So in southern states, the Halal Shops normally employ non-Muslims (Hispanics) in the meat section. I had not seen any non-Muslim working in Halal shops in Canada at least.
So a FB page admin was preparing a list of Halal shops in a city and asking people of their favourites and what do they like and dislike etc etc.
Someone mentioned about an issue where a Halal restaurant has non-Muslim workers who prepare the food and most times do not use any gloves. Which means they touch meat with their wet hands. Apparently the poster was a Shia brother and he provided a Fatwa of Ayatullah Sistani.
I would like to know what Hanafi Figh has to say about such issue. There could be so many questions and scenarios that can arise from this matter.
Non-Muslims working in Meat sections in Halal stores. With or without gloves on.
Non-Muslims working in Halal Restaurants. With or without gloves on.
etc etc.
The common sense says that as long as the meat was obtained by following the Islamic zibah procedure and was halal, there shouldn’t be a problem nonMuslims selling/handling/giving it to you. Maintainig the hygienic/cleanliness standards is responsibility of the owner of the store. If you’re satisfied with the cleanliness standards, I don’t see a problem with that. Rest God knows the best.
There could be a rationalist argument formed using philosophical argument or 4 traditional canons of Islamic law, or direct principles from other sources like Quran and Hadith.
But what “common sense” to me applies is in the answer of the following question: Did Prophet Mumammed, God be please with him, NOT eat meat until after he turned 40 and well into his years of prophethood? If he did actually eat, did he eat only what he himself butchered?
In my view, the Prophet ate among the people, bought from the people, visited gatherings among the people, and only forbid certain things only “as his own preference” before and after his prophethood. Being a Muslim or acting according to Islamic guidance does not mean ostracizing anyone and disrupting economy with labor marginalization.
In this light, meat handling can even be done by an animal (hunting) not just a non-muslim as long as:
meat is not haram and is Halal
it is slaughtered in the name of the One true Supreme God
slaughtered with jugular vein
animal is not sick or diseases or pregnant at the time of death
What happened before Islam is different than what we do now after clear revelation. We cannot find answer of non-Muslim touching zabhiah from pre-prophethood practice of Prophet Muhammed SAW.
true. a non Muslim’s food is as good as anyone else’ unless the food itself is Haraam in Islam. most good miThais in India are made by non Muslims and Maulvis love to eat them after fatiHas…lol…it’s true!
There’s a prejudice against non Muslims about not being clean which is strange… As long as folks wash their hands they’re clean and as long as the food is made with halal ingredients I don’t see the reason to reject that food.
It has always been a worry for me buying halal from non-Muslims. It is not entirely in the meat either. And here are the problems:
Non-Muslims may buy meat labelled halal without necessarily going to the extents of ensuring the meat was really halal.
Non-Muslims themselves do not have the concern of halal and haram and will often mix foods or utensils with food that are haram. E.g. Cutting a halal chicken sandwich with a knife previously used for cutting a pork sandwich on a common chopping board.
Non-Muslims are more interested in selling their product than wasting money on expensive halal meat … There is very little in the way of consequence for false advertising halal … So many do … In fact many Muslims do too.
Oh please psyah, there is massive “halal meat” fraud in the US, with most companies distributing this meat knowing that the meat is not halal. Then on top of it, meat is sold at higher prices than market price, when it’s actual market price foo, and the chickens are still treated poorly and inhumanely at the farms they’re taken from.
This is muslims. You can’t trust MUSLIMS in the halal food market in the US.
The other way to look at this: Did Rasulullah SAW prohibit employing non-muslims? Does the Quran have something to say about this?
what if a muslim man opens a butcher shop and he is not able to find anyone Muslim to work in his shop? what then? (keep in mind that the meat is perfectly halal as the muslim man makes sure that it is zabihah…)
do we avoid frequenting this butcher shop?
what do we do?
if you are looking for a ruling, I’m sure that you will be able to find one…as to whether it will be from the Hanafi fiqh or not is another story.
I’m as strict on meat sourced by and from Muslims for the reasons you gave … But you can’t criticise Muslims then flip over and be lenient on non-Muslims … Take one path … Strict or non-strict … I follow a very strict line for meat consumption.
If the owner is a Muslim and the meat is halal and there is no risk of contamination then how can that not be allowed? Only Jews have the requirement of Jews to be preparing kosher meat, we merely tend to draw the lines at the person slaughtering must be Muslim.
First of all you have been extremely careless, arrogant, and plain shallow if not stupid to treat word of God the way you have quoted.
Its actually 9:28 you trying to quote. Not verse 128 of Surah Taubah
second, the full verse is :
“O you who believe (in Allah’s Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.”
The word Najas DOES NOT mean dehumanizing, racial profiling, or any form of eternal condemnation to spiritual impurity.
Even Muslims are Najas (usually) until they perform wudhu. You DO NOT understand this and the prerequisite of many things, so please learn before misguiding others. You need to know the reference this verse is making to the historic and socio-economic challenge the Meccans were facing at this critical transitionary time.
eventhough I’m telling you all this, I do not know much about this. but I know enough to understand I do not know…
We are talking about the issue of meat handling by non-muslims. You are right about demanding evidence for conclusions.
Actually, you are right, but also there is more to consider:
Islam brought absolutely NOTHING new that previous revelations and Prophets and Messengers had not already brought.
The Quran (this time around) eternally preserves certain very clear directives to avoid things in strongest terms (the haram): example, Riba, Zina, Alcohol, ghibat, Shirk.
Other than the few explicitly named, mentioned, strictly forbidden HARAM mentioned in the Quran, the Quran urges, almost begs human beings to read, thinks, ponder, reflect, observe consensus, evolve, do not be afraid to make mistakes, love. It does not even ask humans to believe in One God without presenting evidences and begging for intellectual submission first.
So the issue of meat handling in this thread cannot be handle with shallow dogmatism.
Before the final conquest of Makka at the end of 10 years of struggle, Allah’s messenger sought refuge among the jews of Yathrib where the smaller muslim community had a kind of a refugee status. There was never a Muslim administration during those 10 years and Muslim community was a persecuted community. Certainly in those 10years, there must be atleast 1 anecdote in hadith showing how the muslims ate among others.
Muslims are narrow. Islam isn’t. be careful characterizing your Prophet, he was not dogmatic, or narrow like you and I.
This is an Interesting scenario. Lets look at it from the other perspective.
What if a non-muslim opens a butcher shop, and dont want to hire muslims because his non-muslim customers (who happen to comprise the majority of his customers) don’t want their meat to be prepared by muslims, for whatever reason.
Do we view it as discrimination? What if its not a butcher shop but a corporation, hospital, clothes shop or whatever, whos customers/patients view muslims as unclean?
