[quote]
That is what you are lacking as you believe everything to be incorrect unless proven otherwise
[/quote]
[bani Isra'il 17:36] And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.
To my knowledge, the Sahih accounts are extremely doubtful and I have no knowledge of the 'righteousness' of the narrators, besides I would rather concentrate on the message than the narrators.
**
[quote]
It's clear to me just why would companions of the Prophet be extremely hesitant in writing his words down. It's because they wanted to honor the commands of their Prophet, NOT to write things down off of him except Qur'an.
The very existence and observance of the rule reaffirms that Qur'an is the ONLY source of law. Accounts of the Prophet's life are important to know, learn and study, but are NOT to be mistaken as Law or Sharia, otherwise the Prophet would have in his lifetime told people to extensively and separately write his sayings and expalanations and people's observation of his actions down in a separate book to perserve forever.**
[/quote]
Masha allah!. All four schools of thought, the shia imams, experts in Islamic studies have all erred in considering sunnah as a vital source for shariah.
What is your opinion on Ijtehad? Do you plan to start a new mazhab or have you already started?
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
PP, do you follow Ghulam Ahmed Perweiz(Mutazalites, quranites)???
Well, that explains it.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”-juvenal
nice thought process you have there.. if someone doesn’t have beliefs identical to yours, they have to believe in whatever sect you choose for them??
[quote]
the shia imams,
[/quote]
ooooh wait.. I thought you hated their views?? why suddenly this love?
[quote]
have all erred in considering sunnah as a vital source for shariah.
[/quote]
All religions get corrupted by half-assed Mullahs and other 'scholars' who shun people from reflecting and understanding on their own and promote spoon feeding of a fixed set of ideas down everyone's throat.
[quote]
What is your opinion on Ijtehad? Do you plan to start a new mazhab or have you already started?
[/quote]
I thought you found answers to all your problems in those hadith books? why then all this talk about ijtehaad?? did Bukhari leave something out??
For me Allah's Book is complete, fully detailed and has explanations and examples of everything. I can structure my life around it without the slightest of difficulties, because HIS religion has NO hardships for it's followers.
Well, they are the only ones who reject Sunnah of the Prophet(saw) with saying that Quraan is enough. Most shias reject the sunnah of Prophet too, well atleast the authentic one. They might believe the one in Al-kafi but then again, we know how authentic al-kafi is.
So, instead of dodging the question, answer it. I am not choosing a sect for you, your actions and replies tell us where you belong. Why would I do that. If i was, my statement wouldn’t end in ‘question mark’(???), would it?
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”-juvenal
spanky, I'm not guessing your affiliations, am I??
I don't even know what Qadiani agenda is and why Maulvi's are so against them, but if they believe in one Allah and that Qur'an is the final testament, and that it was brough to us through the Last Prophet of Allah, then they should be declared Non-Sunni instead of Non-Muslim.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
[/quote]
The responses show the shallowness of your knowledege. I shall quote and show you where you have erred
**
[quote]
ooooh wait.. I thought you hated their views?? why suddenly this love?**
[/quote]
Where have I said that I hated the views of the shia imams? I have said the hadeeth concocted by the shias and attributed to their imams.
**
[quote]
All religions get corrupted by half-assed Mullahs and other 'scholars' who shun people from reflecting and understanding on their own and promote spoon feeding of a fixed set of ideas down everyone's throat.**
[/quote]
Typical stereotyped reply. We are talking about people who have spent their whole life to the study of Islam for our benefit. People like Ghazali, Shawkani, ibn al-Qayyim, Abu Zahrah, etc. It is highly unbecoming for a person with half-baked knowledge to use such language for them.
Anyway, they have, at times, differed amongst themselves on interpretations. So to say that they "promote spoon feeding of a fixed set of ideas down everyone's throat" is utter nonsense.
**
[quote]
pI thought you found answers to all your problems in those hadith books? why then all this talk about ijtehaad?? did Bukhari leave something out??**
[/quote]
Shows that you have absolutely no knowledege of what ijtehad means and includes. You are still ignorant about the position of sunnah in Islamic Law, despite postings by several brothers on what sunnah represents.
**
[quote]
For me Allah's Book is complete, fully detailed and has explanations and examples of everything. I can structure my life around it without the slightest of difficulties, because HIS religion has NO hardships for it's followers.**
[/quote]
You have been asked several times questions on how you meet your faraiz in respect of Salah, Hajj and Zakat. Please quote for our convenience the ayaat that "fully detailed and has explanations and examples of everything" about these three issues. I am unable to find it.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 06, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
I don't even know what Qadiani agenda is and why Maulvi's are so against them, but if they believe in one Allah and that Qur'an is the final testament, and that it was brough to us through the Last Prophet of Allah, then they should be declared Non-Sunni instead of Non-Muslim.
[/quote]
This is total ignorance and then conjecture. If you do not know, should you be giving an opinion? Well it seems to be your habit. The only difference here is that you have accepted your ignorance, but have not stopped from commenting.
Your statement also shows your prejudice against Ulema.
I sincerely advise you to study and understand before commenting. Anyone who tries to disseminate incorrect knowledge is guilty as long as people believe what he has written. And every action that results from such incorrect knowledge increases the sin of the original person.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
PP, I am not guessing. Your replies speak for themselves. One does not need to guess, when facts about whose ideology you follow are spilling out in your replies.
Its either the groups I named in my previous reply or that Rashid Khilafa guy, the 19ners.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
When truth spills out, denial is best defense, for sometime.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
Its ok my friend, we are not going to eat you. And don’t even TRY to bring Qadiyaanis in this, please.
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”-juvenal
Yeah.. the final defence is always that.. ask the submitter about the salaat.. surely he’ll be stumped
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
I offer Salat in the manner taught to me by my parents, but have now extensively modified it to make it for ALLAH ALONE.
btw while we’re on the topic, do you believe it’s important exactly HOW we offer Salat? If you say yes, than why do you think that the way All muslims offer it is not the same? And more importantly if it’s that important did Allah naoozobillah forget to include it in Qur’an?
Do you believe it was the prophet’s duty to explain it? If yes then was Allah naoozobillah going to commit the same mistake again, of giving a Prophet the law to see it get corrupted like previous scriptures?
Supposing it was on the Prophet to tell, then can you tell me why you pray the 2, 4, 4, 3, 4 farz of each namaaz and where you got that and other ‘arabic’ you recite in the namaaz from?
I have looked for it in Hadith accounts where Allah’s Prophet is quoted as telling people something on the lines of.. “Since the method of salaat is not in the Qur’an, Allah has asked me to tell you how many rakaats in what sequence and content and when to pray”.
Being such an important thing there MUST be a matawaatir or at least a Sahih Hadith where the Prophet taught everyone how and when to offer Salaat in clear cut terms in one or two Hadiths. Right? can you help me find them pls?
I have studied the Qur’an and found that I have to give Zakaat.. not annuallay but at “every harvest” (6:141) which in modern times means every time I get paid. There is no fixed percentage by Allah but what I can ‘afford’ (2:219) out of what I have (22:35)
See the buildup of topic from (2:215) and the mercy of Allah Who doesn’t spell out the amount till ‘they’ keep asking and then Allah reveals:
(al-Baqarah 2:219) …And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder
So do people ponder on a clear communication?
NO.. they pick up Sahih Bukhari and because his words are mightier than Allah’s in their eyes, they believe it’s 2.5%.
Manasik-e-Hajj are detailed in Qur’an. What makes you think Allah didn’t tell us to circle around the Ka’aba, (22:29) cut our hair (2:196), offer Qurbaani (22:36,37), traverse the distance between safa marva (2:158), commemorate Allah at Maqam-e-Arafat (2:198), and refrain from certain things during the sacred month (2:197, 2:217).
Allah in his mercy has allowed people to do extra on Hajj if they wish. (2:158)
Still people claim they need other books besides Allah’s Book and follow nothing but conjecture.
Allah will allow people to abrogate and fabricate the Prophet’s words, but NOT Allah’s Book.
[al-An`am 6:112] We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
[al-An`am 6:113] This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.
[al-An`am 6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
[al-An`am 6:115]The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[al-An`am 6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
WHAT MORE does Allah have to say to convince us that His Book is complete and is the ONLY source of Law??
Let us not follow conjecture. Let us all stick to Allah’s Book.
These are GOD’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited December 06, 2001).]
[quote]
Its either the groups I named in my previous reply or that Rashid Khilafa guy, the 19ners
[/quote]
Once again, you indulge in pure conjecture and once again you are wrong.
If you wish to argue, tackle my views expressed herein. Do not try and lump me with some losers and claim victory.
I could throw the flowery fabrications YOU believe in your face, but I do not wish to propagate lies against my Prophet.
Can you answer a question:
"If we (Nauzu Billah) don't need Sunnah for being a proper Muslim and if Quran is enough in itself to provide 100% guidance to a Muslim, then why did Allah need a Prophet (saw) to reveal his message upon human beings in the first place?"
He would have placed the Holy Book on a tomb stone and would have asked people to consult it!!
If Sahaba Kiram (ra) had a chance to seek guidance from the personality of Hazrat Muhammad (saw) in their lives why would Allah deprive his Ummah of this priviledge?
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**
Manasik-e-Hajj are detailed in Qur'an. What makes you think Allah didn't tell us to circle around the Ka'aba, (22:29) cut our hair (2:196), offer Qurbaani (22:36,37), traverse the distance between safa marva (2:158), commemorate Allah at Maqam-e-Arafat (2:198), and refrain from certain things during the sacred month (2:197, 2:217).
**
[/quote]
What about the dates of Hajj? Are they also mentioned in Quran or you just trust them cause your parents told you to do so.
Two faults. The deen is to be learnt from shariah sources - not from parents and 'aql. Both can lead you astray.
**
Yes.
**
They do. Slight variations in the trivial details do not mean that the ‘way’ is different. The way is exactly the same, if you know what the essentials are.
**
No. As I have said earlier. The Lawgiver has said aqeemussalata and has introduced the rule. Then He has sent His Messenger to implement the way and say “pray like me”.
**
[quote]
Do you believe it was the prophet’s duty to explain it? If yes then was Allah naoozobillah going to commit the same mistake again, of giving a Prophet the law to see it get corrupted like previous scriptures?**
[quote]
I am sorry I do not understand what you mean by “giving a Prophet the law to see it get corrupted like previous scriptures?” Do you sincerely believe that the previous scriptures were corrupted by Prophets? If you say yes, I believe you have a major problem with either your thinking or understanding.
**
I will give you some ahadeeth to show that there are ahadeeth showing the characteristics of the prayers.
Narrated 'Aisha: the mother of believers: Allah enjoined the prayer when He enjoined it, it was two Rakat only (in every prayer) both when in residence or on journey. Then the prayers offered on journey remained the same, but (the Rakat of) the prayers for non-travellers were increased.
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Qatada:
My father said, "The Prophet in Zuhr prayers used to recite Al-Fatiha along with two other Suras in the first two Rakat: a long one in the first Rak’a and a shorter (Sura) in the second, and at times the verses were audible. In the 'Asr prayer the Prophet used to recite Al-Fatiha and two more Suras in the first two Rakat and used to prolong the first Rak’a. And he used to prolong the first Rak’a of the Fajr prayer and shorten the second.
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Qatada:
My father said, “The Prophet uses to recite Al-Fatiha followed by another Sura in the first two Rakat of the prayer and used to recite only Al-Fatiha in the last two Rakat of the Zuhr prayer. Sometimes a verse or so was audible and he used to prolong the first Rak’a more than the second and used to do the same in the 'Asr and Fajr prayers.”
***Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
“I saw Allah’s Apostle delaying the Maghrib prayer … Maghrib prayer and then offer three Rakat (of the Maghrib) and perform Taslim, … .” ***
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet offered one of the evening prayers (the sub-narrator Muhammad said, “I think that it was most probably the 'Asr prayer”) and he finished it after offering two Rakat only. … A man who was called DhulYadain by the Prophet said (to the Prophet), “Has the prayer been reduced or have you forgotten?” … So the Prophet offered two more Rakat and performed Tashm and then said Takbir and performed a prostration of Sahu like his ordinary prostration or a bit longer and then raised his head and said Takbir and then put his head down and performed a prostration like his ordinary prostration or a bit longer,and then raised his head and said Takbir.
**
Brother you are suffering from a disease. Who said that “Sahih Bukhari and because his words are mightier than Allah’s”? Imam Bukhari has collected sayings of the Prophet and that is the secondary source of Islamic Law. By your own admission, the amount of Zakat has not been prescribed in the Qur’an. Allah has revealed the amount to His Messenger to tell us how much it should be. Where is your problem in this?
**
Have you performed haj? If you have, and this is all you went by, I feel sorry for you.
**
Where is the conjecture? Or, are you not aware of the meaning of the word?
**
Where is the abrogation or fabrication?
**
Ateeullaha wa ateeurrusul is the order in the Qur’an. anyone who does not carry out part of it is guilty of ignoring instructions.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 06, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Spanky:
**
Well, they are the only ones who reject Sunnah of the Prophet(saw) with saying that Quraan is enough. Most shias reject the sunnah of Prophet too, well atleast the authentic one. They might believe the one in Al-kafi but then again, we know how authentic al-kafi is.
**
[/quote]
You are one ignorant fool.
A lost child amongst grown-ups.
[quote]
What about the dates of Hajj? Are they also mentioned in Quran or you just trust them cause your parents told you to do so.
[/quote]
oAsis, if you wish to be educated, ask politely and maybe I'll respond in detail.
Once again, everytime you question the completeness and authenticity of the Qur'an you challenge Allah's revelations... not me!
Allah's perfect religion has 12 months, four of them sacred (9:36). Qur'an was revealed in a month already known (2:185).
Hajj is to be observed in the known months (2:197). If in a hurry, it can be completed in 2 days (2:203).
[quote]
If we (Nauzu Billah) don't need Sunnah for being a proper Muslim and if Quran is enough in itself to provide 100% guidance to a Muslim, then why did Allah need a Prophet (saw) to reveal his message upon human beings in the first place?"
He would have placed the Holy Book on a tomb stone and would have asked people to consult it!!
[/quote]
If you were familiar with the process and time period of revelations, you'd know the answer. Allah in his infinite wisdom released Qur'an to people over a lengthy period so they can ask all the questions of their lives and verses could come to explain them. You can't achieve that with a Book in a tomb.
Also, previous scriptures had come through Prophets, so it made perfect sense to use a messenger again.
Do you think Allah's previous scriptures and the message therein is more important or the 'sunnah' of the prophets who brought it?
Becaue if you select the latter, Luke and Paul and the rest would have you believe Jesus was the son of God.
Now did Jesus lie?? Absolutely not. Surely the fabrications started in accounts that were compiled 100 years after his death.
The disciples were righteous people, and I don't have evidence of them being thick skulled or completely illiterate that they didn't care to write things down or make notes or memorize. Even today biblical scholars have more handwritten manuscripts than we could care to read.
Despite all that, we believe these books were corrupted. Then why such carelessness and blind acceptance on our part when it comes to Hadith accounts?
[quote]
If Sahaba Kiram (ra) had a chance to seek guidance from the personality of Hazrat Muhammad (saw) in their lives why would Allah deprive his Ummah of this priviledge?
[/quote]
This is actually the answer to your first question in itself. The Sahaba converted to Islam. The Prophet remained around them to facilitate Allah's grand plan of giving his revelation a stronger political platform to be able to propagate.
What would have happened if a messenger had arrived in a weak nation for a few months with a Book from a tomb, handed it over to some people and then disappeard?
Would the religion have propagated like it did? The Prophet was not just a religious figure but an astute statesman and a Political Leader and an accomplished General. Under his guidance Islam spread like wild fire.
However the Prophet never made up his own religion but warned and taught and judged between people using ONLY the Qur'an (6:19), (4:105).
People close to him observed his rules. Hundred years later however due to power struggles creeping into the Islamic state, the true spiritual teachings of obeying Allah Alone took a back seat and personalities took the wheel of Islam.
But Allah in his infinite wisdom promised to keep the Qur'an preserved for those who reflect and possess knowledge. The moment you read it thoroughly and with a clean and open mind, the lies and fabrications you've lived with all your life become clear and you get guidance.
[Yunus 10:15]** And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say: Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say: It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.**
Allah Akbar
May Allah give all of us the capability to read and understand and ponder and reflect on his revelations.
Allah Akbar
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
** You are one ignorant fool.
A lost child amongst grown-ups.**
[/quote]
Insults won't get you anywhere except Hell. I know you have been brought up with tabarrah as the basic duty. Fear Allah.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** oAsis, if you wish to be educated, ask politely and maybe I'll respond in detail.
Once again, everytime you question the completeness and authenticity of the Qur'an you challenge Allah's revelations... not me!**
[/quote]
Don't take that stance as it is incorrect. What is being questioned is your erroneous belief. The Qur'an we all know is complete with sunnah as the supporting rules of procedure.
What the brother has asked is the dates. You have replied months.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[This message has been edited by FactFinder (edited December 07, 2001).]