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Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** If you were familiar with the process and time period of revelations, you'd know the answer. Allah in his infinite wisdom released Qur'an to people over a lengthy period so they can ask all the questions of their lives and verses could come to explain them. You can't achieve that with a Book in a tomb.**
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You contradict yourself. In His finite wisdom, couldn't Allah have come up with a book covering everything? Did He have to take 26 years and answer questions as they came. This shows that He did not know what the questions would be.
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Also, previous scriptures had come through Prophets, so it made perfect sense to use a messenger again.**
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Not sound logic.
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Do you think Allah's previous scriptures and the message therein is more important or the 'sunnah' of the prophets who brought it?
Becaue if you select the latter, Luke and Paul and the rest would have you believe Jesus was the son of God.**
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You are saying this on the basis of what you see today of the corrupted scriptures. Do you know when and by who, Jesus was made a son of God?
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Now did Jesus lie?? Absolutely not. Surely the fabrications started in accounts that were compiled 100 years after his death.
The disciples were righteous people, and I don't have evidence of them being thick skulled or completely illiterate that they didn't care to write things down or make notes or memorize. Even today biblical scholars have more handwritten manuscripts than we could care to read.
Despite all that, we believe these books were corrupted. Then why such carelessness and blind acceptance on our part when it comes to Hadith accounts?**
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I don't see the sense in your argument. You justify the original scriptures, then deal with corruption and then suddenly question reliance on hadith collections.
The scriptures were recorded, but subsequent generations have corrupted them to suit their preferences.
Hadeeth collections were made in a totally different environment and basis and have remained uncorrupted.
Can you please confirm that my understanding of what you were trying to say is correct.
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This is actually the answer to your first question in itself. The Sahaba converted to Islam. The Prophet remained around them to facilitate Allah's grand plan of giving his revelation a stronger political platform to be able to propagate.
What would have happened if a messenger had arrived in a weak nation for a few months with a Book from a tomb, handed it over to some people and then disappeard?
Would the religion have propagated like it did? The Prophet was not just a religious figure but an astute statesman and a Political Leader and an accomplished General. Under his guidance Islam spread like wild fire.
However the Prophet never made up his own religion but warned and taught and judged between people using ONLY the Qur'an (6:19), (4:105).
People close to him observed his rules. Hundred years later however due to power struggles creeping into the Islamic state, the true spiritual teachings of obeying Allah Alone took a back seat and personalities took the wheel of Islam.
But Allah in his infinite wisdom promised to keep the Qur'an preserved for those who reflect and possess knowledge. The moment you read it thoroughly and with a clean and open mind, the lies and fabrications you've lived with all your life become clear and you get guidance.**
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What you say is accepted by the majority. But suddenly you switch off teh correct understanding and come out with a totally unacceptable "The moment you read it thoroughly and with a clean and open mind, the lies and fabrications you've lived with all your life become clear and you get guidance. How do you draw this conclusion and from where. Brother, it is only a figment of your mind. Once you open your mind and try to understand will you ralise that it is you who are at fault in your conjecture.
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May Allah give all of us the capability to read and understand and ponder and reflect on his revelations.**
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Ameen.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
First of all, we will establish that the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, not only received the verses of the Qur’ân from God, but he also received other revelation from time to time which is now preserved in the form of Ahaadeeths. The following examples show how the Qur’ân itself refers to this revelation:
According to verse 144 of Surah al-Baqarah (Chapter 2 of the Qur’ân), God Almighty commanded the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, to face the Ka’bah (in Mecca) in his daily prayers instead of Jerusalem.
“We see the turning of thy face to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction.”
But why was the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, facing Jerusalem before that? Verse 143 (of Surah al-Baqarah) shows that God Himself had appointed Jerusalem as the initial Qiblah (i.e. direction faced when praying) for the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him. “And we appointed the Qiblah to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (from the Faith).”
The appointment of the previous Qiblah is referred to as being in the past. But there is no verse in the Qur’ân which commands the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, to face Jerusalem at the beginning of his mission! Therefore, the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, must have received this guidance from God in a form other than the Qur’ân. As we have said above, this alternative revelation is preserved in the Sunnah.
In verse 3 of Surah al-Tahreem (Chapter 66 of the Qur’ân), a certain incident is cited.
“When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives, and she then divulged it, and God made it known to him, he confirmed a part of it and repudiated a part. Then when he told her of it, she said, ‘Who told you this?’ He said, ‘He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)’.”
We must consider carefully the phrases “God made it known to him” and “He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted”, The question is, how did God make it known to him and tell him? Certainly not via the Qur’ân, since there is no mention of it anywhere else in the Book of God. Therefore, the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, must have been told via revelation from God which is not part of the Qur’ân.
In verse 5 of Surah al-Hashr (Chapter 59 of the Qur’ân), a reference is made to the expedition against the rebellious Jewish tribe of Banu Nadir, during which the Muslims cut down some palm-trees and left others alone.
“Whether ye (O Muslims) cut down the tender palm-trees or ye left them standing on their roots, it was by leave of God, and in order that He might cover the rebellious transgressors with shame.”
Here, their action is attributed to the “leave of God” given to them. Nowhere in the Qur’ân is such permission found. Hence God guided the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, in this matter but not via the Qur’ân.
According to verses 17-18 of Surah al-Qiyamah (Chapter 75), God took it upon Himself to collect the Qur’ân. The Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, directed the scribes of the Qur’ân to arrange its surahs (chapters) in the order found today; this is not the order in which they were revealed. Therefore, since this was God’s responsibility, it shows that He guided the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, with respect to the order of the surahs.
These are just a few examples out of many which leave no doubt that the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, used to receive revelation from God either directly or through the medium of the Angel Gabriel (Arabic: Jibreel). A part of this revelation was preserved word for word under the title of the Qur’ân. All other revelation was embodied either in the Prophet’s sayings or in his practices which were carefully preserved by the Companions as the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him.
I think that we have had enough discussion. Afterall, everyone is responsible for his own deeds. The only responsibility is to point out to others what is right and what is wrong (Amar Bil Maroof, Wa Nahee Anil Munkar).
PA has to go in front of Allah on the day of judgement and so do we. We will see there who is right and who is wrong. See you there
Well said brother. As long as we have conveyed the correct message, we are absolved of responsibility as the change is only when the person wants and Allah wills.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
If I understand it correctly, ‘Sunnah’ is used as an ‘alternate’ Sharia. I have no objections to following The True Sunnah that upholds the Qur’anic laws and does not add or subtract from them.
Sadly majority of what people follow today are laws and beliefs and practices totally contrary to Qur’anic teachings and hence cannot be true sunnah but fabrications.
[qoute]What the brother has asked is the dates. You have replied months.
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The brother is following conjecture not Qur’an or he would know that Hajj is to be performed in specified MONTHS not a month (2:197) The sacred months are known and Hajj can be performed ‘therein’ (2:197). It’s for specified days (2:203), (22:28) and the number of days is determined by the life of a crescent (2:189).
*The Hajj itself was originally an Autumn rite apparently persecuting the dying sun to bring on the winter rains. Pilgrims would rush in a body to the hollow of Muzdalifa, the abode of the Thunder God, make an all-night vigil on the plain by Mt. Arafat, hurl pebbles at the three sacred pillars of Mina and offer an animal sacrifice" (Armstrong 1991 62).
One should pause to consider the following fact: The Ka’aba was holy ground and a great measure of the holiness was its religious tolerance. The Ka’aba was a place where all the faithful could assemble to honour a time-immemorial tradition. All forms of violence between any parties were forbidden in Mecca for four months during the Hajj.*
Doesn’t Allah know what you’ll do in your lifetime? Yet he lets you live your whole life to do what you choose to do.
Allah thus revived Islam and made it the final religion by revealing it over a period of time. If I understand it correctly, your point then is that naoozobillah Allah needed a Prophet to explain Allah’s revelations.
Not sound logic how? Didn’t the previous scriptures come through Prophets? Weren’t the Christians and Jews waiting for a MAN not a “book in a cave” to come after Christ? Yet you reject Allah’s Signs and his infinite wisdom.
By people. And the same kind of people had the power, will and satan’s misguidance to corrupt the words and teachings of the Prophet, EXCEPT the Qur’an which Allah promised he’d keep in tact.
If you think Christians could corrupt the words of Jesus, what in your opinion was keeping the Muslims from doing it?? There are good or bad in EVERY religion. Not everyone with a ‘razi alla tala unhu’ is pious and sinless. There were numerous hypocrites and later even more a rift in Islam, two parallel caliphates and what not.
How were the Hadith different from the colleciton of the Gospels?? Christians have the Dead Sea Scrolls type of documents. Where are the source of Hadiths preserved? isn’t it a major leap of faith to trust memories of hundreds of different individuals? were they all superhuman never to forget anything? why is the hadith literature above any critique and analysis.
For your information NONE of the serious historians derive ANY information from the Hadith OR Gospel accounts.. so much for their acceptance as authentic literature.. they however do accept the authenticity of the Qur’an, and try to critique/reallign modern day historical and archaelogical discoveries with the Historical/Scientific consistencies within Qur’an.
My conjecture?? I am sticking to the Qur’an. Does that look like conjecture to you? The person working with the limited source of information is naturally assumed to be relying on less conjecture. You agree with the consistency of the Qur’an.. at least I hope you do.. I fully agree with it. ALL of it. You then try and include a separate source for your so called ‘explanation of the Qur’an’. I don’t buy it. So now who has a greater chance of relying on fabrications? Me using ONLY the Qur’an or you Using All Sahih and other hadiths?
Another Christian tradition that crept into Islam through the fabricated accounts of Hadith.. never to be found in the Qur’an.
Yes let’s do. I think I’ve said what I needed to say and have already heard what I knew would be the responses.
I never argued the first path. I vehemently contend and disagree with the second part that the revelations he received are the ones ‘preserved’ as Ahaadeeths.
(2:144) Do you know why and how the new Qibla should ‘please’ the prophet?
When accounts preserve history, I have no objection to it, because there are other historians which I can cross check and find the truth. Also latest discoveries and competitive viewpoints through discussion always let us find out the truth.
It’s when this guidance from Allah is termed a ‘second source of law’ is when I raise an objection to such use of these accounts.
(66:3) When allah says “He told me Who knows is well-acquainted” through the Prophet, it automatially becomes information for us that Allah is acquainted with everything, even what we do not see. And ALSO the Prophet did not know what his wife had said behind his back (unlike Abu Huraira’s hadiths of the Prophet knowing what goes behind him in Salat) and revealed his communications meant only for her ears only but ALLAH is all knowing and aware.
The message to us is then simple that Allah is all knowing and Aware. However people will try and derail the teaching and use the verses to prove their theories of some alternate divine revelation not included in the Qur’an but left to a hundred odd disciples to relate.
[Al-Imran 3:166) What ye suffered on the day the two armies Met, was with the leave of God, in order that He might test the
believers,-
fa be-izn allah It means with Allah’s will or allowance or leave. May not deal with a specific law. And once again, accounts of history which I do not deny would have happened but have NOTHING to do with religious laws for us.
Dude we are not Prophets. Qur’an is for OUR guidance and Allah was there for the guidance of the Prophet. Don’t get deluded and mix up the two realities.
(75:17) shows again that Allah is guiding the Prophet outside the Qur’an in matters that are related to fulfilling HIS duty and mission of conveying the Qur’an successfully.
I love how we arrive from occasional guidance to help the Prophet carry out his mission to this clandestine, ‘carefully preserved’ “second book of Islam.”
You are certainly unaware of the thin evidence behind the Hadith collections. Claims to superhuman memory just doesn’t cut it in the real world .. sorry.
Oh I can’t wait!! And you’d acknowledge that I am driven by that same desire as yours to proclaim the truth as I understand it. Just becasue I am not in the majority, it certainly does not mean I am on the wrong path. History has taught us that the one’s on the right path are ALWAYS in the minority.
My only wish is that Allah gives me the ability to remember and identify the people who disagreed and thought I was loony.
Not to deride them, just so they can bear witness that I DID tell them to turn to Allah Alone.
Let’s agree to disagree.
[al-Qasas 28:75]And WE shall take out from every people a witness and WE shall say, `Bring your proof.’ Then they will know that the truth belongs to ALLAH alone. And that which they used to forge will all be lost unto them.
These are GOD’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
Edited 13:30 Hours, US Central Time
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited December 07, 2001).]