who wrote this peak of eloquence and was his method of collection raliable enough.
What is the Shia belief about this book. how much they revere it and do they believe that all the book contents are authoritative sayings of Hazrat Ali?
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
How do we know Hazrat Ali (ra) said this and not just things attributed to him?
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Exactly the question i asked. For Hadith collection there was a system in place called the Science of AHadith. What about this book which contains sayings of Hazrat Ali. Is there any science of Hazrat Ali's sayings as well with our Shia brothers?
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
I am asking this question in relation to another thread where a quote attributed to Hazrat Ali in this book about animals having extranl ears giving live birth and without external ears laying eggs does not hold good according to modern science. There are few species in reptiles who give live birth though they do not have external ears. So i want to know the criteria from where it could be ascertained that this book contains sayings which are originally from him and not mere attributions of lesser minds.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Dear Brother: Prophet Mohmmad (PBUH) said, I am gate of Knoweldge and Ali is the Gate"
Select any qoute from the above list and find the writer of it, if you have any doubt about GATE OF KNOWLEDGE..
All these saying are of Imam Ali (as) no one except him can explain the matters in this kind of qoutes. It is knowledge given by Almighty ALLAH.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Salam, dear,
in that thread the person already claimed that i took this from vikipedia not from any religious books.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Give me any personality except Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) , you think is the writer of these sayings,,....??????? find entire world , you will not find any one, except the Imam Ali (as)./ GATE OF KNOWEDGE
Note: there is not need to give him attribute, he does not need any attribute of you or any one else... IT is ALLAH WHO GIVE ATTRIBUTE..
have you any doubt??? bring your evidence,,,
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
^ keep emotions aside, look at the context of word "attribute" in what posters said then come back. Thanks.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
The well known sunni historian Al-Massaudi, who died before the birth of Seyyed Razi, said that Ali left 420 speeches. Also, Muhammad Abduh who was the grand imam of Al-Azhar University said that the speeches and the letters are written by Imam Ali and there is no way any other human being could write something similar. The former Wahhabi, and then later Shi’a scholar Muhammad al-Tijani, wrote in his And then I was Guided about his childhood Sunni experiences:
I remember, for example, when our Arabic Rhetoric teacher was teaching the Shaqshaqiyyah oration from the book “Nahj al-Balaghah” by Imam Ali, that I was puzzled, as were many other students, when we read it, but I dared to ask the following question: “Are these truly the words of Imam Ali?” He answered: “Definitely, who would have had this eloquence apart from him. If it were not his saying, why should the Muslim scholars like Shaykh Muhammad Abduh, the Mufti of Egypt, concern themselves with its interpretation?” Then I said, “Imam Ali accuses Abu Bakr and Umar that they robbed him of his right to succeed as Caliph”. The teacher was outraged and he rebuked me very strongly and threatened to expel me from the class, and added, “We teach Arabic Rhetoric and not history. We are not concerned with the dark episodes of history and its bloody wars between Muslims, and in as much as Allah has cleaned our swords from their blood, let us clean our tongues by not condemning them”.](Nahj al-balagha - Wikipedia)
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
how do we know any quote or hadith is factual and not attributed? You refer to scholars and thier research and if you're not happy, you go out and do you're own.
i guess common sense is not that common is it.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Note: there is not need to give him attribute, he does not need any attribute of you or any one else... IT is ALLAH WHO GIVE ATTRIBUTE..
have you any doubt??? bring your evidence,,,
Very ture Healthy Mind !!
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
i guess common sense is not that common is it.
Ab aye ho na line par sarkar...
That is the exact reason why I asked... FOR YOU its common sense even when we can't confirm where the sayings originated from and when it comes to hadith books, you reject them without even using common sense, why? Because it exposes the shia fallacy? Why? Because hadith books respect wives of the prophet? Why? Because hadith books respect sahaba?
FOR you examples of your IMAMS but for us you tell us along with Qadiyanis, "oh you don't need example of your prophet, we can't confirm if sayings attributed to the prophet are really his..."
Allah SAVED everything that Hazrat Ali said, but Allah could not save/preserve what his last great prophet said??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
That is the exact reason why I asked... FOR YOU its common sense even when we can't confirm where the sayings originated from and when it comes to hadith books, you reject them without even using common sense, why? Because it exposes the shia fallacy? Why? Because hadith books respect wives of the prophet? Why? Because hadith books respect sahaba?
FOR you examples of your IMAMS but for us you tell us along with Qadiyanis, "oh you don't need example of your prophet, we can't confirm if sayings attributed to the prophet are really his..."
Allah SAVED everything that Hazrat Ali said, but Allah could not save/preserve what his last great prophet said??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
:-| erm .. why couldnt we confirm where these quotes originate from? They're pretty reliabe where scholars are concerened, hence its up to you to do youre research and update youre knowledge rather than sit there and question on a BB..
and dont go off on a sectarian rant, youre post'll only be removed.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
But the question remains:
Allah SAVED everything that Hazrat Ali said, but Allah could not save/preserve what his last great prophet said??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
[quote]
They're pretty reliabe where our scholars are concerened,
[/quote]
Which scholars? Only your scholars are reliable? What happens to your common sense when it comes to hadith books followed by majority of Muslims and have been for centuries? Your common sense tells you that Allah magically saved everything that Ali uttered from his mouth but there is no "solid" evidence or "confirmation" about what his great prophet uttered? Allah couldn't? Why such disrespect and bias towards **status **of Mohammad and his Prophethood?
Ali ka naam aye to wah wah kartey ho aur Mohammad ki dafa chup lag jati hai? Everything is possible for Allah when Ali is involved but when its mohammad, Allah just fails? Common sense?
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Allah SAVED everything that Hazrat Ali said, but Allah could not save/preserve what his last great prophet said??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Which scholars? Only your scholars are reliable? What happens to your common sense when it comes to hadith books followed by majority of Muslims and have been for centuries? Your common sense tells you that Allah magically saved everything that Ali uttered from his mouth but there is no "solid" evidence or "confirmation" about what his great prophet uttered? Allah couldn't? Why such disrespect and bias towards **status **of Mohammad and his Prophethood?
jaan leva, how old are you? im asking because there sees to be some serious gap in knowledge and understanding here. who said there are no sayings of the Prophet (saw)? If thats what you think, then thats pretty lame dude. really lame.
either way, Imam Ali was a great person in all respects, so try not to get knots in your stomach everytime his (as) name is mentioned. you dont want to get ulcer do you.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
I dont think the dispute is on the personalities but on the authenticity of words attributed to them. I think questions are fair. I have asked the same questions about hadeeth in sunni books and have the same questions about colelctions in shia books. but the thread so far has failed to give any real info.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Ma Mooli, don't get mad.
Let's go back to what you said about Hadith...
[QUOTE]
how do we know any quote or hadith is factual and not attributed? You refer to scholars and thier research and if you're not happy, you go out and do you're own.
i guess common sense is not that common is it.
[/QUOTE]
Now go back to my first post in this thread?
See why I asked and you fell right into the trap... I question what you hold as "authentic" and you couldn't help but ask "how do we know hadith is authentic..." and then I hit you with bunch of questions, and you are struck dumb.
My questions still stand, answer if you are truthful and don't have a knot somewhere... because tumarey kehney se mujey kuch nahi hona, koe ulcer nahi ho ga. Ulcer ho chuka hai aur wo tumari judgement ko.
Now, please answer my questions:
Which scholars are you talking about? Which books? Those that curse sahaba and wives of the prophet? Those that write disrespectful things about wives of the prophet and his sahaba? Of course, I would like to know if I am wrong...
Your common sense tells you that Allah magically saved everything that Ali uttered from his mouth but there is no "solid" evidence or "confirmation" about what his great prophet uttered? Allah couldn't? Why such disrespect and bias towards **status **of Mohammad and his Prophethood?
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Ofcourse the questions are fair an square, and theres no issue with that. A couple a folks have asked how do we know its reliable, my response to them is do you're research on these ahadith or refer to your relevent scholars, books because where our scholars are concerned, these quotes are pretty authentic and thats good enough for us, buts its not good enough for everyone...so instead of asking questions on a bb, the common sense thing to do is go and find out.
im not sure what jaan leva is asking or what point hes trying to make, except for the fact that apparently we have no hadith from the Prophet..? which is not true by any means, so being a neutral, perhaps you can explain where he's coming from...?
i think actually theres been a misunderstanding, if you (jaan leva) think that i asked you to use your common sense to judge the aunthenticity of an ahadith, then youre mistaken, because i didnt... and would never do that. Thats what scholars are there for, they spend their lives studying hadith and seperating the weak from the authentic chain of narrations...we leave it up to them. So if thats the argument you were using, then i think you misunderstood my point entirely.
My common sense point was merely on doing you're own reasearch and not on judging the authenticity of hadith.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
k here you go folks, the quotes in the original posts were taken from Nahjul Balagha (Peak of Eloquence), a collection of sermons of Imam ALi (as).
You can read the background and its authenticity here. Its pretty long but worth it. especially the last section, ‘Misconception about Nahjul balagha’.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
I think people’s hope in bringing forth these questions is that there may be more knowledgeable people around. Maybe that is not the case here as you say and ppl with questions should go do research themselves or ask others or wait to see if more knolwdgeable ppl could answer these inquiries.