someone in my family who passed it to me. I have never worn it, partially because its way to expensive for me to just wear around, secondly its gold ( i dont wear gold and I dont like gold). So its sitting in a safe deposit box. Now it being a gold men’s watch and gold not allowed for men, this thing is kinda sorta haram-ish. Should I not sell it and donate the money to some needy cause.

Having a gold watch by itself is not haram but wearing of it is. You could still use the gold watch to see the time as long as you are not wearing it. It is still your property and it is your right to sell it and realise its monetary value and give it in charity and I am sure you will be rewarded for the good deed.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Haram things for charity

@picoico

By definition, money obtained through unlawful means is deliberate. Think Robin Hood…

some would say that money obtained as a result of interest income is unlawful as well.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Haram things for charity

@Ibn Sadique

Mr. Fraudia – I am Just giving my point of view and not a fatwah

In ‘Islamic sense’ we get rewarded for giving away in charity what was legally our property. In Islamic terms any interest earned on money is not ‘our property’ [Interest is haram whether in ‘soft humane terms’ or ‘hard cruel terms’ just like Urine is haram even if we dilute it. You wouldn’t touch a glass of water with a drop of the stuff in it, would you? Anyway let’s leave the debate of interest to a side]

So when someone gives away the interest earned (involuntarily/unintentionally) on his money, he is in fact giving away which was not his to start with anyway.

Therefore element of getting sawab for parting with his money/property does not arise.

It is better to take that money from the company and pass it on to the deserving without feeling that one has been charitable.

Just as **picoico ** implied - Take it from the rich and pass it on to the deserving. And do not be deluded as if you have generouly parted with your money.

Having a gold watch by itself is not haram but wearing of it is. You could still use the gold watch to see the time as long as you are not wearing it. It is still your property and it is your right to sell it and realise its monetary value and give it in charity and I am sure you will be rewarded for the good deed.

Thank you for a very balanced and informative response. I had a clarifying question. If I sell this gold men’s watch to someone who is going to wear it, does that not then become a haraam object? and then does the money obtained from the sale of it not become haraam? I have at times received expensive bottles of wine from my clients, and I have always tried to just say no and asked the guy to tae it back..although I did keep the fruits and chocolates and other goodies in these gift baskets, but in cases where they come in thru some gift company in mail I can either just toss them, or give them to someone else, or sell them and give the money to charity. I have always felt very uneasy about selling them..I mean alcohol is haraam, I can not and should not be selling or buying it.

I dont know if how I have dealt with the situation is right but I have just left the gift basket in a common area and taken things that I can use. usually after it is sitting out there for a day or two people would take the unwanted stuff. I guess by my mothers advise I should just open the bottle and flush the wine down the drain, but even if I get $25-50 from ppl for each bottle since they are usually twice that much in price, and i get 4-5 of these gifts, thats like a $100 that can go to a worthy cause even if i should not expect any sawaab for it. I still feel very uncomfortable with the idea. This thread made me think about it, your views would be appreciated.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Haram things for charity

@Fraudz

Thank you for a very balanced and informative response. I had a clarifying question. If I sell this gold men’s watch to someone who is going to wear it, does that not then become a haraam object? and then does the money obtained from the sale of it not become haraam? I have at times received expensive bottles of wine from my clients, and I have always tried to just say no and asked the guy to tae it back..although I did keep the fruits and chocolates and other goodies in these gift baskets, but in cases where they come in thru some gift company in mail I can either just toss them, or give them to someone else, or sell them and give the money to charity. I have always felt very uneasy about selling them..I mean alcohol is haraam, I can not and should not be selling or buying it.

I dont know if how I have dealt with the situation is right but I have just left the gift basket in a common area and taken things that I can use. usually after it is sitting out there for a day or two people would take the unwanted stuff. I guess by my mothers advise I should just open the bottle and flush the wine down the drain, but even if I get $25-50 from ppl for each bottle since they are usually twice that much in price, and i get 4-5 of these gifts, thats like a $100 that can go to a worthy cause even if i should not expect any sawaab for it. I still feel very uncomfortable with the idea. This thread made me think about it, your views would be appreciated.

Brother – Why not sell to the watch to a non Muslim? [It is only haram for a Muslim Male to wear gold.] So that you don’t have the guilt feeling that the person wearing it is contravening the Islamic requirements at your expense.

Regarding the wine your dear mother is right that the wine should be flushed down the drain. I presume that you are an investment banker and see everything from monetary value and may be seeing ‘good potential cash’ going down the drain.

Take the example of when the authorities burn and destroy thousands on tons of confiscated drugs/hashish/pills every year. To some that is millions of money gone up in the smoke and could have done a lot of good to millions of people.

See the following hadith: even giving the wine to people to drink is great sin.

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Abdullah ibn Umar that some men from Iraq said to him, “Abu Abd ar-Rahman, we buy the fruit of the palm and grapes and we squeeze them into wine and we sell it.” Abdullah ibn Umar said, "I call on Allah and His angels and whoever hears of jinn and men to testify to you that I order you not to buy it nor sell it nor to press it nor to drink it nor to give it to people to drink. It is something impure from the work of Shaytan." Imam Malik’s Muwatta, Book 42, Number 42.5.15

Why don’t you let your clients know that you collect donations privately for worthy causes and that instead of presenting you with expensive vintage wine, receiving which is against your beliefs, they could contribute to your private charity. Maybe that’s one way out for you.

[ChicagoBase]

Re: Haram things for charity

Fraudia bhai, from what I understand, it's not allowed for men to wear gold jewelry but the possesion of gold is allowed becase from I have heard is Zakaat is allowed on anyone who possess 85 grams of gold or more.
I also am having a hard time understanding the concept of haram goods owned by a Muslim.
From what I have noticed so far is there is no order (correct me brothers and sisters if I am wrong) from Qura'an and Hadiths where is asks you to destroy something that is haram but it tells you that if you use it, there won't be any sawab. (very similar to the concept of Makrooh)

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Haram things for charity

@ChicagoBase

**

I also am having a hard time understanding the concept of haram goods owned by a Muslim.

1. How about a Muslim owning a brewery or shares in such companies?

2. Pubs and Alcohol outlets or shares in them?

3. Pig farms and haram meat outlets?

There are quite a few more examples.

[ChicagoBase]

Re: Haram things for charity

@Ibn Sadique

1) How about a Muslim owning a brewery or shares in such companies?

2) Pubs and Alcohol outlets or shares in them?

3) Pig farms and haram meat outlets?

There are quite a few more examples.

To someone who carries a very limited knowledge of Deen and even lesser intelligence, the answer shouldn't be that hard yet, it may have more than one answer depending on the situation. For example:

1: Is the person who owns such things a reborn Muslim and had them in possession before her turned to the Islam?
2: Did the person received the possession of those things from someone else, like his father's will, a relative, a gift or unintentionally?
3: Did the person decided to went ahead and BUY the forbidden things?

First, the simple concept of haram or forbidden in Islam.
They are forbidden in Islam because they either lead one to harm his/her own self or others, there are many examples to use and I am sure you have heard so let's not get into that.

Now, let me try to answer to the situations posted above by me. If someone feels/thinks/knows my answers are wrong in the light of Qur'an and Hadiths, correct me.

1: If he owned them before he accepted the truth of Islam and practices the rules of Islam then insha Allah, he will sell those forbidden things and use that money to something else. Of course a smart buyer will question him about why he is selling it, hence he can give them the reason why he is leaving this forbidden business (At the same time, he is actually doing Dawah so it's 2 birds with one stone).

2: Same as above with the exception where the situation someone like what Fraudia bhai stated where he received a check of his own money with the interest. If something like that had happened to me, I would have take my money out of the check and made a check to the company to the amount they sent me as interest and send them back with the explanation of why I can not accept this money.

3: If the person, knew about the forbidden things and still bought the business, it's Allah to decide the punishment (which, most likely is already discribed in Qur'an or Hadiths) or forgiveness. **
**It's like me going for a car shopping and know nothing about the car. I have 2 options. One is to follow the manual the car (Which in this car is Qur'an) or asks someone who knows the most about cars (In this case, the Prophet (PBUH) or just learn on my own by trying and pressing different buttons, some might work in favor of me and some might not but that's the risk I need to take to drive and buy this car.

Hope I explianed it enough so others can understand what I am trying to say here.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Haram things for charity

What’s so friggin’ haraam about fashion shows? Have you seen the fashion shows in Pakistan? The models wear shalwaar kameez. You people have gotta be kidding.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Haram things for charity

In fact, there is a great allegory story in Islam that you people have missed. The one about the prostitute feeding the dog some water of her own in a desert. She found the water or bought it with probably haraam money. So, how did she get sawaab for her act?

Jeez people. A good deed is a good deed. And I don't see how any of the hypocrites here have the authority to determine what is sawab and what's not.

And its bloody Sawab, not THawab. We're not arabs.

[Light_Bearer]

Re: Haram things for charity

@PyariCgudia

In fact, there is a great allegory story in Islam that you people have missed. The one about the prostitute feeding the dog some water of her own in a desert. She found the water or bought it with probably haraam money. So, how did she get sawaab for her act?

Jeez people. A good deed is a good deed. And I don't see how any of the hypocrites here have the authority to determine what is sawab and what's not.

And its bloody Sawab, not THawab. We're not arabs.

Spot on PCG. wanabe arabs.

[AQ]

Re: Haram things for charity

@PyariCgudia

In fact, there is a great allegory story in Islam that you people have missed. The one about the prostitute feeding the dog some water of her own in a desert. She found the water or bought it with probably haraam money. So, how did she get sawaab for her act?

few questions…

1- Please, post the reference of this story. You can not expect us to believe in this without giving us its validity. [If it is valid, we have to accept it]

2- SO which is true? She found the water or did she BUY it [probably] from haraam money.

3- How do you know she bought it? Is is documented that she bought it? Is it in the story that money was haraam…

Charity with Haraam money bears NO Sawaab [Thawaab in the correct pronounciation of the arabic word Sawaab]…

Rasoolulah:saw: said:

If anyone gives in charity the equivalent of a date from money that is honestly earned, for Allah only accepts that which is lawful, the Lord would accept it with His Right Hand, and even if it is a date, it would grow in the Hand of the Lord, as one of you raises his colt, until it becomes bigger than a mountain.”

The above hadeeth is Muttafiq Aliyeh in the books of Imam Bukhaari and Imam Muslim

Wallaho Alam.

[Mal1k]

Re: Haram things for charity

@Fraudz

want another example, I have a $10K omega watch given by Shaikh Zaid of Dubai to someone in my family who passed it to me. I have never worn it, partially because its way to expensive for me to just wear around, secondly its gold ( i dont wear gold and I dont like gold). So its sitting in a safe deposit box. Now it being a gold men's watch and gold not allowed for men, this thing is kinda sorta haram-ish. Should I not sell it and donate the money to some needy cause. can we have a fatwa now. :) shabaash

Yes, & the fatwa is that U hand over that Rolex to me, coz I am a citizen of Shaikh Zayed's country & that is my hard earned $$$ U have stacked away in the corner of Ur safe...Plus I cant see the time correctly from my Rolex anymore, it needs servicing & I dont have the time...:D hypoethitheticatizcally speaking...:D

[ChicagoBase]

Re: Haram things for charity

@PyariCgudia

In fact, there is a great allegory story in Islam that you people have missed. The one about the prostitute feeding the dog some water of her own in a desert. She found the water or bought it with probably haraam money. So, how did she get sawaab for her act?

Jeez people. A good deed is a good deed. And I don't see how any of the hypocrites here have the authority to determine what is sawab and what's not.

And its bloody Sawab, not THawab. We're not arabs.

I can only speak for myself and yes, you did remind of this story that I have heard from my grand mother but there are 2 things that are bothering, please help me find the the source of this story because so far I have not come across this story in Qur'an and I haven't start reading the Hadiths as of right now.
The way I have remember the story, the prostitute got the water from a nearby well by wetting her corners of clothes and squeezed them in the mouth of dog and that act Allah loved so much that he blessed her the entry to heaven.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Haram things for charity

@PyariCgudia

In fact, there is a great allegory story in Islam that you people have missed. The one about the prostitute feeding the dog some water of her own in a desert. She found the water or bought it with probably haraam money. So, how did she get sawaab for her act?

This ‘allegory story in Islam’ highlights the Mercy of Allah (swt) and is not a licence for prostitutes to go out and look for dehydrated dogs in the desert to set their scores right when their charms have run out.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Haram things for charity

@PyariCgudia

And its bloody Sawab, not THawab. We’re not arabs.

You don’t have to be that touchy. This is an Arabic word to start with. May be those who pronounce it as THawab are doing it so only because blessed Prophet (saw) pronounced it so (THawab). Keep in mind the Prophet (saw) was an Arab.

Don’t you too on your part try to impress your American hosts by pronouncing QUEEN with** ‘Q’ **and not as KWeen? Or arranging your lips properly before saying ‘WHistle’ so that it doesn’t sound as ‘Vhistle’?

How about when wannabe Americans (Is it ABCDs?) say; “We are “MUZlems”” when actually they mean to say; “We are Muslims.”?

Does it upset you that have a go at them too? I doubt.

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: Haram things for charity

@PyariCgudia

Jeez people. A good deed is a good deed. And I don’t see how any of the hypocrites here have the authority to determine what is sawab and what’s not.

Before you embark to correct others, correct thyself first.

jeez 'jeez\ interj - Corrupted form of the pejorative “Jesus.” The term is notable in that it is most often used singularly, either at the beginning of a sentence, the end of a sentence, or as a sentence all on its own; “Jeez. I thought my mittens were at your house.” Although used as an exclamation of frustration or emphasis, it is somewhat more benign than “Jesus,” “Jesus Christ,” or “Christ” which are often used in the same manner.

We should always remember that when we point one finger at others, the other three fingers are pointing at ourselves.

The following may make more sense to you. (It is from the Bible)

*"And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

"Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

“Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye”.* Matthew 7:3-5

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Haram things for charity

@Mal1k

Yes, & the fatwa is that U hand over that Rolex to me, coz I am a citizen of Shaikh Zayed’s country & that is my hard earned $$$ U have stacked away in the corner of Ur safe…Plus I cant see the time correctly from my Rolex anymore, it needs servicing & I dont have the time… hypoethitheticatizcally speaking…

omega baba, not a rolex.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Haram things for charity

@Ibn Sadique

Brother – Why not sell to the watch to a non Muslim? [It is only haram for a Muslim Male to wear gold.] So that you don’t have the guilt feeling that the person wearing it is contravening the Islamic requirements at your expense.

Regarding the wine your dear mother is right that the wine should be flushed down the drain. I presume that you are an investment banker and see everything from monetary value and may be seeing ‘good potential cash’ going down the drain.

Take the example of when the authorities burn and destroy thousands on tons of confiscated drugs/hashish/pills every year. To some that is millions of money gone up in the smoke and could have done a lot of good to millions of people.

See the following hadith: even giving the wine to people to drink is great sin.

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Abdullah ibn Umar that some men from Iraq said to him, “Abu Abd ar-Rahman, we buy the fruit of the palm and grapes and we squeeze them into wine and we sell it.” Abdullah ibn Umar said, "I call on Allah and His angels and whoever hears of jinn and men to testify to you that I order you not to buy it nor sell it nor to press it nor to drink it nor to give it to people to drink. It is something impure from the work of Shaytan." Imam Malik’s Muwatta, Book 42, Number 42.5.15

Why don’t you let your clients know that you collect donations privately for worthy causes and that instead of presenting you with expensive vintage wine, receiving which is against your beliefs, they could contribute to your private charity. Maybe that’s one way out for you.

1. sellig watch to non muslim. I think when we believe something is wrong, it is wrong. Its not a question of guilt, its a question of what is right

2. now when you are saying that the wine should be flushed down, well why should that be flushed down and not sold to a non muslim? as you state for the watch

I am having issues understanding how if wearing a gold watch is haram, I can sell that to a non muslim but drinking wine is haram but i cant sell wine to a non muslim.

I am not an investment banker, however, if instead of flushing the wine down the pipes I can get even 50% of its price, it may feed a family for a week in some country, it may help get medicines for some needy person. Whether or not I get sawab for it is not even the issue now, but if something can help someone why not use it.

we have to be consistent, either I can sell the watch and thus can sell the wine, or I can not sell either.

As far as my clients go, they change year in year out and while most of them know I dont drink usually the presents are some company package thing that is done and they dont personally go and pick a basket for me asking them to contribute to a charity instead is a little tricky for many reasons it can be considered accepting payments, it can backfire because hey who knows what charity one supports and what others think of that charity…a touchy subject especially in business circles and especially in client situations