Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
So, by that token, **research **done by Bukhari and Muslim for decades to compile hadiths of the prophet Mohammad does hold some authencity?
Or are we suppose to disgregard their research/work/effort and do our own research in order to authenticate decades of research/work done by Bukhari and Muslim and others?
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
I think his question is that if sayings of hazrat ali are authentic then why is it hard to believe that hadeeth is not authentic, because as critical as Hazrat Ali is to Islamic history, he is not the prophet. i think thats what he is saying, and that if these sayings are indeed true, then the compiled hadeeth are even more likely than these to be true
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
hadith complilation and historical reports were compiled in an era when the ummah has already been divided along political and religious lines
The compilers and the narraters ( which they prefered) brought their biases (conciously or subcounciously)into that research that is why we see that the same incident reported from different sources will great variations.
This is true for both shia and sunni hadith compilers and historians
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
das reich i think so too.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Actually, writing of sayings of the Prophet goes back as far as when Prophet was alive...
How do you know the narrators brought their biases into research? Why would ANYBODY in their rightmind INVENT lies and attribute it to the Prophet and his sahaba?
We can agree on stuff like "narrators must have brought their biases...." but not on the hadith it self... its funny. How do we know that narrators had biases? If we know that for sure, then why don't we know the authenticity of the hadith for sure? Why are we so sure about character of the narrator and not what he is saying?
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Jaan leva this should be a diff topic then, but do you know the count of ahadeeth that were tossed out by Muslim and Bokhari? and what are the reasons that they themselves have labelled many as weak hadeeth. so forget about anyone saying that there were biases or false stuff injected in there, look at the facts, why else would so much be discarded.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Or are we suppose to disgregard their research/work/effort and do our own research in order to authenticate decades of research/work done by Bukhari and Muslim and others?
Ill have to split this discussion, because its gone off track, but all i have to say is we have a complete different literature source, and although there are some similiar ahadith in both sects, bukhari and muslim do not really figure in it for the reason being they're source and criteria for 'authentic' hadith was different to the criteria most shia scholars follow for thier hadith classification system.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Do shia scholars have any Hadith classification system?
To best of my knowledge shia Hadith have never been classified into authentic, wierd, fabricated etc.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
[quote]
How do you know the narrators brought their biases into research? Why would ANYBODY in their rightmind INVENT lies and attribute it to the Prophet and his sahaba?
if this was not the case then how come some hadith are not authentic
the mere fact that ALL hadith are not authentic implies that someone somewhere did fabricate ahadith
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How do we know that narrators had biases?
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the whole concept of biography of hadith narraters was born out of this neccesaity
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If we know that for sure, then why don't we know the authenticity of the hadith for sure?
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i am not a historian by any means but this much i know that nothing in history 100 % sure if reported from one source alone ....its all about probablities
one incident reported from 3 different narraters from 3 different political inclinations is more likely to be true than one incident reported from 10 narraters from the same political group.
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Why are we so sure about character of the narrator and not what he is saying?
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thats where the problem lies
if the compiler is of the opposite political group than the narrater then he will obviously classify that hadith as weak.
as far as compilation of hadith in Prophets time is concerned we only have historical references that point to that no text that was handed down by the Prophet
In that time it was not neccesary to write them as the sahaba who remembered them were alive.
Their was no need to even put Quran in the form of a text in those days] as so many qurra were there ...
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
[quote]
if this was not the case then how come some hadith are not authentic
the mere fact that ALL hadith are not authentic implies that someone somewhere did fabricate ahadith
[/quote]
Those that are not authentic WERE rejected, weren't they? And even when people tried to inject them into the hadith system, they were pulled and were rejected again.
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the whole concept of biography of hadith narraters was born out of this neccesaity
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And what do we find?
[quote]
i am not a historian by any means but this much i know that nothing in history 100 % sure if reported from one source alone ....its all about probablities
one incident reported from 3 different narraters from 3 different political inclinations is more likely to be true than one incident reported from 10 narraters from the same political group.
[/quote]
Each man reporting the incident must be judged **individually **first before anything can be said or assumed about the incident itself.
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thats where the problem lies
if the compiler is of the opposite political group than the narrater then he will obviously classify that hadith as weak.
as far as compilation of hadith in Prophets time is concerned we only have historical references that point to that no text that was handed down by the Prophet
In that time it was not neccesary to write them as the sahaba who remembered them were alive.
Their was no need to even put Quran in the form of a text in those days] as so many qurra were there...
[/quote]
Muslims of that time were much more tolerant and respectful of each other than later years and especially today. So, I don't buy this baseless assumption that since there were different "groups" *(again, how do we know for sure that there were infact different groups when knowledge of that assumption comes to us from hadithes we are trying to prove as false????) *that somehow that would keep people from telling the truth about practices of ISLAM or attribute something to Prophet which he never said.
I didn't say Prophet handed the books, PEOPLE/SAHABA wrote down what prophet uttered from his mouth.
Again, your argument is mostly based on assumption and not facts or logical thought. If there was no need to write down anything then why were major treaties written down instead of having all sahaba witness? Why we are told to write our affairs with each other so we may not forget?
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Jaan Leva nay farmaya
*Those that are not authentic WERE rejected, weren't they? And even when people tried to inject them into the hadith system, they were pulled and were rejected again. *
so you are saying that the compilers were 100% accurate?
*Muslims of that time were much more tolerant and respectful of each other than later years and especially today. *
errr the the current compilations did not get put together for a long time after the prophet's death, and the tolerance of respectfulness of muslims for each other was demonstrated in the murder of a couple of caliphs, torturing and killing the family of the prophet. With that sort of tolerance and respect around, no wonder ppl want to question the stuff that was written in books that took place even further after those incidents.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
Fraudz,
I only pointed out the fact that the hadiths were rejected so the compilers did have some type of checks on what to include and what not to include based on various factors and principles of science of hadith and their collection.
[QUOTE]
errr the the current compilations did not get put together for a long time after the prophet's death, and the tolerance of respectfulness of muslims for each other was demonstrated in the murder of a couple of caliphs, torturing and killing the family of the prophet. With that sort of tolerance and respect around, no wonder ppl want to question the stuff that was written in books that took place even further after those incidents.
[/QUOTE]
When I say MUSLIMS, I use the word in *general *terms. And those who killed caliphs were small number of outcasts and they pretty much stepped out of Muslimhood when they went on blood spilling rampage.... the general toleration and respect among muslims was still there knowing the fact that musilm leaders had been murdered. The shia-vs-sunni conflict and fights are unheard of until the arrival of imperial terrorists in Muslim regions.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
[quote] Those that are not authentic WERE rejected, weren't they? And even when people tried to inject them into the hadith system, they were pulled and were rejected again.
different compilers rejected different hadith ...who will decide which compiler is better
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And what do we find?
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you can find the biography of each narrater their lifestory and their inclinations ....
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Each man reporting the incident must be judged **individually **first before anything can be said or assumed about the incident itself.
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yes thats what i am saying too ...but what is the criterea for his truthfulness?
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So, I don't buy this baseless assumption that since there were different "groups" *(again, how do we know for sure that there were infact different groups when knowledge of that assumption comes to us from hadithes we are trying to prove as false????) *
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because these same people have been highly critical of each other
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I didn't say Prophet handed the books, PEOPLE/SAHABA wrote down what prophet uttered from his mouth.
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and you assume that their was NO DIFFERENCE in what the different sahaba narrated
[quote]
Again, your argument is mostly based on assumption and not facts or logical thought. If there was no need to write down anything then why were major treaties written down instead of having all sahaba witness? Why we are told to write our affairs with each other so we may not forget?
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dont misunderstand me i am not against writing down ahadith at all ....
thats why i mentioned "in those days " there was no need since the narraters were alive and numerous
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
[quote]
I only pointed out the fact that the hadiths were rejected so the compilers did have some type of checks on what to include and what not to include based on various factors and principles of science of hadith and their collection.
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true but the methods of selection differ and non of them are foul proof ....you can you say my method is better than yours....but what definitive proof is there ?
[quote]
When I say MUSLIMS, I use the word in *general *terms. And those who killed caliphs were small number of outcasts and they pretty much stepped out of Muslimhood when they went on blood spilling rampage
[/quote]
why should those who killed other muslims other than caliphs/family of prophet(saw) be any better?, and given the scale of intra-muslim conflict that is majority of the ummah
furthermore those who sat and did nothing also violated the Quranic verse 49:9
....
[quote]
the general toleration and respect among muslims was still there
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All i can say that majority of these scholars were not as biased in their views as people of today
thats why we find certain things in tabari that sunnis will never believe and things in yaqubi that shias reject. and these are historians who can be considered partisan in their times.
and who are the "imperial terrorist"
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
And who can verify that those biographies are error free and not biased. I have not been able to come across biographies of ahadith narrators other than the 4 Khalifas, of more than a few pages. If they exist, they are certainly not available in English except through a few books, which provide nothing but superficial information.
Can anyone tell me who wrote down their biographies? Biographical matieral is probably only available from not more than 1 or 2 people about the companions or hadith narrators.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
[QUOTE]
different compilers rejected different hadith ...who will decide which compiler is better
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There is no competition among the compilers nor are we trying to establish if ther was any...
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[QUOTE]
you can find the biography of each narrater their lifestory and their inclinations
yes thats what i am saying too ...but what is the criterea for his truthfulness?
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And what inclination did individuals such as Imam Bukhari and Muslim have? Their motive? Its benefit?
Criteria of anybody's truthfulness is their character... and how they conduct themselves in daily affairs, from as small as feeding your animals to your family.
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because these same people have been highly critical of each other
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Says who? Critical, how?
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and you assume that their was NO DIFFERENCE in what the different sahaba narrated
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Depends on how/where/when each one heard the prophet speak...
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dont misunderstand me i am not against writing down ahadith at all ....
thats i i mentioned "in those days " there was no need since the narraters were alive and numerous
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You are not understanding my point: If narrators and numerous and alive then why write down your treaties? Obviously, because they are important? So, with same token, what prophet says from his mouth (and its not in the quran) is also important, more important than some treaty, correct?
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
[quote] And who can verify that those biographies are error free and not biased.
they are not but if a narrater is verified as truthful by both shias and sunnis then the chances are that he is more trustworthy than one which is trusted by one side alone
[quote]
I have not been able to come across biographies of ahadith narrators other than the 4 Khalifas, of more than a few pages. If they exist, they are certainly not available in English except through a few books, which provide nothing but superficial information.
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that is so true sadly ...in english very little is avalible
[quote]
Can anyone tell me who wrote down their biographies? Biographical matieral is probably only available from not more than 1 or 2 people about the companions or hadith narrators
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1 or 2 are wellknown like lbn hajar's Tahdhib al-tahdhib
but biographies have been written by other scholars as well but they are not as widely known
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
[quote] There is no competition among the compilers nor are we trying to establish if ther was any...
that occurs inevitably what if one hadith is sahih according to bukhari but not according to tirmidhi?.
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And what inclination did individuals such as Imam Bukhari and Muslim have? Their motive? Its benefit?
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they would obviously be inclined to narrate the merits of those indiviuals more who they considered to be the best after the Prophet
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Criteria of anybody's truthfulness is their character... and how they conduct themselves in daily affairs, from as small as feeding your animals to your family.
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and how can we find that out?.... through historical works
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Says who? Critical, how?
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.read history you will find out
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Depends on how/where/when each one heard the prophet speak...
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okay understandable but then both versions should be acceptable and we should simply agree to disagree ....no point in arguing about it
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You are not understanding my point: If narrators and numerous and alive then why write down your treaties? Obviously, because they are important? So, with same token, what prophet says from his mouth (and its not in the quran) is also important, more important than some treaty, correct?
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....but any proof that Prophet ordered a compilation of his writings in his lifetime? The Prophet himself was very particular about what was written in the treaties like treaty of medina and hudhaibiyah.
Things might have been written informally by the sahaba but the Prophet left behind no such official compilation.
Re: Imam Ali (as) Saying: Taken from Peak of Eloquence
sure they had checks and as a result they cleaned them up considerably, but the fact that they have hadeeth they could nither really accept or reject goes to show that their tools/processes/approac had limitations.
as far as the term muslims, I just gave examples of some immediate stuff that took place in our early history. here is what I want you to do. Go read islamic history from the time of the prophet’s death until these books were compiled, and then revisit your statement about the quality, sincerity, and look at it from an objective viewpoint
and again…if the muslims of that era were oh so good, then the 10s of thousands of hadeeth that were considered fake and tossed out, where did they come from?