Greater Pashtunistan

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
141

You should support the govt whether they are stooges or not, because otherwise, what is your alternative? More Taliban?
A people who destroy their own heritage and culture, who deny any modernity, and they are the hope of Afghanistan!

142

i don't have to support the government because I know the Talibs WILL be back in power whether its 2 years from now or 5.

Funny, all these arguments about the Taliban were never mention prior to 9-11. At that time the Taliban provided strategic depth and housed our training camps for the jihad in Kashmir. Pretty convenient with the advantage of hindsight.

143

I never supported them then...
And yeah, world politics is hypocritical, what can you do... They also supported Saddam before he became their worst enemy, and a threat to human civilization as we know it.

I still believe the Americans will be able to defeat the Taliban. With the Pakistan Army doing what it can here in Pak, and the rest of the world in Afghanistan, its only a matter of time.
Im sorry if I dont share your confidence in the fighting prowess of the Talibs.

America should rebuild the country, create a strong Afghan army no matter how long that takes and then leave.

Regardless, its to late to go back now... America cant leave Afghanistan in the mess its in, and Pakistan cant simply allow terrorists gain power in FATA.
Personally, these Taliban have murdered to many innocent people to be allowed to live or be forgiven.

144

Lets just say that the Talibs come back into power after America leaves (which it WILL), do we continue to fight this war perpetually? Will we ever have an Afghan government friendly to us and our regional interests? It does not look good.

The "Afghan" Army is nothing but a collection of former militias financed by the US $s. US goes away and that "Army" reverts back to its old alliances. Love it or hate it, the Taliban are probably the most effectively calibrated fighting force in Afghanistan - i don't see that changing barring the formation of an alternative Pakhtun fighting force. Even then, the challenge will be going against a militia that has a black and white flag with the shahadah imprinted on it.

My point here to effectively secure Pakistan's standing sovereignty. We must have a friendly govt in Afghanistan, we must ensure that Afghanistan does not fall apart. The most effective move would bide our time until the Americans are out of there - that alone will help pacify the tensions.

145

That would be great, but isnt it the bane of all Afghans, Pakistanis interfering in their country for the benefit of only their own. Most PAshtuns are dead against Pakistan interfernece in Afghanistan, your the first I have ever met that supported the Pak Army's "strategic depth" initiative.

And even if the Taliban do come back, it will only revert back to the civil war it was before...
You know aswell as anyone that the US govt is NOT going away anytime soon.
The Afghan army may be only a militia, but I doubt the US is going to leave until they are certain it can stand up on its own, (although I admit that with the current economic crisis, nothing is 100 percent.) And lets not forget that militias have been succesful in the past against the Taliban. The only difference is that the Talibs get more support and financing from wherver they get it.

If the US and other allies build the capacity within that country to support their own govt and army, then why not. If the same militias could hold back the Taliban for years, there is no reason to doubt that they wouldnt be succesful if they were even stronger.
And the Taliban coming back is still a big if. With the combined efforts of the Pak Army and the US and Nato, its questionable how succesful they will be.

Remember this time the Taliban have little or no support, as opposed to last time.

At best, the Afghan and US govts will allow some Taliban back in exchange for ceasefire... But that doesnt seem likley as the Talibs apparently want to continue the fight.

So its really a zero sum game at this point.. Them or us.

tariqa-e-bandgi
146

First thing i would like to tell you about Wazir and Wazirastan the Operation over there......

I think i am very WELL AWARE OF THAT.....
AS i belong To North Wazirastan Agency .....
I know the battle and the motives and the opponents more than you .... as i am already from this region and in this area............

IT IS ONLY BECAUSE OF SOME ...... STUPID POLITICIANS ..... and GENERALS who GIVE CONSIDER US missions more PRIOR than our NATIONAL INTERESTS.....

Our duties as MUSLIM..... PAKISTANI..... WAZIRASTANEE..... and PUKHTOON is to FIX these PLOTICIANS....... Not to FIGHT with the ....... guards of HOLY LAND ..... THE PAKISTAN......

....

The independent state DREAM .... YOU KEEP IN YOUR DREAMS...... IT IS SO PLEASING..... FOR YOU ONLY.....

BE HAPPY AND KEEP SMILING BUT IN YOUR DREAMS........
As Wazirastani....... and TRIBLE ..... IT IS MY DUTY TO SACRIFY MY EVERY THING FOR PAKISTAN.......

I HAVE TO POINT THE TROUBLE MAKER NOT TO PLEASE MY ENEMIES.

147

^

Yet they (many Pakistanis) still doubt our loyalty.

Never has Pakhtun blood been so cheap. Cannon fodder for powers that be.

148

*That would be great, but isnt it the bane of all Afghans, Pakistanis interfering in their country for the benefit of only their own. Most PAshtuns are dead against Pakistan interfernece in Afghanistan, your the first I have ever met that supported the Pak Army's "strategic depth" initiative.
*

I am the first to call for Pakistani intervention? Do names like Naseerullah Babar or AK Khan Khattak ring a bell? What Pakhtuns of Pakistan are against is indeed the manipulation of Afghanistan as some satrapy - I would agree with that view. However I beleive that Pakistan has a moral and political obligation to support Pakhtun control in Afghanistan. I don't see Pakistan-Afghanistan in an antogonistic relationship, in fact down the road we can have border and open trade.

Afghanistan must become a stable partner before these things happen, however any Indian influence there will be unacceptable.

**
And even if the Taliban do come back, it will only revert back to the civil war it was before...
You know aswell as anyone that the US govt is NOT going away anytime soon.
The Afghan army may be only a militia, but I doubt the US is going to leave until they are certain it can stand up on its own, (although I admit that with the current economic crisis, nothing is 100 percent.) And lets not forget that militias have been succesful in the past against the Taliban. The only difference is that the Talibs get more support and financing from wherver they get it.
**

Don't be so sure. Until recently no one expected the Taliban to continue to function as a fighting force. The US has very short and self serving objectives in Afghanistan and I have my doubts about their mettle.

**
If the US and other allies build the capacity within that country to support their own govt and army, then why not. If the same militias could hold back the Taliban for years, there is no reason to doubt that they wouldnt be succesful if they were even stronger.
And the Taliban coming back is still a big if. With the combined efforts of the Pak Army and the US and Nato, its questionable how succesful they will be.

Remember this time the Taliban have little or no support, as opposed to last time.

At best, the Afghan and US govts will allow some Taliban back in exchange for ceasefire... But that doesnt seem likley as the Talibs apparently want to continue the fight.

So its really a zero sum game at this point.. Them or us.**

We'll see. Last year, some people were openly boasting that the Pakistani Army would crush any resistance and here we are. Do a simple search and you will see those threads. Btw, we created this problem: first by organizing the Talibs then turning against them to appease the US. If we were not such active participants on this war on terror, Pakistan would not have faced such challenges and internal unrest.

149

So for the government to honour pakhtuns they should sacrifice the identity of Chitralis and Hindkowans? They have been overall far more loyal to Pakistan and have never shown any allegiance to other states at any time.

I dont know why Pakhtuns cant accept a neutral or more multi-cultural name? Its the 21st century. For the last 11 centuries there has never been an ethnic name associated with the region - why now?

There are manymore important ways to mainain your identity not just those cosmetic changes.

150

Oh lord not this again! Pakhtunkhwa was a name chosen under democratic means. When ANP was elected, Pakhtunkhwa was part of its platform - all eligible voters Pakhtuns, Chitralis, Hindkowan etc voted their choices, so why complain?

Pakhtunkhwa is the real name of the region before that it was Gandhara. Please don't even bother posting some paper by a self-serving Hindko speaking "anthropologist" or social scientist. Essentially Hindko speakers are more linked to Proto-Punjabis than they care to admit. Sure there might be a few Pakhtun tribal lines that may have been hindkoized but who are you guys fooling, your linkage with Punjab is much greater. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Let me explain:

Seraiki speakers: Transitional between Punjabi and Sindhi.
Mirpuri, Potoharis ("Azad Kashmiris"): Transitional between Punjabi and Kashmiri
Hindkowan: Transitional between Punjabi and Pakhtun

What is the common thread here? Punjab. I am not here to rob you of your identity or imply that being linked to Punjab is a bad thing but both genetically and empirically its there.

With that being said Hindko speakers are welcomed part of Pakhtunkhwa. No one is talking about usurping rights or alienating minority groups. There is no movement to change Baluchistan's name (becuase it is 21st century) despite a significant Pakhtun minority, so don't fret over any marginalizational issues.

As for patriotism, don't forget a certain direct referendum where the Pakhtun populace came out in favor of Pakistan.

Timepass- December 2012
151

I would assert that the main reason for the hostilities of most Afghans are for two reasons. Traditionally its the whole greater Pashtunistan issue that the Afghans have always used to try to destabalize Pak, and which Pakistan has responded to, causing a cycle.
The second is Pakistan involvement in politics of the country (which stems from the first issue). Now it seems to me that you would want Pakistan to continue with this involvement on some level.. But all this has done in the past, is create more hostility and actually created a soft spot in minds of Afghans for Indians, Enemy of my enemy..
And I assume that by gaining influence in Afghanistan, you are implying that Pashtuns will inevitably be the those calling the shots in Afghanistan. That just seems like a recipe for another civil war.

There is no reason to believe the US and foreign allies or even Pakistan are destined to fail.
The situation is very different from the one the Russians found themselves confronting.
The terrorists are really isolated, unlike years ago...
There is a renewed drive against the Taliban, and I persoanlly dont see any way they can win in the long run.

152

Infact we are only listening to the TROUBLE MAKERS..... i think we should first JUDGE the PATHANS and their ROLE .... the GREATER..... Pathan.... in high ranks......... let me Name some of them........

Ali Muhammad Jan Orakzai(Ex-Govornor NWFP)..... was the Millitary Operation Commander .... when for the first time Wazirastan Operation was Launched.

Aftab Ahmad Khan Shepao was the Home Minister... when Pervez Musharaf was carrying his Bloody Game in the Trible Belt.... and how Cleverly He was ADVOCATING the Gov't

The GOC (General Commanding Officer) in Wazirastan was one Khattack (Sorry , i donot remember his name) while wazirastan operation.

and so many can be pointed out.... who supported the Previous Gov't , and the Present Gov't too (For this WORSE GAME)..... you can see many Figures like this.

The Terrorism Cancer has not only effeted Trible Belts, NWFP but all the Pakistan ...... and the people in Pakistan.......

It is not only the problem of Pukhtoon But whole Pakistan and EVERY PAKISTANI......
About 60 people were killed in Pakistan Ordinance Factory Sucide attacks (Not Only one to quote) ... who were they.... were they Pukhtoons........?

YES, the Trible Belt and NWFP is effected more , it is Because they lies on AFGAN BORDERS.

153

Pakhtunkhwa has never been the name of the area. Most Pakhtun immigration has been more recent.

Theres nothing wrong with a linkage with Punjab but the fact is Pakhtuns have denied hindkowans of their native area. It has always been pakhtuns moving east.

Of course its usurping minority rights when the native population of an area is denied any say in it simply because they become a minority. They object to the name and are not being listened too - its a denial of their rights.

Is nt it ironic how the ANP has complained over the last 61.5 years how Pakhtuns have lost their identity, been at a disadvantage in pakistan and Punjabis dominate YET they behave no different in NWFP simply because they belong to a majority ethnic group.

What would you do if the locals in chitral, hazara decide not to refer to it as pakhtunkhwa and decide to still call it nwfp, take down wlecome to pakhtunkhwa signs?

154

Mr.joke u r saying tht pashtun migration to NWFP is quite recent, 600-800 years ago period is recent??
hinkowans shud hav protected their lands frm paxtuns in the past, but they failed to do so, now why r they crying tht province cant b renamed bcoz it "once" belong to them.
i know that renaming may damage the idenity of hindkis but all of their energy tht they r now spending against renaming ,shud hav been spent against pashtun in past.

Timepass- December 2012
155

The exact same thing can be said for the Pashtuns too. Why were they sleeping when NWFP was created not too long ago. Why Pashtuns are wasting their energy now that they should be spending on the betterment of the province.

Remember the people who live in the glass houses do not cast stones........

156

HAVE YOU COMMENTS ON MY POST........... ???????????

157

na wrora, ma ishara hinkowano pala da.

158

Re: Greater Pashtunistan

democractically, they have the right to call their land whatever the hell they want.

Furthermore the issue of hindko speaking people assumes that no other province has sizable minorities of another ethnicity. So its pretty illogical to use that argument when three other provinces have names associated with the dominant ethnicity. It doesnt matter if some of those provinces were arguably named before the ethnicity got its name, you could argue that it is now associated with the ethnic group, and therefore other minority sects feel sad, so lets change Punjab's name shall we?

And the whole we-came-here-first thing is lame beyond words. It doesnt matter who came first.

Finally, I fail to see what the national implication of this is, and if there is none, I fail to see why the federal govt has a say in it.

159

*Pakhtunkhwa has never been the name of the area. Most Pakhtun immigration has been more recent.

Theres nothing wrong with a linkage with Punjab but the fact is Pakhtuns have denied hindkowans of their native area. It has always been pakhtuns moving east.

*

Again, I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. Before 1947, the area now know as Pakistan was NOT the name of the region, in fact there were no "Pakistanis." Before the British arrival there was no "India," even the word Hind was named by the Persians/Arabs.

What is this "denial" you speak of? There is no such thing as Pakhtunkhwa being a "native" area. Hinkowan itself is modern concept propagated ethnocentrists seeking to distance themselves from Punjab. Depending on the location Hindko speakers are Punjabi-Pakhtuns or Punjabis.

**
Of course its usurping minority rights when the native population of an area is denied any say in it simply because they become a minority. They object to the name and are not being listened too - its a denial of their rights.

Is nt it ironic how the ANP has complained over the last 61.5 years how Pakhtuns have lost their identity, been at a disadvantage in pakistan and Punjabis dominate YET they behave no different in NWFP simply because they belong to a majority ethnic group.
**

Again, do you recognize that the namechange is being done through democratic means? Hindo speakers were welcome to speak out and they did - at the ballot box, what else can you want? There are plenty of minorities in each province yet it's not their place to dictate the name of the province, particularly considering the democratic process.

**
What would you do if the locals in chitral, hazara decide not to refer to it as pakhtunkhwa and decide to still call it nwfp, take down wlecome to pakhtunkhwa signs?**

They would be subverting the democratic process involving the name change. They would be no different from those calling for secessionist Pakhtunistan.

160

Thank you on all counts. I know what people will say: NWFP has so many problems why dwell on a name issue? Well basically it comes down to identity and being part of Pakistan. When my Pakhtun Grandfather voted for Pakistan, he believed in the idea of Pakistan - A muslim homeland with a place for Pakhtuns in its' colorful ethnic mosaic. He never saw himself living in NWFP - A purely Imperial British creation. Since independence (and further adding fuel to the fire) cities like Montgomery, Lyallpur were changed to reflect the more Muslim and indegenious names, why not NWFP? Simply because SOME people fear secession or others harp on unneccssary and illogical "minority" rights arguments.

Bottom line is that NWFP has to go, as it continues to abrasively serve as a colonial vestige of no useful merit.

Afwah...
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Afwah...