Had India not partitioned........

[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Pakistan's creation was the best thing ever happend...soo true...Imagine another 150 million fanatic muslims who fight for Taliban, in Chechenya, in Kashmir...a big nightmare...

When I think of partition, I heave a sigh of relief as I do at 6:30 am every morning after I expunge some unwanted stuff, down the drain.

What a relief!**
[/quote]

.. doesnt seem like . ur having constipation for long.. why u come to this forum shows ur not at rest..why u care so much bout Pakistan and wuz happening here..r there any shortage of Indian forums at net.. or ur inherenthate just compels u to come here..

We feel the same way about BahRAT mata. Paks core dump left over since 47 but cannot do any thing about the stink. Its made Pak, China, Nepal, BD, SL go nuts. BahRAT mata claims its developing chemical weapons but we know

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

Dang so much concentration of methane in one hole…

Degas,

You didn't understand. Bhai kumarakn has a loose stomach. So, he needs to relive himself every few hours. Gupshup is one of the places he chooses to be at peace!

Funny, I always thought it was the other way round. Gandhi was always the one rousing the emotions of the crowds, Jinnah's failures during the middle of career were often attributed to him being so "logical" and unable to get the masses to heed his words.

About Jinnah and Pakistan, I fail to see why Jinnah would go through the pains of building a country from scatch only for personal glory. I'm pretty sure that close to death, people normally tend to worry about their lives rather than what the world think of them or will think of them. If Jinnah was driven by personal/political motivations, he would've been more worried about his fast deteriorating health rather than fighting for Pakistan.

And frankly, I do agree with you that Pakistan perhaps should not have been born. The Muslims should've lived in a large India. BUT I'm not saying that the Two Nation theory was wrong at all. The reason why I say this, because it was the Muslims who ruled India for the majority of history, did lots of great deeds and left lots of marks in India's history. Now, we have tp look at India's history and the Muslim achievements from a distance. They are our achievements and yet they are not. Bharat has benefited from these achievements greatly, an example being the Taj Mahal. The whole world knows about the Taj Mahal but how many people know who built it? What's even worst is that the Indian Gov't is trying to escalate Hinduization propaganda and trying to remove the Muslims shades from Indian history.

When we were in Saudi Arabia, my Dad used to have a good friend who was an Indian-American Muslim. He told us a very interesting story about when he and his family went back to India for a visit. His kids obviously didn't speak Urdu/Hindi very well and could easily be recognized as foreigners. Anyways, the family eventually went to the Taj Mahal for sightseeing. There a guide hooked up with them and started to take them around the place and everything. He started going over the history of the Taj Mahal and spoke in English. He probably assumed that these ppl didn't know much about anything since they seemed from foreign. The most interesting part was when he talked about who built the Taj Mahal. He credited some Hindu Raja for having built the Taj Mahal. Can you believe the nerve of this guy? At this point my Dad's friend interrupted him and said to him in Urdu that he always thought it was Shah Jahan who built the Mahal. The guide was shocked and he knew that he was found out. He begged my Dad's friend not to report the matter to the authorities and everntually conceded that he was paid by the Gov't to throw such lies at people who seemed foreign and thus, would not know much about Indian history.

And please, before all my Indian friends start doubting my mental health and the authenticiaty of this narration, I'd like to tell you that I'm totally fine and that this incident is true. Because that person had no reason to lie about this and I'm not lying about the Taj Mahal incident. Otherwise I would've had to stretch my imagination a lot to come up with such a story. And believe you me, if there's one thing I'm not, that's creative.

For all the Indian Muslims out there and Pakistanis, something to think about!

[This message has been edited by sambrialian (edited November 27, 2001).]

And frankly, I do agree with you that Pakistan perhaps should not have been born.
.....<<
I don't know. Personally I think we are better off without Pakistan. I mean nothing against Pakistanis but if Pakistan Controlled Punjab,Sindh,Kashmir,NWFP etc., were still with India, India would have faced a lot of unnecessary problems.

it was the Muslims who ruled India for the majority of history<<
You are wrong there. Except Mauryans, Moghuls and to a less extent Guptas and Satavahanahs and later English no one people can claim to rule India as a whole.
Considering how ancient Indian Civilization is Moghul rule was a drop in the bucket.

[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
**You are wrong there. Except Mauryans, Moghuls and to a less extent Guptas and Satavahanahs and later English no one people can claim to rule India as a whole.
Considering how ancient Indian Civilization is Moghul rule was a drop in the bucket.

**
[/quote]

Is there something you forgot? The Lodhis? The Sayeeds and so on. What about them?


“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

[quote]
Originally posted by Ali_R:
** Is there something you forgot? The Lodhis? The Sayeeds and so on. What about them?

**
[/quote]

I can add few to Lodhis, Nadirs, sayeeds but hey whats the point. Its all new to hindians its not part of their history.

I can add few to Lodhis, Nadirs, sayeeds but hey whats the point. Its all new to hindians its not part of their history.<<
Well Lodhis were confined to North India mostly as I understand it.
By the way Lodhis are very much part of our History.
If you go to NEW Delhi you will find Lodhi Park. And it is beautiful too.
Wiping out history or pretending to be central asians is not part of Indian curriculum

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

Ha Ha ,That is the best joke i ever heard.India is having a infeririority complex with pakistan.hey jalpari,Don’t think it is our weakness that indians r urging for freindship with pakistan.It is for the holy aim of peaceful co-existance and devlop to walk with the fast moving head,we r moved our hand of freindship for u.Don’t ever even think it again.otherwise u better deserve to get a harsh kick on ur backside for this.i will be back…

well friends,
Thank u for ur kindly reply.But i must say it is one of the most stupid discussion i ever had on such a controversial subject.abdali,jalpari and "really mad" mad_scientist have spoken so much explosive that it can be concluded that pakistsni are no relations with sensibility and problem solving capablity.It is just a waste of time to write on this site.I regularly visit this site because i wished to know ur thoughts.I earlier think that pakistani on net are all elite people of their society who can think sensibly and really think for pakistan as a future devloped nation but it's shame they only think abour religion and conflict.Jehad,jehad and jehad.hell with u.
but that's not all.I am nervous but i'll never stop writing on this site.oneday i'll persue u the importance of co-existance and how it will help both india and pakistan to become a developed nation in future.i know u will stop speaking about religion and start talking about progress in future.That is my mission in net.That is my mission on pak.org

and freinds,
Remember,healthy nation will on exist if it's neighbour is healthy.I'll come back with another issue.Thanx once again.

and ........never consider that for we are coming to ur for frendship,it's our weakness that cause it.

[quote]
Originally posted by arrehman:
The man who Divided India has barely been around for a fortnight ...Today indian muslim are just givvers of the votes ,living in fear because what is happening in pakistan.jinnah's two nation theory has raised barriers of hostility which have not yet been removed.
[/quote]

Well first of all buddy, in Pakistan we always maintain a healthy skepticism of our leaders and dont label them as mahamtama and indulge in stupid mentality and hyppocrisy. It does not mean for a second that anyone here as a single friggin doubt that Jinnah--one of the greatest man that lived in the 20th century-- is not recognized as father of the great nation of Pakistan. His cause was for the muslims in south asia and for the preservance of their heritage and a surity that they would have a shelter on their head. He gave his life for the purpose. there isnt a SHRED of property or wealth accumulated by him. He died in an ambulance on his way to the hospital cuz the engine gave up. He did not remarry after his wife's death and he did not take an iota of Pakistan's national wealth with him. His vision was one of salva tion for the Muslims and he acheived it. Now god dammit I have known many indian muslims full of envy and their sorry ass that they wished they were born in Pakistan. Then on the other hand they sayy that all is well in India with them. If all is well, then there IS NO NEED TO DISCUSS THAT ALL MUSLIMS IN SOUTH ASIA TOGETHER WOULD VE BEEN BENEFICIAL and stuff.

Pakistan at its birth was a very backward area. It was an area of muslims density and British ignored it. There was nothing in Pakistan. Even the plane in which Quad E Azam came wasn't fastend properly. Pakistan has been stabbed too many times by cowardly SOBS and we survived and we will expand and prosper and strive for the destiny that is Pakistan's fate.
Muslims in India are indians now. if they are being suppressed and sidelined, they should take to the streets, lobby, and let the world know what's being done to them. But Pakistan is not responsible for them. Those who remained did so after their own choice.

The Islamic Republic's creation is one of the most beautiful chapter's in the political and Islamic World's history. the people of Pakistan are alhamdolillah full of spirit, energy and zeal. Iran named a whole city after Jinnah. There were shouts of Allaho Akbar and slaughtering of cows and goats in turkey, indonesia... King Faisal called pakistan the fort of Islam (recently the wrods again echoed by the saudi foreign minister, not that I give hoot to those schmucks), Sultan of Oman said if you want to buy a crow buy it from Pakistan (both faisal and the sultan were assasinated).

Yes Jinnah was the instrumental figure in acheiving Muslims a homeland for their salvation! But HELL! if any one thinks that if jinnah hadnt been there, Muslims wouldnt have acheived this security. Jinnah was backed by the best of the best muslim scholars, nationalists, poets, philosophers and lawyers. he enjoyed popularity wherever he went. And this was a guy who was hailed as the ambassador of united India. He was offered WHAT NOT by the british and their slave hindians....but he didnt except anything. Any one who doubts his sincerety is a bigtime f*** up. British were to abandon the subcontinent sooner or later (thank you Hitler), but the creation of Pakistan was JUSTICE done to the people of this land.
India is shi8, its extreme, dense and full of AIDS. Muslims ruled "South asian sub continent' NOT "india". The territory of Pakistan and her people have nothing to do with any continental "Indian" empire. We did not divide anyone country: we carved out a boudary from a vast continent. HECK! if anyone says that middle east is a country or europe is a country.
George Washington (my respects to the general) was single handedly responsible for the creation of the United States of America (now just cuz US has become a shi8hole, doesnt mean its creation was wrong). But goddammit if anyone says that he was single handedly responsible behind the "idea" of US. Hell no, he has nothing to do with the constitution, the bill of rights and the political philosophical evolution of the US: that ws done by hamilton, jefforson, madison, john jay, andrew jackson and so forth) Now how many of us know these names? By comparison washington was shi8.

For sure, Lincoln fought to preserve the Unoin of the United States. But British India was never a Union of willing subjects. Neither its people any one nation, especially the composition of the northwest (Pakistan: the land of best heritage in the world!!) Kashmir is not part of the Indian union, since they never joined it, and India's troops there is illegal and condemnable. East Punjab is part of the indian union since they did choose to join them, and if they try to seperate on account of their greiviences from hindia, then both are justified: Sikhs for seperatism and hindia for sending tin the troops to preserve the union.
Britsh Hindia WAS NEVER A UNION OF WILLING SUBJECTS!
My salute to flag of Sitara O Hillal, the flag of cresent and star . The country which is the epicentre of the Earth. The land of seven rivers. The cross roads of middleast/south/central Asia. to hell withthe rest of smelly hyppocrites and schmucks who piss then run, lie then cover their tracks, opress and then kiss ass. HMPH!
NO ONE GIVES ME ANY CRAP OF DIVIDING A PEOPLE OR COUNTRY FROM NOW ON!
ZINDABAD PAKISTAN!

[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited December 01, 2001).]

From the above rantings, there seems to be no such thing as forgive and forget on the otherside, let me reply in kind.

Getting cut in Half in 1971 is not good enough apparently.
Remember however the next time it will be 4 parts.
Sind, Balochistan, Pakthoonistan and since Punjabi Muslims started the whole thing, they can have whatever is left

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

:hoola::hoola:

And for you, why dont you save you ass? Lemme ask you, since you love to hang around here in pak forums....whats up with you? Is pakistan like an addiction for you guys or what? Or are you still paranoid from another invasion from northwest?
I dont giva a single hoot about India or what goes inside it. Infact if Pakistan is supporting any of the numerous insurgencies in india, we shouldnt. We dont need to. Hell I say even sikhs should remain in India. But one notion of malice form you on the land of the pure, my sword is gonna chop your sorry ass, 'k?
And which Punjabi muslims? the siraikis? or the poth waris? or the jatts or rajputs? or the gujars or arraain? or the khokars? Hell they are in competition with each other, much less try to dominate the rest of Pakistan lol. Not a SINGLE BULLET HAS BEEN FIRED FORM PAKHTUNKHWA TO DATE, NEITHER IN SINDH. So keep puffin ganja, and stand aside, lest you want another planting of a delhi sultanate.

[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited December 01, 2001).]

Sultan yaar take it easy. I totally agree with you on pretty much everything you said. I think it is very important for us to realize that we as Pakistanis have a land to call our own and it is our responsibility now to fulfill the Quaid and Allama Sahib's dream.

Andhra I don't get you Indians esp the ones on this forum. This is I believe one of three discussions going on concurrently to determine if the birth of Pakistan was right or wrong....

The funny thing is that every time a discussion is started (by Indians), some Indian guy jumps in (recent examples being ZZ) who states that India is much better off without the filthy presence of Pakistanis. So, I am confused here friend. Make up your mind, you either want Pakistan to be with India or not but don't flip flop.

As far as 1971 is concerned, I advise that you look first in your own backyard before jumping on our case. I have a very close Indian friend who is a Bengali Hindu. After years of arguments, we have an unspoken agreement now that no politics if we want this friendship to remain intact. However, one thing I have gathered from his views is that Indians have a lot of hatred for each other based on their city, state or povince or whatever. My friend absolutely hated ppl from Delhi which became obvious when a guy from Delhi joined our school in our final year. And the Delhi guy had a lot of contempt for my friend as well. The point is that we Pakistanis don't need a certain Mike Dennes banning our players to make us stand united behind our flag. Care to explain that friend?

By the way, you were right about the duration of Muslim rule being a drop in the bucket in terms of time. But in terms of historical significance, Mulim rule was quite important especially because we don't see Guptas and Satavahanahs slug it out these days. However, the animosity between Muslims and Hindus seems to transcend all measures of time. So, that was the context that I wanted to mention Mulsim rule, not length but significance with respect to current events.

By the way, you were right about the duration of Muslim rule being a drop in the bucket in terms of time. But in terms of historical significance, Mulim rule was quite important especially because we don’t see Guptas and Satavahanahs slug it out these days. <<
Not really. You can call it Pakistan-India thing if you want. We don’t have any issues with Bangladesh,Iran,Iraq,Indonesia etc.,You seem to make the facile assumption that Pakistan is representative of Islam or Muslims.

However, the animosity between Muslims and Hindus seems to transcend all measures of time.<<
Again refer to above. Hindus and Muslims lived together in India for a while now and will continue to do so, if outsiders don’t meddle.
SultanToora or whoever shut the fu.. up and observe debating decencies.
As for being cheap, currency wise nothing is cheaper than an Afghani and you know that.
Living standards wise for all the number of poor people Indians don’t end up in the neighbour’s border setting up refugee camps.
Morals wise we don’t peddle dope.

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

Law And Order wise.. well you know the answer for that one!!

The reason Pakistan probably doesn't represent Islam today is because our goverments are and have been a farce. At Pakistan's birth, Pakistan was hailed as the Islamic leader as stated by Sultan. And as far as other countries are concerned, leaving out the governments, the ppl of most of these countires do feel for the Pakistanis just for being Muslims.

My family lived in Saudi Arabia for round about 20 years and I remember the majority of our friends were Indian Muslims. And I didn't get the sense that all was well as far as the Hindu-Muslim thing was concerned. I'll elaborate and give more examples if you'd like me to but I'd prefer it if you'd believe me. The Taj Mahal incident that I quoted certainly doesn't suggest that all is well in India amongst Muslim and Hindus. I assure you that bro Kabir and his sentiments are not an isolated case. I've seen many, many examples of this resentment among our social circle.

While we are talking about debating manners, I'd like to know why you choose to respond to specific portions of my posts. So, far I believe I've tried to state a whole bunch of points but you seem to drag down the whole debate to just the Muslim rule thingy which I've dealt with already. Please, respond to the posts, not to side issues that need one probably needs significant immagination to come up with.

[This message has been edited by sambrialian (edited December 01, 2001).]

LOL, I'll speak my mind and I permit you to speak yours too.
As for your debating "tendencies", I'm not impressed at all. Your general Knowledge is pathetic, your penman ship lacks vigor and forcefulness. All in all its apparent you pretty much come here with a sinking nervous heart to see how much thrashing people have done to your lame messages and thats apparent in your writing as well.

Sultan, I hope your post isn't directed towards me because my last post wasn't for you!

I was trying to talk Andhra.

The post is not directed towards you at all...