Hadeeth, fact or fiction?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

The Arabic word Hadith means ‘Narration’. In over 7 verses in the Quran, God refers to the Quran as a Hadith, ie the Quran is a narration, a Hadith from God. ‘Muslims’ around the world continue to believe in narrations of the prophet which were not even penned down until 250 years after the prophet’s death. Not only are they very very likely completely inaccurate, the Quran also warns about these so called Hadith.

7:185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith, beside this, does they believe in?

31:6 Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

39:23 God has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hears soften up for God’s message. Such is God’s guidance; He bestows it upon whomever he wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.

45:6 These are God’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?

68:44 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this Hadith; we will lead them on whence they never preceive.

77:48 When they are told, “Bow down,” they do not bow down.
77:49 Woe on that day to the rejectors.
77:50 Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?

Thoughts?

My apologies for any spelling errors.

I know some of you will come back and say that the Quran doesn’t teach us how to perform Salaat. True, but the Quran does say that Islam was the religion of Ibrahim, and that Salaat was given to Ibrahim. I will do more research and get you the exact quotes.

Secondly, think of the way the so called ‘Hadith’ teaches you how to pray, first you recite Fatiha (The Key) (note: The key is the only chapter in the Quran where man is talking to God, the rest are all God talking to man), after Fatiha where you talk to God, acknowledge his authority and beg him to show you the right path, you next recite any other chapter from the Quran, like surah Ikhlas. So you’re praying, and after talking to God, acknowledging his authority and begging him to show you the right path, you then say to Allah, "Proclaim “He is the One and only GOd” (verse 1 of Surah Ikhlas, chapter 112.

You’re telling God to acknowledge that He is the only God?

More thoughts?

[This message has been edited by aahmed (edited April 29, 2002).]

2

how do u perform salat if u dont believe in hadith. plz dont come up with answers that there isnt any need to and what if u do pray do u do in ur salat, ie rakat and other stuff. also tell me how did our prophet(PBUH) used to pray?

3

aahmed, nice try.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

In first verse you posted, you replaced word “message” with Hadith just to defame ahadeeths of the prophet.

In the second verse you posted, you replaced “idle tales,” with hadith just to defame something you can’t prove wrong other wise.

In the third verse you posted, you replaced “39:23 Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book,” with ‘hadith’ just to prove that you would USE conjectures and make up stuff in order to degrade the sayings of the prophet.

Need I go on?

In the fourth verse you posted, you replaced this: 45:6 Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?

No mention of “hadith,” did rashid khilafa and Ghulam Ahmad Perviez told you to add “hadith” instead of other words just so that his heretic cult has some leg to stand on? Shame shame, you preach quran and at the same time you would corrupt it in order to mislead people!

In the fifty verse you posted, you replaced this: “68:44 Then leave Me alone with such as reject this Message: by degrees shall We punish them from directions they perceive not.” with your own word ‘hadith,’ like a desperate “know-how,” who thinks by chaning some words in quran he can fool others like he has been fooled!

In eighth verse you posted, you placed this: “77:50 Then what Message, after that, will they believe in?” With your own word “hadith” in order to slander hadiths of prophet.

So many mistakes *(you remembered to apologize for your “spelling” mistakes but you really need to apologize to GOD for changings words for your own AGENDA!..

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

)*, just to do what no one should: Discredit sayings of Prophet and his sahaba, the people who UNDERSTOOD QURAN better than anyone else ever did and never will! Same people who were far better Muslims than you and I.

Thats it for now, see you later.

PS: Is PA with you? You two buddies?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: “DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH”, THEY SAY “WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS” VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur’an-2:11-12]

[This message has been edited by Serial Guppy (edited April 29, 2002).]

4

Don’t believe me people?

See it your self, what our “quran preacher” did!
http://islam.org/mosque/quran/

AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: “DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH”, THEY SAY “WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS” VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur’an-2:11-12]

5

Well Hadith as u said means message.. right
well if it means msg whts that u trying to say..
we know Message Allah is what we follow and Message of Rasool is what we follow Which is the same and it is Islam.

"Only for Allah and to gain His pleasure"
"You are either slave to what made man or u are slave to what man made"

6

Lets go over this verse by verse and let me make it very painful:

And He, free of all imperfections said, Say (O Muhammad): Obey Allah and the
Messenger (Muhammad). But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the
disbelievers. (Aali Imraan 3:32)

The verse says, OBEY ALLAH AND the Messenger. IT does not say OBEY allah OR the messenger! OBeying ALLAH meaning the QURAN, and obeying the messenger meaning, following HIS path to ALLAH and JANNAH!

AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: "DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH", THEY SAY "WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS" VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur'an-2:11-12]

7

Serial Guppy,
Some people love debates. Dont give them the pleasure. How about we wait, let him put forward his 'argument', and then proceed with ours.

aahmed,

You're telling God to acknowledge that He is the only God?<< This is the only point I could find from your post. We're reciting Allah's message in front of him, it seems like a sign of obedience to me, tell me one thing. Why do you even say Allah-o-Akbar, I mean, Allah know's he's Akbar, why should we be telling him that? Weak weak argument buddy.

Secondly, please be sure to completely explain the process and philosophy of Salat and where it is derived from. No loose/weak arguments, and no loose ends. Many others have found one excuse or another to evade that question. Thanks.

8

Serial,

aahmed used the word Hadith from the Qur'an.

Just taking one look at the different words you have put forth opens ones eyes.. Why so many different translations for one word.. Hadith??

Each time the translators wriggle out of a tight spot by introducing a different translations for the same word used in ALL these verses.

The arabic word used is Hadith. aahmed only posted that.

Though I do not agree with his line of argument. There is no need to prove the supremacy of Qur'an by proving it teaches you how to pray Salat. It should be upheld just because it's the ONLY divine document present.

The rest of the argument follows from it.

9

PakistaniAbroad- >>The rest of the argument follows from it. Yes thats a good way of saying 'I cant answer your questions. I'm stumped and confused over my beliefs'. Do you really expect people to just accept what you're saying? Put up a solid and complete argument. Anyhow no further on that in this thread, open up a new one if you wish to continue the other discussion and if you have anything solid to offer.

10

and does any of u know the meaning of the word HADITH????
or is it that anywhere u see this arabic word u link it to the ways of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)....
improve ur understanding of the Arabic language first and then try to understand the meaning of the Holy Quran and do not try to fool (or misguide) others by this stupid word-play....

now those of u who do not believe in following the SUNNAH of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), care to explain what Allah meant by the following verses of the Quraan....

inna lakum fee rasool-Allah usatun hasana
(and verily in the Prophet (pbuh) is a good example for u)

wa atee Allah wa atee ar-rasool
(and obery Allah and obey the Prophet)

qul in kuntum tuhiboon Allah fatabeooni uhbibkum Allah
(say that if u love Allah then follow me and Allah will love u)

and how do u follow the Prophet (pbuh) if u deny his SUNNAH....

toughts????

or is ur mind incapable of that????

"Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." **Quran(3:147)

11

The Qur'aan orders us to pray to Allah at over 70 different places.

How? and what Prayer?

Why would a Book tell us to do something, which is THE only purpose for our creation, and then not tell us how to do it:

051.056 I have only created Jinns and men, that they may worship Me.

Secondly, if there is no specific order/action of prayer, then the following ayat becomes null and void:

  1. O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

What prayer!

If the above ayat becomes null and void, then the following ayat becomes void:

054.022 But We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

The domino effect will then take place!

All I ask, is to be shown in the Qur'aan, how do we perform the basic and most important task of our Purpose. Salaat.

Surely, someone must have the answer, because millions of people have been doing this task for over 1400 years!!

12

Serial Guppy, I'll stipulate to all your arguments if you can explain this to me, all the verses I quoted use the word 'Hadith' in arabic in the Quran, however, the translations you provided, all had different translations for the same word, for the word Hadith. Can you explain that?

13

Aahmed, what does "hadith" mean in Arabic?

Different translators translated the word according to their understanding of ARABIC language. You translated it in way which fits your agenda properly.

Anyway, the topic here is Sunnah/ahadeeths of the prophet not Quran. According to scholars of Hadith, it stands for "what was transmitted on the authority of the Prophet, his deeds, sayings or tacit approval".

Quran says pray 5 times a day, sunnah tells us HOW TO PRAY and as Allah says in Quran that He has sent down His revelations to the Prophet that he "may **explain* to mankind what has been revealed for them."*

If we didn't have that 'explanation' today, we would be fighting over how to perform prayer, how to pay zakaat, how to perform hajj and not if "hadiths" of the prophet are needed not needed, good or bad...!

Hadiths tells us in great detail about prophets life and what he forbade and what he permitted! Quran says: "He (meaning the Prophet) will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit only foul things. He will relieve them of their burden and the fetters which had encumbered them."

Quran also says: "Whatever the messenger gives you, take it; and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it." (59; 7)

How do we then find out about such matters which PROPHET use to do but are not in Quran? Ahadeeth books.

Now, instead of relying on conjectures and stupid thought, lets bring OUT some facts and solid references - if you wish develop some kind of credibility/sense in your argument.

AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: "DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH", THEY SAY "WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS" VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur'an-2:11-12]

14

That's exactly the problem, different translators translate the word in different ways, with different meanings... If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I did NOT translate the word, I used the word itself, hadith. So do me a favor, read my post before replying.

You haven't answered my question, why is the same Arabic word translated into 5 different English words? You say I translated it to fit my agenda, first off I didn't even translate the word, I used the word itself, hadith, second of all, if I can translate the word to fit my agenda, can't the people who did your translations translate to fit their agendas?

Think first, type later.

15

lets see....
the word SABAB in arabic means....
- reason
- the way
- destination
- luggage

did u never hear about the arabic being a "mobeen" language....
so vast in its meanings....
or do u want to contrdict the Quran's verse and say that Arabic isnt that wide a language and NO WAY can a word have more than one meaning....
and HADITH can only mean the HADITH-Al-RASOOL....

P.S. just for ur info, the word hadith also has a meaning which means MODERN....
ask any linguistic expert in Arabic language and he might tell u....

"Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." **Quran(3:147)

16

Thank you ARmgul.

Aahmed, different people THINK differently. Unlike cult of Rashid khilafa and Ghulam Ahmed Perveiz.

Now, answer our replies and questions and stop ignoring them like your buddy PA use to.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

17

AoA, sometime ago one of PA's posts got me into thinking that maybe we shouldn't follow ahadith at all because of the reasons he mentioned, but then i realized Quran emphatically tells us to make Salat/offer prayers, but it doesn't tell us how to perform the Salat. So I'm basically looking for a very simple answer on 'how to make salat' by ONLY Quran and not ahadith.

Let's assume, I completely stop following the ahadith... so how do I make salat?

ps. I'm NOT interested in getting into any arguments! I want a straight answer as to how to make Salah.

Jazallah khair

"I put my trust in Allah, my Lord and your Lord! There is not a moving creature, but He has a grasp of its forelock. Verily, my Lord is on the straight path. (The truth)"
(11:55-56)

"...Indeed my prayer, my sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allaah, the Lord of the worlds" (6:162)

18

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

Obey Allah and the
Messenger (Muhammad). But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the
disbelievers. (Aali Imraan 3:32)

Its clear in The Quran that we must obey Allah and His Messenger, and by looking at the verses you have quoted, it seems that it is you who needs to look at the verses and think, that why are you denying the “Hadith” of Allah?

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

002.285
YUSUFALI: The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.”

002.286
YUSUFALI: On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

“Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith.”

This is also a verse from The Quran in which we pray to Allah… there are many other verses, I will be more than just glad to post them here.

19

[quote]
Originally posted by Sadiaa:
**AoA, sometime ago one of PA's posts got me into thinking that maybe we shouldn't follow ahadith at all because of the reasons he mentioned, but then i realized Quran emphatically tells us to make Salat/offer prayers, but it doesn't tell us how to perform the Salat. So I'm basically looking for a very simple answer on 'how to make salat' by ONLY Quran and not ahadith.

Let's assume, I completely stop following the ahadith... so how do I make salat?

ps. I'm NOT interested in getting into any arguments! I want a straight answer as to how to make Salah.

Jazallah khair

**
[/quote]

Different, the points you raised were brought up before.

But for now, let them (PA, aahmed and other followers of what Rashid Khilafa and Ghulam A Perveiz preached... though they(pa, aahmed) deny any association with them(Rashid khilafa, etc.). answer the question which Sadiaa brought up and lets see if they can respect a woman and give her the ANSWER to question which was asked MANY MANY times but it was never answered nor do they have any solid, authentic, proven by ALLAH and his Messenger, WAY of answering it- nonetheless, we want an answer to the question. A STRAIGHT ANSWER no twisting and turning it into some kind of "hadith" bashing.

AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: "DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH", THEY SAY "WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS" VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur'an-2:11-12]

[This message has been edited by Serial Guppy (edited April 30, 2002).]

20

Saadia, here are some verses to address salaat. If you believe that the Muhammed's sayings are the only place to get information on Salaat, you are dead wrong.

21:72 (Verse regarding Ibrahim) And we granted him Isaac and Jacob as a gift, and we made them both righteous.
21:73 We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteeousness, and how to observe salaat, and the obligatory charity (zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.

When the Quran was revealed, all reigious duties were already established through Ibrahim .

16:120 Ibrahim was indeed an exemplary vanguard in his submission to God, a monotheist who never worshipped idols.
16:121 Because he was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path.
16:122 We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous.
16:123 (important)Then we inspired you (Muhammed) to follow the religion of Ibrahim, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.

This last vers informs us that all religious practices, which came to us through Ibrahim, were intact at the time of Muhammed.

People argue that we should pray as Muhammed did, yes that is true, but how do we know that what Muhammed prayed was the same as what Ibrahim prayed? Does it say in the Quran that Muhammed was given Salaat? No, It says clearly that Salaat was given to Ibrahim.

Secondly when you pray, you recite Durood, which doesn't make sense, Durood is basically sending blessings and salutations to Muhammed. Did Muhammed send blessings and salutations to himself? Not likely... so if the prophet didn't and you do, have you not changed salaat from what the propet did to what you do?

[This message has been edited by aahmed (edited May 01, 2002).]