Does the average Palesitinian even know about Kashmir? I somehow doubt they give two hoots.
If pakistan does recognise Israel, i want to kow, what does Pakistan get out of it? Cuz i'm pretty sure Israel couldnt careless about being recognised because they have direct contact with pakistan as it is.
we all know israel is obviously here to stay...the existence of israel isn't depended on it's recognition from pakistan but pakistan might gain some economical and political gain out of it...our irrational thinking has caused pakistan many damages...two most important muslim countries namely egypt and turkey have alreay recognised israel...i don't know what makes us hesitate to recognize israel...aaceptance of israel and the rights of palestinians are two different things...
by accepting israel pakistan with it's huge and predominantly muslim population will be in a far better position to mediate between israel and plestininans then it is now...by harping the mantra of "ummah ummah" we aren't helping the palestininas in any way...
http://www.timespk.com/2003/july/29/scoop.htm
With this exclusive story, elite English Daily ‘Pakistan Observer’ quotes its Special Correspondent Aroosa Alam as reporting: The JCSS, in its 80-page research document, has concluded, “Whenever Pakistan recognizes and establishes relations with Israel, it will not be the first Islamic country to do so. Since it has no direct disputes with Israel, Pakistan is not under any compulsion to seek a “cold peace” with Israel and, therefore, has several options to choose from.
(1) The Turkish model: Pakistan can recognize Israel without establishing diplomatic relations immediately.
(2) The Iranian model: It can follow the precedent set by the Shah of Iran and recognize the Jewish state, but maintain its relationship under wraps.
(3) The Jordanian model: It can imitate the Jordanians and maintain close political as well as military relations with the Jewish state without granting any official recognition.
(4) The Chinese model: It can adopt the Chinese example and view military contacts as a means of promoting political relations.
Oh there are other models too, who knows how many middle eastern governments have done deals behind closed doors..
main thing israel will expect from pakistan is not proliferate nukes to arab countries.
Sorry for Jumping in but I couldn’t resist to post a reply to Shawaiz’s claim that Israel is here to stay. So too the European crusaders came to the Holy Land to stay there forever and for a time it looked very true. However, they were sent home packing by Salahuddin a century later.
What Muslim ummah really needs right now is someone who has the personality, leadership skills, and courage of Salahuddin. Someone who can unite us all and help us get out of this awful mess, not only in Palestine, but from Philippines(Moro) to Morocco and every place in between.
Backing up PakiCanuck's point... the Crusader Kingdom based in Jerusalem, which lasted 87 years, was in many ways militarily similar to Israel.
Its army was smaller than those of its enemies, yet it consistently won battles until the very end.
Its soldiers were better trained by its enemies.
Its army was more disciplined than its enemies.
Its army was better equipped than it enemies.
Its enemies were divided amongst themselves.
Eventually, though, it fell.
Of course, the Crusaders didn't have nuclear missiles that they suggested through veiled threats they would fire at the population centres of their enemies should they face defeat, as Israel has with it's "Samson" option. (Samson being a biblical Jewish hero, who realising he was going to be killed by his enemies, collapsed the bulding he was in and thereby killing his enemies along with himself).
Israel is much more likely to fall victim to its own demographics. Right now, 20% of Israeli voters are Arab, this will rise to close to 40% by 2050 if current population growth rates continue, and at the current rate within 100 years Israel will be a country where Jewish voters are outnumbered by Arab voters, inshallah.
Israel is attempting to slow this down through its new racist law that denies non-Israeli Arabs from ever gaining citizenship and voting rights through marriage, but the high birth rate of Israeli arabs should inshallah mean that this measure has only a very limited effect.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by cheebu: *
And u were sayin that Abbas is in india?,... what about Isreal selling its anti-missile technology to India.. for the purpose of distroying us!!!
[/QUOTE]
this is why we opted for a friendly relationship with israel...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakiCanuck: *
Sorry for Jumping in but I couldn’t resist to post a reply to Shawaiz’s claim that Israel is here to stay. So too the European crusaders came to the Holy Land to stay there forever and for a time it looked very true. However, they were sent home packing by Salahuddin a century later.
What Muslim ummah really needs right now is someone who has the personality, leadership skills, and courage of Salahuddin. Someone who can unite us all and help us get out of this awful mess, not only in Palestine, but from Philippines(Moro) to Morocco and every place in between.
[/QUOTE]
your'e confusing this issue by comparing one millennium old history with today's fact...israel is here to stay because the state of isarel has been recognised by almost all countries and it's a permanent member of the UNO...as far as the muslim ummah is concerned, it is only a delusion, it exists onyl in the schizophrenic minds of some muslims whether you believe it or not...
Shawaiz do you remember a state called the USSR where is it now in the dustbin of history!
USSR was superpower invincible and scared every nation in its path.
For you to proclaim israel is here to stay is 1. unrealistic and 2. not based on fact.
Israel is dependent on arab regimes for its protection you mentioned jordan already. The regimes that support the israeli entity are totally seperate from the populations who wish to see the occupied territories freed. So it is just matter of time before the israeli enity ceases to be.
The fighting taken place last year in jenin between israeli army and the few mujahideen took 10-15 days made the six day war look like it was stage managed.
these people who say israel is mighty state dont understand israel is a mighty mouse that crys if a country hundreds of miles away test a missle like iran, shows you how fragile this mighty mouse is. 
Is Hamas asserting some power over Pakistan by "warning" it?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Is Hamas asserting some power over Pakistan by "warning" it?
[/QUOTE]
I think its a thinly veiled threat
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
I think its a thinly veiled threat
[/QUOTE]
I saw nothing threatening in his statement.
Before I begin I would like to remind Shawaiz that the official religion of Pakistan is Islam and the Preamble of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan states as follows:
“Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust …………Cognizant of our responsibility before Almighty Allah”
and therefore it is not a secular state.
The only reason why all this issue about Pakistan recognizing Israel started because Musharraf – a person who claims to be a Muslim – is trying to open a dialogue about this issue who has no respect for Islam. I will also like to inform everybody that his idol – Kemal Attaturk – did his primary studies at a Turkish Jewish school and he knew several Hebrew prayers by heart.* Even Turks are fed up with Kemalist ideas and have tried to elect Islamic governments only to be overthrown by his counterparts in that part of the world.
So according to the beautiful words of PM Recep Tayap Erdogan: “A person cannot be a secularist and a Muslim at the same time”
Sir, you are forgetting one of the oldest well-known maxims in history:
“History repeats itself” So therefore it can happen again.
During the period of Crusades, Muslims were facing the same situation that we as Muslims are facing today. Muslims were divided due to petty differences and Muslim rulers were happy to have their Muslim opponents wiped out by non-Muslims. Christians attacked us from the West and the Mongols from the East. However, Salahuddin saved us from the West and the Mongols converted to Islam in the East. I think that is a remarkable achievement. If we were able to do it then with the help of Allah, surely there’s nothing that can stop Allah(swt) from doing it again.
Now I will proceed to your first claim that I am confusing a millennium old history with current situations and that we will have to recognize Israel:
I have never resorted to personal attacks, however in this case, I have been compelled to assume that you are not a Muslim or you are a self-hating Muslim due to your continued intransigence against the posters on this issue who have tried to explain their point of view from an Islamic perspective. So therefore our – by that I mean Muslims – belief in God cannot be compared to your belief or concept of God. We believe that God is not bound by laws, notions, and constraints created by men themselves such as the artificial UN charter, etc., etc., as you have suggested. Therefore, he can turn the world upside down with one single order: “Be”. He helped Muslims during the trying time of Crusades and there sure is nothing that can stop him from doing it again. Time doesn’t control God, it is God who controls time. His power is boundless, timeless, and above all unimaginable. A Muslim has taken an oath of allegiance to God and not to the UN Charter. So therefore, his prime responsibility is to obey God and stand shoulder to shoulder with his brothers and sisters wherever they are being oppressed. Therefore Muslims regard the Zionist State of Israel as an illegal entity.
Since the creed of Pakistan is La ilaha illallah and it is a country of Muslims, for Muslims, and by Muslims, we will never accept a proposal foreign to Quran and Sunnah.
Now to your second claim that:
[QUOTE]
as far as the muslim ummah is concerned, it is only a delusion, it exists onyl in the schizophrenic minds of some muslims whether you believe it or not...
[/QUOTE]
As far that is concerned I will again have to assume that you are not a Muslim, this concept is dead only in the minds of non-Muslims and they would like Muslims to believe the same.
However, it lives in the hearts and minds of millions of Muslims from Moro(Phillipines) to Morocco and every place in between. To emphasize my point, I will like to tell you a personal account of a fellow Muslim. Before coming to Canada, I used to live in Bahrain, Persian Gulf – home of the US Navy’s 5th fleet. Coming from a family with strong religious traditions, I used to pray at a mosque nearby where I would regularly meet a Yemeni brother who was enlisted in Bahrain Defence Forces (BDF). His father owned an appliances repair shop and he lived a comfortable life as compared to Yemen. However, when the Bosnian war started, he got together with two of his friends and decided to join his fellow Bosniak Muslims there in a struggle to gain freedom. My question: what compelled a Yemeni, who had found a comfortable life in Bahrain, to make a journey of thousands of Kilometers and defend completely unknown group of people and then get martyred(Shaheed). The only reason I can find is that deep in his heart he knew that there are Muslims in that part of the world who are being oppressed and being part of the Muslim Ummah, he has an obligation to defend them. On the day his father received the news of his son, he declared he had never been happier in his life ever before and thanked God for accepting his son. So did the countless Algerian Arabs went to help their fellow Muslim Bosniaks and the Arabs came to Afghanistan to help their fellow Muslims get rid of Communism.
The Islamic PAS political party which governs two states of Malaysia and is the Official Opposition in the national Parliament, strongly connects itself with the global Islamic Ummah.
When the war in Afghanistan started, there was a recruitment drive in Indonesia to fight in Afghanistan.
I don’t have to look any further from my own University’s MSA. We have members from Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, Malaysia, Somalis, etc. etc. only because we all believe that we belong to the same community: the Ummah of Muhammad(PBUH).
Even the most successful political leader in the Islamic world – PM Mahathir of Malaysia – has never disassociated himself from the global Islamic Community. Even though his character is somewhat susceptible.
And above all on the Day of Judgment I would like to be resurrected not as a Pakistani, nor as a Punjabi, nor as an ‘Ajami. But as a Muslim, a member of the Ummah of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and this is what most Pakistanis wish and are trying to achieve.
One of the reasons why I would never accept a Zionist state is as follows:
The Jewish-Muslim relations have been exemplary at some moments of Islamic history. For example the Caliph at Cordoba entrusted a Jew with the post of Minister of Finance and Foreign Affairs: Hasdai bin Shaprut under Caliph Abd al-Rahman III.** Can you imagine something like that during that time in Europe, it was like Jews didn’t even exist.
When Jews were forcibly expelled from Islamic Andalusia, they went to either Morocco or the Ottoman Empire, two Muslim entities. They were treated with great respect and were awarded equal rights.
The Holocaust had nothing to do with Muslims. It was a fanatically stupid European named Hitler and his SA thugs and SS goons who committed one of the most horrible crime on the face of the Earth.
But what did the Zionists do: they went to Palestine and committed barbaric crimes of unimaginable proportions.*** They displaced thousands of them, murdered thousands of them, and other horrible crimes that do not deserve to be mentioned here.
My Question: What did the Palestinians do to deserve this.
So for me it is very difficult to reconcile the Zionist entity’s atrocities against Palestinians with our treatment of Jews.
As a Muslim: what matters to me is that at the end of the day, it is God who is pleased with me and not the people who bark that the UN Charter has to be upheld only when it benefits themselves.
An another piece of information: Hamas was founded by Shin Bet - the internal version of Mossad - for outstripping PLO.
"What goes around, comes around."
Footnotes:
* a simple search on Google with keywords: “Kemal Ataturk Jewish” will reveal lots and lots of information
** for more information go to www.jewishencyclopedia.com, type “Cordova” in the search column and follow the links.
*** for more information here is some recommended reading: Robert Fisk’s several columns, Noam Chomsky’s “Fateful Triangle” and James Baker’s “Theft of a Nation”.
**
1stly two wrongs does not make a right.. secoundly the "ABBAS" guy does not repersent the whole palestinians. he himself is another american pupet...
**
So? It is what the Palestinian government decides that affects the lives of Pakistan and Pakistanis. If the Palesyinians develop an pro-India policy then why cover up their choices?
**
And saying that arabs have left us a long time ago for india.. dont blame them for everything.. think what ur doin wrong!!
**
What are "WE" doing wrong? Not accepting Israel. If the Arabs can continue relations with India while India is allied to Israel, why can't we? I love it when people like you support hypocrites.
ussr is just one name in the list of those nations who once emerged as a super power and then vanished in the puff of smoke, nobody is denying this fact…but i don’t know why are you comparing ussr with israel, ussr was an imperial power and israel is struggling for it’s very survival…
israel is here to stay because the USA is the open supporter of Israel and the principal guarantor of Israel’s continued existence …i am neither pro nor anti-israel…my interest is confined to pakistan and i only know pakistan has much more to gain if it establishes friendly relations with israel…but it doesn’t automatically mean that we give up our moral support to the palestinians…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Is Hamas asserting some power over Pakistan by "warning" it?
[/QUOTE]
nice try, but no one is that naive dome, it was not a warning to pakistan it was a warning against beliving the lying jews in israel and the untrustworthy americans!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by shawaiz: *
but i don't know why are you comparing ussr with israel, ussr was an imperial power and israel is struggling for it's very survival...
israel is here to stay because the USA is the open supporter of Israel and the principal guarantor of Israel’s continued existence ...
[/QUOTE]
shawaiz by your own statement you said israel is struggling for its survival. so even using the logical argument it has less chance than the ussr example to survive.
Yes the US is supporter of israel but for how long
Lord palmerston quoted famously for the British State "We have no eternal allies and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual and those interests it is our duty to follow"
this is the same for any imperialist capitalist state with no morals in particular the US. Israel is in its intrests for now but for how long. There are 2 issues that i can see the capitulation of the current regimes in muslim lands which is inevitable due to the amount of attempted coups and pubic dessent reported and unreported. Also when israel becomes to much of a burden then you will see it discarded like a used tissue.
Israel is on a constant war footing it is the size of luxemburg, an army would take by estimates 4 hours to surround the strategic positions within occupied palestine. the israeli entity is surrounded by people who cannot stand them it is only matter of time before the inevitable happens.
Its not matter of being sympathetic to the palestinians its a reality on the ground.
Hello ladies and gentlemen, sorry for the late reply...
Personally who do hamas think they are comeing into our country and telling us what to do i think the forget pakistan is a sovrigne nation and can make up its own mind and will not be minuplated or threatened by rocket and gun toting fools.
What has hamas brought the palastinan men, women and children except more death and distruction... ??? It was the prophet mohammed PBUH who said, respect all jews and do no harm to them, give them full quater. these were his own words - quoted from the film "The Message".
So if it is in Pakistan's strategic benifit to recognise Isreal then why not...! We should really work together to throw these idiots out of our country...