Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
I am here to post my first comment in this thread.
Let me know is there any reference in bible or in any other holy book that We should celebrate the birthday of a prophet .?
IF any one of you can give me the refernce of the celebration of birthday then we should go further to discuss the issue of
merry christmess ...Fisrt we should confirm the issue of celebrating birthday of a prophet.
Otherwise it is meaning liss discussion.:)
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
and thread turns to minority victimization issue .....
No, the thread is about making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas…
you should check my earlier response…i.e. likes i had given on issue regarding wishing someone merry christmas
i am against your idea moving to a muslim country what happened your secular ideas:hehe:
as far as one link is concerned i can give you more…i posted only one doesn’t mean that there is only one link regarding this issue…
P.S. i didn’t find it hard to wish someone merry christmas…
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
^ is that a sign of tolerance for you?
A few years back I was studying in some Western University. A Sikh student invited me to his house, and offered me food to eat. It was vegetarian, but I was literally pushed against the wall. Thought for a while, that the food is not haram, if I refuse first of all what image of muslims I'd be leaving there and then Allah knows about our niyyah. I had a couple of bites, and I think that was the right thing to do.
For muslims who lives in western country, if a colleague says Merry Christmas to him, should he stay silent? Although he himself does not believe in Christ AS being God? I don't think saying Merry Christmas infringes on your faith, but the way we deal with others around us we would be held responsible for that.
Ali, I read with intent the text you quoted in the previous post to this one ..
I think there is a huge difference in Tolerance towards other religions and confirming to their belief.
Tolerance is when living in a Christian country, we still look after our neighbours, we dont befriend them to the extreme, but we look after their homes, we greet them good morning or other non faith related greetings, we accomodate them in places like giving up our place on the bus when someone vulnerable is standing rather then sitting down etc .. Tolerance is when we do not shun a Christian colleague or member of the public just because they are christians .. Thats what tolerance is.
Confirming to their faith, is when someone is doing something negative and we wish them or congratulate them on it! for example, clearly Allah has told us that Islam is the only religion chosen for mankind. All other faith, religion, dieties become secondary. If someone is then saying that Jesus is the son of God, he was born on this day to God and Mary ... then they are conducting Shirk as per Islamic Law.
We may not be prepared enough for Dawaah all the time, we may not be in a position to tell them their belief is wrong, in which case the minimum we should do is , refrain from congratulating them on their belief.
By doing this, in no way, we are getting insecure about our religion or giving them a wrong picture of us! By doing this , we are only confirming to our belief that:
- as humans we respect other humans, to maintain good ties with them to maintain law and descipline.
- However, for us muslims, they are on the wrong and we shall not take part in endorsing anything that is wrong.
As christmas is approaching , our neighbours and colleagues or others known to us corner us with immense happiness and wishes like Merry Christmas. How does a muslim respond? not with silence , but with the example of the Sunnah of being nice and just to them and we say back to them " seasons greetings to you " or have fun with the holidays etc .. because for us these are mere holidays .. nothing more.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
Confirming to their faith, is when someone is doing something negative and we wish them or congratulate them on it! for example, clearly Allah has told us that Islam is the only religion chosen for mankind. All other faith, religion, dieties become secondary. If someone is then saying that Jesus is the son of God, he was born on this day to God and Mary ... then they are conducting Shirk as per Islamic Law.
As christmas is approaching , our neighbours and colleagues or others known to us corner us with immense happiness and wishes like Merry Christmas. How does a muslim respond? not with silence , but with the example of the Sunnah of being nice and just to them and we say back to them " seasons greetings to you " or have fun with the holidays etc .. because for us these are mere holidays .. nothing more.
The thing is that firstly if you dissect the phrase "Merry Christmas", no where does it mean that you are condoning their belief that Jesus was son of God. Considering that you are not celebrating it, and if out of curiosity one asks you you can tell them that you will not be not celebrating. I have quoted above that the Prophet (SAW) once allowed the Christians of Najran to pray in his mosque, they have their beliefs and we have ours. But I feel this very hard to swallow that by wishing the Christians one could lose his faith. Allah knows whats in our hearts and mind.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
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Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
The thing is that firstly if you dissect the phrase "Merry Christmas", no where does it mean that you are condoning their belief that Jesus was son of God. Considering that you are not celebrating it, and if out of curiosity one asks you you can tell them that you will not be not celebrating. I have quoted above that the Prophet (SAW) once allowed the Christians of Najran to pray in his mosque, they have their beliefs and we have ours. But I feel this very hard to swallow that by wishing the Christians one could lose his faith. Allah knows whats in our hearts and mind.
Again, Merry Christmas as a term is Christian's term. not ours .. did you hear prophet SAW use jews or other faiths salutations to greet them? no he didnt.
Secondly, letting them use the space as a courtesy does not in any way make comparisons to taking part in their faith. For example, a neighbour comes to our house for a chat, will be not invite them in? we will and we will offer them tea and coffee as well. So its basic courtesy. A christian comes , makes his prayer and leaves .. its not the same as confirming their faith.
Thirdly and the most important bit, yourself and many others keep using these words " wishing christians one could lose his faith" ... those are strong words in my opinion. the point is not about losing my faith, but the fact that I am upholding the Islamic Law that too when it comes to the other party confirming shirk , I do not wish to take part in that activity what so ever. simple as that. If we look at this argument from "losing faith" perspective we will never be able to understand the implication of why we are against wishing Christmas. but if you look at it from the perspective of " upholding Islamic Law by not condoning the wrong faith" , it will all fall in place.
Here's a simple example:
A man murders his daughter in honour killing and says he was fully justified in doing it. no matter what the daughter has done that led to this, would you ever tell the man "well done" " you have done the right thing" ? no you wont. If you cant tell him on his face , you will refrain from making any comment, right? this is because you do not condone his action.
Similarly a less serious sin like drinking. Someone drinks and thinks its fine not doing any harm to anyone. you would either say to the person he's wrong in thinking that he is justified in drinking or you would just refrain from making any comment knowing in your heart that he's doing a wrong deed may Allah give Hidayah to him. right? .. but here's the catch: if he says oh its a beautiful taste .. and you say yeah its looks tasty... there ! you have just condoned his action , in a miniature way!
you can argue that you didnt drink and didnt comit a sin, but you still did the following: instead of stopping them from comitting a negative act, or letting them know that they are wrong, you are now sort of encouraging him in his habit.
I hope this makes sense. Ali , we are but very ordinary human beings, in alot of places we cant judge people , but its a responsibility upon us to uphold Islamic laws as much as we can.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas…
Surah Aal e Imran Ayat 29:
[RIGHT]
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Sahih International
Say, "Whether you conceal what is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knows it. And He knows that which is in the heavens and that which is on the earth. And Allah is over all things competent.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
and thread turns to minority victimization issue .....
When did it turn into minority VICTIMIZATION. Just by the mention of the word minority?
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
@CB. I agree replying Happy Holidays is sufficient. But replying Merry Christmas is better. But I understand where you are coming from.
Respectfully disagree with the murdering daughter example. You don't just remain silent ( as when someone drinks). You report the person to the authorities.
Also you spkoke abt " not befriending someone of other faith to the extreme". To me tolerance means NOT considering religion when choosing friends.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
southie, sorry dont misread me, I assume the reporting on a serious crime is an absolute must, there is no two thoughts on that. by remaining quiet I meant when we give our opinion about an act.
with regards to the tolerance. For people who consider Islam not a mere religion but a way of life, it will come first in every thing they do. We consider Islam in every aspect of our life to be important. for example, I go out for dinner, my priority is to eat only halal food. Many of us are not perfect muslims we falter in many ways .. but we are all striving in what ever way to remain close to religion and live our lives in accordance to those teachings .. so its not possible to separate a religion that is a way of life , from, living a life ..
That same religion teaches us the rules of tolerance .. it tells us to be humble and just to people of other faith. By befriending someone, we dont mean you cant talk to anyone non muslim. We talk, we interact, we remain friendly and create an example of a good society. But going into deeper friendships where there is conflict of interest, is then discouraged.
For example, I had an English friend for many years. she is Christian and lives life a certain way. I always respected the line between us. but then I never attended her parties coz they contained alcohol activity, singing and dancing etc , something I cant do. We remained friends for things like Shopping, coffee time, etc etc .. but after a while she started pressurizing me to go to the pub with her or come to her parties ... that caused strain on our friendship coz of the conflict of interest. The way we dressed was different. Our likes and dislikes changed significantly as well as we grew and eventually now we are no long good friends. We are just acquaintances ... thats how life is ! and thats what Islam prepared us for that if its possible to remain friends with non muslims with no pressure involved on your own Islamic guidelines, then by all means maintain the relationship. but if there is conflict of interest then give up that friendship.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
@CB. I agree replying Happy Holidays is sufficient. But replying Merry Christmas is better. But I understand where you are coming from.
Respectfully disagree with the murdering daughter example. You don't just remain silent ( as when someone drinks). You report the person to the authorities.
Also you spkoke abt " not befriending someone of other faith to the extreme". To me tolerance means NOT considering religion when choosing friends.
your own definition of tolerance is an example of intolerance to those people who want to choose thier friend the way they want.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
what a contradiction, you came up with a fatwa and then said you would not agree to another fatwa given by by same school of thought. dewana! I would respect you comments but your post containing fatwa was for defeating me in discussion not for convincing me. I would have posted a lot of questions but would agree with your last sentence, so let us not make it complicated :)
I said
"One can go too far by using tangential logic." after posting that fatwa. :)
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas…
By saying Merry Christmas the person is
1- Sending good wishes on the birth of Issa AS. Does not necessarilty himself/herself celebrating the event.
2- Not saying he AS was son of God. 
3- Not even confirming or agreeing with any other tenets of current day Christian Beliefs.
4- There are issues where one really has to be strict and some issues which are very trivial. This one is just very insignificant.
5- Muslims do need to convey a clear message to Christians that they have common prophet.
Muslims do celebrate Birth of Prophet Muhammad. That is a discussion by itself and the method of celebrating may be controversial… but still celebrating birth does not make someone non-Muslim/Kaafir or Mushrik.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
^ it not about method of celebrating birth, its about their belief regarding the birth.
if a christians say Merry Christmas to other christian, you know what that means
if a christians say Merry Christmas to a Muslim what does that mean?
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas…
Celebrating birthdays does not convey the message that we have a common prophet.
Celebrating a birthday is totally non significant in Islam.
Celebrating a day which no one is sure was actually the birth day of a prophet is innovation and can be classed as biddah
Celebrating the birthday of a prophet who Christians believe is son of God and Mary , is shirk and you are condoning that shirk.
Its not a trivial matter anymore. If a muslim says I am celebrating prophet’s birthday .. fine that can be classed as trivial coz there is no element of shirk only the biddah element.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
I think celebrating birth of Jesus (as) with christians is not a bad idea
Jesus was/is a Holy man of Refined character and his remembrance in this manner is nothing wrong. Good people and their radiant personalities must be remembered in some ways. Some people say its not his correct birthday, I dont think it makes any difference.
Jesus as a faithful person is a role model for Muslims and Christian alike
Christians can come celebrate with us the birth of Prophet Mohammed (saw)
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas…
People such as yourself have trouble understanding said ideas because of limited hardware.:halo:
My point was that if, in your opinion, wishing someone Merry Christmas is such a big deal, then move to a Jewish/Muslim majority country where you won’t have this issue. Most people, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim etc, have no issues with saying Merry Christmas. In fact, in my experience, most people say Happy Holidays anyways.
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas…
this is the so called tolerance of secularists?
Re: Greeting others with Merry Christmas...
your own definition of tolerance is an example of intolerance to those people who want to choose thier friend the way they want.
OK. I tolerate your position.