Hadeeth literature and its authenticity

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Assalam o Alaikum!

Several brothers on this site have said or implied that tehy do not believe in ahadeeth. One brother has called it a historical rendition. Then, some have mentioned the time lag between the Prophetic period and the actual compilation by the scholars. One of them has questioned the authenticity of Abu Huraira (radhi Allaho anho).

In order to clear doubts, I have done some research on the web and have come up with some authentic data for all to read. In summary,

  • the saha sitta are authentic
  • the companions were chosen by Allah and cannot be doubted in terms of reliability
  • the ahadeeth were written at the time, and memorised
  • the compilation by Bukhari, Muslim, et al, was with the strictest precaution.

The links are:
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=2004
http://65.193.50.117/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=6981&dgn=2
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/sh_ish/afor.htm#F2

I believe this should suffice for the time being. If anyone has any doubts after reading these links, I believe we should have a sensible discussion.

The rules should be that the minority view has to give the dalayil to prove why they do not agree with the majority view. And, there should be no personal attacks on anyone or any school of thought. Anybody not agreeiong to abide by these rules may open his/her own chain.

Wassalam

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

2

Thanks for posting these links.

3

It’s not new, whenever radical ideas and factual discussions ensue, those willing to fight dogmas are in an extreme minority.

Majority view has always been that of lemmings and blind followers, be it religion or politics.

I read the link it doesn’t impress me one bit. Same old story about ‘scholars’ taking utmost care and taking liberty with translating ‘Dhikar’ into ‘Quran AND Sunna’..

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 30, 2001).]

4

FF thanks for the links.

PA Are there any hadeeths that you do believe? or youre not impressed with any?

5

May I give an example?
In the Holy Quran there is no mention of a ban on Music, the word closest to being used is 'idle talk' people who condemn music often quote Hadith which do not quote the Prophet precisely.

6

[quote]
PA Are there any hadeeths that you do believe? or youre not impressed with any?
[/quote]

Hmmm maybe the one in which the Prophet has told people NOT to write anything off of him except the Qur'an.

Which is why writing and compiling Hadiths was prophibited till Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz removed the ban.

.... Honorable intentions perhaps.. but a Grave mistake and disservice to the religion IMO.

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited December 02, 2001).]

7

ummm i am little confuse submitter bro.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

how di u know that prophet told ppl not to write anythgin off him except the quran. does it says in the quran that he told ppl not to write haddith…

and also hwo to u manage to pray? i mena in quran it doensot give direct descrpiton on hwo to perform ritual aspects fo prayer. hwo do u pray bro?

[This message has been edited by iqra_786 (edited December 02, 2001).]

8

thanks for posting that, it cleared up soem of my doubts

9

My 'momin' sis,

[quote]
how di u know that prophet told ppl not to write anythgin off him except the quran.
[/quote]

Mr. laparwa inquired if there was any Hadith i thought was correct and my response was yes I can take (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12, 21, 39) as one correct Hadith. History also proves it right since all Caliphs maintained the ban on writing Hadiths. And later, anyone who didn't follow this rule was surely disobeying the messenger.

Sure, Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz did a good thing by putting an end to the despicable Muawian tradition of maligning the name of Ali from the pulpit, but still doesn't absolve him of the 'crime' of allowing people to 'compile' hadiths.

[quote]
and also hwo to u manage to pray?
[/quote]

If I find details of bowing, prostrating etc in a Book, does that automatically make it a book of commandments? If someone observed the Prophet and his followers and wrote it down, does a collection of such observations gain the status of Sharia?

Revisit the Hadiths on Salat, Tell me in which ones the Prophet is reported as saying "Gather round people, this is how we will ofer Salat.. so many rakaat, such and such ayat here, then bow etc etc".

nope, that didn't happen.

And as for the collection process.. it's ENTIRELY treating human beings as Gods who can't utter truth, can't fabricate, can't forget and totally ignores assessing the content.

Considering the number of hadiths people claim to have looked at and verified in their lifetimes it amounts to something like fifteen minutes a hadith for verification.

I wouldn't base my religion based on such research. Maybe others are more trusting.

10

We err when we only believe things selectively, based on how they conform to our line of thinking.

The brother does not believe in 1000s of hadeeth, but believes in a solitary one that was abrogated, much to his dismay. If he is sincere in his pursuit for the truth he will find that writing of hadeeth was approved by Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) and not by Omar (radhi Alaho anho).

In another thread, he has been asked whther he relies more on tradition, to which he has not responded, to the best of my knowledge.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

11

Fact Finder,

to me Hadith = Tradition.

These are books of history and have to be treated with the same skepticism that you would treat a history book.

12

bro PakistaniAbroad, hadeeth are of several types. One is answer to people's questions, 2nd is when Prophet PBUH told something to his companions without being asked of, 3rd is what Prophet PBUH did for a certain act, 4th is when Prophet PBUH didn't disapprove when something happened etc.

Hadith is not only ONE type where he would ask people to gather around and then teach.

BTW, how did you (PA) learn about salaat?

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

13

salaam all
Is it not strange that in this day and age places such as SOAS, Sourbonne, Princeton, Oxford adn Cambridge to mention a few pay milloins of pounds for people to study hadeeth adn hadeeth science. Yet we muslims reject haddeth. Mainly due to ignorance on what a 'hadeeth is'. I ask my friend who rejects hadeeth to simply explain this. If the books of hadeeth are simply historical tradtions recirded by men who might have forgotten or erred in naaration the why does this not apply to the Qur'aan as well. You see the very people who wrote down the Qur'aan also wrote down the hadeeth. This is because the hadeeth is the explanation of the Qur'aan. Brother one cannot fully understand the Qur'aan without the appreciation of asbaa an nuzool. And the asbaa can only be found in hadeeth narration. I am going to make a revolutionary, adn somewhat controversial, statement. The very scepticism that you ask of us viz. hadeeth should be, and was by the sahaba who had the responsibility of compiling the Qur'aan, applied to the Qur'aan. All I can suggest is that you revisit historical archives and try ton ascertain at what point were muslims told that we should stop relying on hadeeth literature. I do hope that once you find that watershed in our history the very date should set your mind at rest as to the reasons for the doubt in hadeeth.

14

Brother Changez,

Majority of today's muslims follow 'Sahih' ahadiths.

Do you know the criteria for filing something under 'Sahih'?

Sahih - sound. Imâm al-Shaficî states the following requirements for a hadîth, which is not Mutawâtir, to be acceptable

  • "each reporter should be trustworthy in his religion;
  • he should be known to be truthtul in his narrating, to understand what he narrates, to know how a different expression can alter the meaning, and to report the wording of the hadîth verbatim, not only its meaning".

The stress is totally on the individual and not on the content or meaning.

Islamic history has had rulers who banned questioning the characters of associates of the Prophet. It had political reasons and also to try and unite the ummah.. however it had drastic effects when people fabricated lies and used these respectable sahaba's name.

All one needs to do is read these 'Sahih' collections of Hadith to find out how absurd some of them really are and continuously contradict each other.

You will read a Sahih hadith in which the Prophet said it was ok if innocent women and children were killed because afterall they had the same parents and grandparents as the ones on whom the attack was waged.

In the next hadith on the same page you'd read the exact opposite!

I was reading the Sahih Bukhari yesterday.. Honestly I still haven't found the complete way of praying and whatever we pray inside our prayers today.

And once again. If we do not find our current practices and customs and rules in the Qur'an, does that make our current ways wrong or the Qur'an wrong?

15

PA you have a peculiar habit of skipping specfic issues. I have stated that you only accept one hadeeth, and that because it conforms to your thinking. But you do not know that it was abrogated and Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) authorised writing of hadeeth. You have ignored this.

In another place you have questioned the trustworthiness of abu Huraira (radhi allaho anho), a man who stuck to Rasool Allah's side all the time to be able to get everything first hand. A man so dedicated is now being questioned by the likes of you. I believe it is a shame.

Then you have mentioned about content. Are you not aware that ahadeeth were matched to ensure correctness and several ahadeeth with the same subject, but with different chain of narrators were found. These are the ahadeeth that are definitely in the saha sitta. Another point worth mentioning here is that the people in the chain were so unrelated that it was impossible for them to come up with the same text.

Read and you will understand. Do not block knowledge from getting in. Being selective in seeking knowledge can be disastrous.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 03, 2001).]

16

PA,

All of your arguments would have been valid if it was only “us” who would make things happen, as if we carve the future. However, never forget that a human can try, but it is Allah who will eventually make that thing to happen.

So, if you have clear intentions, a just cause, transparent methods, then even a minute effort is magnified in the result through Allah’s blessings. Conveying the words of the Prophet (saw) is not an ordinary job. Anyone, who intends to do that with a sincerity of purpose, will be rewarded with success, if Allah wants so. And why would he not want the truth to spread?

The bottom line is that anyone who wants to prepare for the next life can try, but its upto Allah to show the right path and He has promised that. So, just keep the right intention and the right information will itself come to you.

Another thing that I would like to mention, in general, is that most of us on this forum are “neem-mullas”. If one really want to seek the truth then he should probably consult an “alim” or read a book on fiqah. His eeman would be in danger if he would just rely on this forum to look for guidance

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Wama-Alaina-Illal-Balagh

–
ramyssysIX

17

So far i’ve read otherwise, but please enlighten me with some historical links or Books to read which confirm this theory that Hadith ban wasn’t in place during the reign of the Caliphs and Omar ibn Abdul Aziz wasn’t the one who lifted this ban.

I know in his time Islam stressed on the piety and sinless nature of the sahabas and they were considered beyond reproach. Many believe Abu Huraira had been granted special memory for memorizing hadiths. However in almost all of these hadiths he’s the only narrator!

btw as I explained, Sahih DOES NOT examine the content. If they did, the Hadith about the Prophet instructing people to drink camel urine would never have made it into these books

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

ramys bro, I tread carefully because religion is a sensitive subject. Even my brother gets angry at me sometimes for saying something that to him appears radically different from our current beliefs. Thankfully he’s a PhD and knows how to think logically and I’ve managed to make him think on his own rather than follow blindly a medieval interpretation of Islam from unreliable accounts.

I hope I’m able to make a difference and make at least ONE person think clearly and for himself instead of leaving the responsibility to think and understand to ‘aalims’. If that were the case, Allah wouldn’t have said over and over in the Qur’an that he’s “thus explained his verses in detail for us to understand.”

Let’s all at least try to understand them on our own. We owe it to Allah.

Allah Knows Best

18

You have asked a very relevant question. Unfortyunately, I am in the process of moving and have packed all my books. Hence, I shall have to rely on the inyternet, which is good in a way as it will save me from typing and I shall just give links or reproduce parts. Please bear with me and read the following, some of which will specifically answer your question above and others will be dealing with the whole subject. Insha Allah, you will find the answers:
http://65.193.50.117/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=22394&dgn=2
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/sunnah/indispensability_of_hadith.htm
"]IslamiCity - The Global Muslim eCommunity](IslamiCity - The Global Muslim eCommunity

The last one mentions that Caliph 'Umar ibn 'Abd al-'Aziz appointed learned scholars to compile Hadith literature, but the writings preceded this action on his part. This is similar to the case of the Qur’an, which was also revised and re-compiled by two Caliphs to ensure that incorrect versions did not remain in circulation.

**

Abu Huraira’s position has also been explained in thhe links. He was a dedicated man who made efforts to stay with Rasool Allah for the sake of learning from him everything he said or did.

**

The links also explain how content is one of the main criteria. Anything that does not meet the text of the Qur’an, or is contrary to the known nature of Rasool allah can never be sahih.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 04, 2001).]

19

[quote]
The links also explain how content is one of the main criteria. Anything that does not meet the text of the Qur'an, or is contrary to the known nature of Rasool allah can never be sahih.
[/quote]

Fact Finder, please re read my earlier response to Changez. Sahih Hadiths DO NOT I repeat for your convenience once again DO NOT examine content.

And here's what I got from the link you suggested.

[quote]
Muslim scholars of Hadith studied the character and history of every person that has been known to report even a single Hadith and established whether he was a man of trust and honesty or not. If they found him trustworthy, truthful, accurate in his reporting, God-fearing, then they accepted what he has reported, provided that he had heard it from a similar trustworthy person.

....

Among those scholars of Hadith,
Al-Bukhari and Muslim stand out as the most reliable and perfectionist in their work.
The other four, At-Tirmithi, Abu Dawood, An-Nassaie and Ibn Majah occupy a position close to that of Al-Bukhari and Muslim. Hence, the compilations made by these six have acquired a higher status, since they include Hadiths of the highest authorities.

[/quote]

Now is the matter clear??

All Sahih Hadith compilations ONLY trust the narrator and of course with early Islamic Politics exalting the Sahaba to the status of 'do-no-evil' status, we were bound to have fabrications introduced and taken with extreme reverence just because the narration was from someone who had a 'razi allah unhu' as a suffix to their name and the narration starts with "The Prophet said".

Another site tries to declare this Hadith:

"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Whoever wrote, must
destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39)

as aborgated on the basis of another Hadith

“Write it for Abu Shaah.” * (al-Luqatah, 2254)*

I don't even know what Al-Luqatah is, but I'd say if it were someone who believed in Hadiths, he'd take Muslim and Hanbal over anything else. Right?

Yet another site has this as history.

[quote]

At this juncture it should be noted that the Ahadith were constantly being memorised and repeatedly reported by the Companions (Radhiallaahu Ánhu). In this domain the Ashab al-Suffah (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) played a vital role. The most famous amongst them was Abu Hurayrah (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) who chose to remain with the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) in order to learn everything that the Prophet did or said. However, he did not write down the Ahadith but is noted to have transmitted the largest number of Ahadith.

It should be pointed out here that the writing down of the Ahadith was not encouraged lest the Companions (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) confuse the Hadith with the Qur'anic text. However, despite the reluctance on the part of some Companions (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) to take part in the process of writing down the Ahadith, there were some who wrote them down, even during the lifetime of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam).

[/quote]

I personally don't buy this excuse that it would mingle with the Qur'an. People could easily have written it elsewhere in separate Books. If they knew how to write, they could put titles of Hadith on it clearly to distinguish it. Afterall they wrote other political letters and such didn't they?

Those who did write from the Prophet were letters of invitations by the Prophet to other nations to join Islam, and not his personal laws and rules and declaring haraam and halaal.

It's clear to me just why would companions of the Prophet be extremely hesitant in writing his words down. It's because they wanted to honor the commands of their Prophet, NOT to write things down off of him except Qur'an.

The very existence and observance of the rule reaffirms that Qur'an is the ONLY source of law. Accounts of the Prophet's life are important to know, learn and study, but are NOT to be mistaken as Law or Sharia, otherwise the Prophet would have in his lifetime told people to extensively and separately write his sayings and expalanations and people's observation of his actions down in a separate book to perserve forever.

Allah Knows Best

Edited: 21:04, US Central Time

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited December 04, 2001).]

20

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** I personally don't buy this excuse that it would mingle with the Qur'an. People could easily have written it elsewhere in separate Books. If they knew how to write, they could put titles of Hadith on it clearly to distinguish it. Afterall they wrote other political letters and such didn't they?

Those who did write from the Prophet were letters of invitations by the Prophet to other nations to join Islam, and not his personal laws and rules and declaring haraam and halaal.

It's clear to me just why would companions of the Prophet be extremely hesitant in writing his words down. It's because they wanted to honor the commands of their Prophet, NOT to write things down off of him except Qur'an.

The very existence and observance of the rule reaffirms that Qur'an is the ONLY source of law. Accounts of the Prophet's life are important to know, learn and study, but are NOT to be mistaken as Law or Sharia, otherwise the Prophet would have in his lifetime told people to extensively and separately write his sayings and expalanations and people's observation of his actions down in a separate book to perserve forever.

Allah Knows Best

Edited: 21:04, US Central Time

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited December 04, 2001).]**
[/quote]
Unfortunately, by using quotations you have disabled reproduction of your previous statements.

Let me clear something for you first. When you pick a quotation, try to understand the whole context first before jumping to conclusions based on your analogy.

What you have quoted has a very important sentence whicch you have totally ignored or not understood. I will quote it (in the correct way) "provided that he had heard it from a similar trustworthy person" and ask you to try and understand what it menas. If you do not understand, feel free to ask and I will try to explain it to you.

Your remark about separating hadeeth from Qqur'an while writing them down makes me wonder who I am dealing with. Brother, how would you differentiate between two statements that came out from the same source. It would only be the source that would have to say, Okay guys this is for the Qur'an or guys this is for hadeeth. I am sure you are not serious!

Just because you lack faith, you want things the way they would be acceptable to you and you do not wish to trust anybody. I believe this is a matter of paradigm. A muslim never lies and expects everybody to be truthful, unless proven otherwise. That is what you are lacking as you believe everything to be incorrect unless proven otherwise.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.