Re: Good Non-Muslim People
^No i don't think being a muslim is a pass to anything. Such muslims who kill any, will be worse off because they believed and claimed to follow the way of Islam and then acted totally against it by killing innocent people.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
^my understanding of islam, and i could be wrong, is that ALL muslims will eventually go to heaven based on recommendation of Prophet Muhammad. All non-muslims will burn in hell for eternity.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
If anyone thinks that God is sitting somewhere in heaven or hell or somewhere up in the sky, then he is idolizing or asigning physical characteristics to that God. It is as hopeless as a hindu thinking that God looks like vishnu and bowing before any other god.
Only advaitha of hinduism, demands no idols. You are within God and God is within you. "You" are God(tat tvam tsi) and "I" am God(aham brahmasmi). One in all and all in One. God is everywhere. (the words "you" and "I" don't have regular literal meanings)
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
^my understanding of islam, and i could be wrong, is that ALL muslims will eventually go to heaven based on recommendation of Prophet Muhammad. All non-muslims will burn in hell for eternity.
being a muslim of the name ALONE is like the being a hypocrite that acts in accordance to the manner in front of you, then backbites behind you. Muslims that practice the religion, have strong faith, submit to Allah and recognize that Muhammed (PBUH) is the last prophet and then act in ways that please Allah will inshaAllah enter paradise. And if they repent and become sincere and never commit sins again, then Allah may forgive those, for he is Almighty, The Most beneficent,and most merciful.
And i think i know which muslims you're talking about. And yes it's sad indeed to claim to be a muslim and act in such barbaric ways as you see happening today. It's hurting everyone, not just non-muslims. :(
However, i do say with firm belief that people who commit such acts are following their own literal definition and will never stop to think what they're doing. For reasons, unknown because they're devils in disguise. :(
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
so whats the difference you saw between the mosque and the temple?
None.Both give peace to the heart and mind
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
^my understanding of islam, and i could be wrong, is that ALL muslims will eventually go to heaven based on recommendation of Prophet Muhammad. All non-muslims will burn in hell for eternity.
misconception!
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Muslim are iconoclasts whereas temples are fill with idols.
as a muslim i dont need some otherway to know ALLAH SWT, whereas temple are filled with images or representations of a god used as an object of worship.
so you were wrong there. it does matter to ALLAH SWT which and how you ask him forgiveness and fulfillment of prayers cuz otherwise you are comparing the Mighty Sovereign with the piece of wood-sand or whatever.
noThing is comparable to ALLAH SWT and his Divinity!
MC2k- if guy the just calls himself a hindu whereas he never bow-worshipped any idol than ALLAH SWT know the best, but may be he is among the piousness.
brother, we dont know about ourselves and you asking us as we passing some kinda certificates 
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Not at all...why would he ascribe partners to Allah? You may think he is and that would be your fault, not his.
When I pray to Lord Vishnu I am not praying to anybody but Sri Vishnu.
If you think Sri Vishnu and Allah are distinct Gods, then him praying to Sri Vishnu does not make the two partners. ......
clip .....
In fact by Sanathana Dharma, the effects of good thoughts and deeds are even more powerful than God! By some interpretations they ARE God! Such is the beauty of Dharma!
Peace All
StirCrasy ... Please read above. I have emboldened a quote by you. You said 'good thoughts and deeds are even more powerful than God, that they are God', but this is what Muslims mean by the term 'associating partners' with God.
According to what I know about the entry to Paradise or not:
1) Pride - This is the first sin, and a major one. It is in of itself a class of shirk (associating partners with God). Here is why. Pride is termed a cloak of God, it is not befitting for a human to wear this cloak. The moment we tote 'pride' we are committing shirk by associating this Divine garment with ourselves. It was pride that led according to Muslim belief that downfall of Haarith who became Iblis - Shaitan. By assuming an Attribute of God (i.e. Pride) we are tacitly calling ourselves God.
2) Belief - This is most basic of requirements for anyone to eventually enter Paradise. They need to believe in Allah (SWT) or Bhagwan however you call it, but without the conceptual baggage of the terms assocaited with Bhagwan. Such as manifesting in human form, etc. It consists with the belief that God is One.
3) People will be judged by their actions only in as much as what their intentions have made of them. So if a person intends to please people then their reward will be likewise, but if a person pleases people intending it as worship to God then the reward will be likewise. Muslims should endeavour to make and align all actions to please God and hope that the by-product of their actions lead to pleasing humanity too. Not the other way round, because that would again be Shirk. To perform for the pleasure of man alone is not befitting for a Muslim to do.
4) Mercy - We as Muslims never say that good deeds are a ticket to Paradise. We know by an aspect of our belief system that there is nothing that we can do to EARN Paradise. Even if we spent a lifetime on Earth doing saintly things. This is because the reward of Paradise is immense one that will last an eternity. Our lives on this rock are but a mere glimpse! One shall enter Paradise only by the Mercy of God and by no other means. Good actions are a means to undertake our functions in accordance with the plans laid out for us. Good deeds brings goodness in our Earthly lives and enriches humanity whilst on Earth. Those hindus who practice good deeds get their reward in this life sure enough and also ensure for themselves that what they have worked for has been given them i.e. peace in this world and happines of their children and respect from people.
5) Lost deeds - The reason why therefore the good deeds of people is lost if they do so without belief is because those good deeds are intended for this world and not intended for the afterlife.
6) Wisdom in Judgment - According to my understandings is that those who have not been given the message of truth are bound by the laws their communities have provided. So a just person will be subject to and God will Judge him in accordance with his own law and sense of right and wrong. This argument can be extended to not being given the true picture of Islam. Some people do not know about Islam properly because their idea of it has been perverted by the media, say. They may again find themselves in such a position.
Provided these people conform with their inner fitrah which tells them that God is One, (because this concept does not need Islam) they are then subject by the Mercy of God to enter Paradise. It is important to realise this that no matter which time, or place even the most primitive and isolated people have ingrained in them a sense of 'Oneness in Diety' and that should never be compromised.
7) Rank - People will enter Jannah at different times and in differing ranks. Their rewards will be porportional accordingly ... According to our belief the poorest person in Paradise will have more wealth than the bounties and pleasures of this Earthly existence several times over. (Either 3 or 7 times I forgot which).
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Peace All
StirCrasy ... Please read above. I have emboldened a quote by you. You said 'good thoughts and deeds are even more powerful than God, that they are God', but this is what Muslims mean by the term 'associating partners' with God.
I think some of our difficulty here is not knowing when (mutually) to take what very literally and when to just try and understand a concept.
On the part that you had highlighted, my purpose is to show the importance that Hindu philosophies place on causality rather than a single universal goal whether it be paradise or unity or God. This of course leads to a variety of disagreements then and that is why we have so many major and minor schools of philosophy within and outside of Hinduism. (As a side note, I think this diversity of philosophy, the level and strength of it, is one of the reasons it is easier for a Hindu to accept and co-exist with other religions).
If you are able to take a look at some of the Vedanta discussions you will find numerous treatises begin with questions such as "what is the purpose of...". Very few will however proscribe an answer....the beauty lies in the indication of the avenues of thought, methods for resolution....one or more of which will apply and appeal to the mind of the inquirer depending upon their then state in life and development.
Hence Sanathana Dharma is basically a scientific inquiry - dealing with the sciences of the soul spirit and relationships of the self with everything else. Some parts of it will actually read very atheistic - because some rationale of atheists stem from extreme and simplistic objectivity and so you can find such similarity. Key difference being atheists do not seek causes and only argue on effects ultimately.
As to God and assigning partners etc - it is my view that it is simply counting a dozen as 1x12 or 2x6 or 3x4....they are all the same. Once a person accepts there is something above all parts of the universe and that no part can comprehend fully that 'something', what difference does it make whether that something is viewed as 1 something or 2 half-somethings or 100 centile somethings?
Einstein is widely credited with advancing the understanding of mass and energy. Many Hindu schools of thought will talk about Shakthi and Shivam.
Darwin espoused on evolution and progression of species through natural selection. Many Hindu schools of thought will talk about evolution symbolized in the avtars of Vishnu.
Now scientists are seriously discussion quantum theories and dimension beyond time space, black holes that swallow time etc. Many Hindu schools of thought will explain the regressive time scale of yughas, how time vascillates and how causality defines and in turn gets redefined by yugha dharmas.
I can go on and on...purpose not being to show that Hinduism or Sanatha Dharma has discovered all there is to it ...but just to show that how it is possible to and necessary to deal with everything including God as both entitities and concepts of the mind seeking something outside itself.
The difference then between the atheist and the non-atheist is what? If the purpose of religion (any religion) is morality, the non-atheist has a shorter route to learning what the rules of such morality are. The atheist wants to arrive at the root-morals by themsleves without a trust in 'faith'.
But not everybody can withstand the rigor of such causal thinking...even atheists. So they also resort to matters of faith....while the believer needs God to believe, the atheist needs God to deny!
Given this, variations such as which God, partnership or lack thereof etc are minor to the thoughtful mind
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Quran 4:48 *Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin. *
and the good deeds of such people go waste as the verse tells us.... Quran 18:105 *Those are they who disbelieve in the revelations of their Lord and in the meeting with Him. Therefor their works are vain, and on the Day of Resurrection We assign no weight to them. *
Al-Baqarah Chapter 2 : Verse 63
Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
I have a question to ask the religious experts here.
I have a hindu friend. He is the kindest and most nicest person I have ever met. Not a single person has ever said a bad thing about him nor has he sad a bad thing about anyone. He is obedient to his parents. Never did anything sinful.
But he is a Hindu.
Will he go to Hell when he dies because he is non-muslim, even though he is so kind hearted?
Please explain
You call yourself a Muslim...What does your faith teach you...Forget what your heart tells you...What is the result of those who do shirk? You tell me...
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Aunt Zobia,
By workshipping idol ..i am not hurting anyone. All I am doing is by making an image of god i am workshipping him.piece of wood and sand is also created by him.
How about you when you slaughter an innocent animal for praising allah? you are taking an innocent life but when i am workshipping through idol none is hurt.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
I think some of our difficulty here is not knowing when (mutually) to take what very literally and when to just try and understand a concept.
On the part that you had highlighted, my purpose is to show the importance that Hindu philosophies place on causality rather than a single universal goal whether it be paradise or unity or God. This of course leads to a variety of disagreements then and that is why we have so many major and minor schools of philosophy within and outside of Hinduism. (As a side note, I think this diversity of philosophy, the level and strength of it, is one of the reasons it is easier for a Hindu to accept and co-exist with other religions).
If you are able to take a look at some of the Vedanta discussions you will find numerous treatises begin with questions such as "what is the purpose of...". Very few will however proscribe an answer....the beauty lies in the indication of the avenues of thought, methods for resolution....one or more of which will apply and appeal to the mind of the inquirer depending upon their then state in life and development.
Hence Sanathana Dharma is basically a scientific inquiry - dealing with the sciences of the soul spirit and relationships of the self with everything else. Some parts of it will actually read very atheistic - because some rationale of atheists stem from extreme and simplistic objectivity and so you can find such similarity. Key difference being atheists do not seek causes and only argue on effects ultimately.
As to God and assigning partners etc - it is my view that it is simply counting a dozen as 1x12 or 2x6 or 3x4....they are all the same. Once a person accepts there is something above all parts of the universe and that no part can comprehend fully that 'something', what difference does it make whether that something is viewed as 1 something or 2 half-somethings or 100 centile somethings?
Einstein is widely credited with advancing the understanding of mass and energy. Many Hindu schools of thought will talk about Shakthi and Shivam.
Darwin espoused on evolution and progression of species through natural selection. Many Hindu schools of thought will talk about evolution symbolized in the avtars of Vishnu.
Now scientists are seriously discussion quantum theories and dimension beyond time space, black holes that swallow time etc. Many Hindu schools of thought will explain the regressive time scale of yughas, how time vascillates and how causality defines and in turn gets redefined by yugha dharmas.
I can go on and on...purpose not being to show that Hinduism or Sanatha Dharma has discovered all there is to it ...but just to show that how it is possible to and necessary to deal with everything including God as both entitities and concepts of the mind seeking something outside itself.
The difference then between the atheist and the non-atheist is what? If the purpose of religion (any religion) is morality, the non-atheist has a shorter route to learning what the rules of such morality are. The atheist wants to arrive at the root-morals by themsleves without a trust in 'faith'.
But not everybody can withstand the rigor of such causal thinking...even atheists. So they also resort to matters of faith....while the believer needs God to believe, the atheist needs God to deny!
Given this, variations such as which God, partnership or lack thereof etc are minor to the thoughtful mind
Very nice post.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Aunt Zobia,
By workshipping idol ..i am not hurting anyone. How about you when you slaughter an innocent animal for praising allah?
how can you say you are not hurting anyone?
"The wounding remark can injure the spirit greater than the sword can harm the body".
it hurts me more when i see hands try to compete their creator. we are not made for this. this way you are restricting your domain of finding ALLAH SWT, your hunger to seek the realization, and sensation connected with this phenomenon!
[QUOTE]
All I am doing is by making an image of god i am workshipping him.piece of wood and sand is also created by him.
[/QUOTE]
you are also created by the God, why dont you worship yourselves then? why you need to make something and then to worship it. y dont you believe your thinking, and feel ALLAH SWT's presence that where ever you are, or where you are not, ALLAH SWT is there.
[QUOTE]
you are taking an innocent life but when i am workshipping through idol none is hurt.
[/QUOTE]
plants are also living-things, so why you even eat them as well? another aspect is of carrying capacity, dont forget excessiveness of any thing disturbs the [food] chain.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
^Awesome responses Z. :)
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Great post Br.
If I get your point correctly then it is Allah SWT mercy which grants entry into paradise and then our deeds which get us to a certain position in it.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Correcto! :)
I dono how many of have heard this about this one man who worshipped for 400 years, he gave up his worldly affairs and moved into the wilderness just so he could worship Allah and do nothing else. When he was to die, He only had one wish that he dies in Sajda. Allah almighty granted that duaa and his soul left the body while he was performing Sajda.
On the day of Qiyamah...when he is to be brought before the Lord Almighty, he will seek to be repaid for his good deeds. Allah will have granted him paradise, for he is Most Merciful, Most beneficent. But man being a man, will ask 'But Allah, i prayed, and worshipped none other than you for 400 years, surely there must be some way that i have EARNED paradise, so Allah will command the angels and order them to do him justice and weight his deeds with the gifts he had received at birth'
The angels begin by putting just the gift of one eye and its eyesight alone on one side of the scale, and all his worship and good deeds on the other, the gift of eyesight, ALONE, will outweigh all his deeeds, then he will ask for Allah's mercy that he hath misjudged. Surely, no matter how much we worship Allah, it is not enough. It is only through His mercy alone that we live, we eat, we breath, and by His mercy and forgiveness alone shall we be granted paradise and saved from the torment of hell.
I wish i could source for you the narration....i will do my best to find it and repost it here later. But the point is that, we may think that by doing somethings good we are doing a favor, but it's nothing but the mercy of Allah that we are even able to perform that deed.
May Allah guide us all to do the best of deeds in this world, so that our hereafter turn out to be that of comfort.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
how can you say you are not hurting anyone?
"The wounding remark can injure the spirit greater than the sword can harm the body".
it hurts me more when i see hands try to compete their creator. we are not made for this. this way you are restricting your domain of finding ALLAH SWT, your hunger to seek the realization, and sensation connected with this phenomenon!
you are also created by the God, why dont you worship yourselves then? why you need to make something and then to worship it. y dont you believe your thinking, and feel ALLAH SWT's presence that where ever you are, or where you are not, ALLAH SWT is there.
plants are also living-things, so why you even eat them as well? another aspect is of carrying capacity, dont forget excessiveness of any thing disturbs the [food] chain.
What a lame excuse to slaughter animals. Does god wantsppl to kill animals just to praise him???
God is omnipresent. The idol is treated as a medium to workship god. I dont find any issues with that. It is million times better than killing an innocent animal.
All i know is my god is much broad minded. He wont mind if I go to mosque or temple/He wont mind if i workshop him by making his idol.
But he will mind if i hurt others/didnt help ppl in need.
God has given me brain so i can use it fully rather than following what is written in a book. I have enough sense to understand what is right and wrong.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
I think some of our difficulty here is not knowing when (mutually) to take what very literally and when to just try and understand a concept.
On the part that you had highlighted, my purpose is to show the importance that Hindu philosophies place on causality rather than a single universal goal whether it be paradise or unity or God. This of course leads to a variety of disagreements then and that is why we have so many major and minor schools of philosophy within and outside of Hinduism. (As a side note, I think this diversity of philosophy, the level and strength of it, is one of the reasons it is easier for a Hindu to accept and co-exist with other religions).
This does not directly address my concerns about Shirk. In Islam the sense of being good to people is still there just like in the philosophies of Hinduism. I would however insist in saying that Muslims should have no reason not to co-exist with other religions, but the aim is not to co-exist and be assimilated or diluted and it is towards providing a basis for the best understanding for others to adopt Islam in the long run. This fact appears confrontational but is no more confrontational than being made to accept norms and those norms which are actually harmful to society.
If you are able to take a look at some of the Vedanta discussions you will find numerous treatises begin with questions such as "what is the purpose of...". Very few will however proscribe an answer....the beauty lies in the indication of the avenues of thought, methods for resolution....one or more of which will apply and appeal to the mind of the inquirer depending upon their then state in life and development.
By 'proscribe' I think you mean 'provide' so I will continue on this basis. Answers are given to important questions. Most questions are not important. However I would interject that the question of 'purpose of life' is worth an answer and those of us who side-step the answer are arguing without knowledge and are like the blind leading the blind. The Qur'an makes this answer clear to us. 'Not but to worship God'. With this answer all of the avenues that the 'blind' provide are acceptable but with a context and it is this context that is called 'guidance'. If one does not intend to find the answers and is overly content on the details then it can be very easy to lead us astray from our direction. It is because we stop looking at universal good and start to concentrate on relative 'good' and that can be disasterous.
Hence Sanathana Dharma is basically a scientific inquiry - dealing with the sciences of the soul spirit and relationships of the self with everything else. Some parts of it will actually read very atheistic - because some rationale of atheists stem from extreme and simplistic objectivity and so you can find such similarity. Key difference being atheists do not seek causes and only argue on effects ultimately.
You see there is a third ... There is a cause, there are effects but there are also consequences of those effects and it is a process of being thorough with the cause-effect situation that will lead to answers. You are walking thata way ... where have you come from? dunno? Then where are you going? And why are you going?
As to God and assigning partners etc - it is my view that it is simply counting a dozen as 1x12 or 2x6 or 3x4....they are all the same. Once a person accepts there is something above all parts of the universe and that no part can comprehend fully that 'something', what difference does it make whether that something is viewed as 1 something or 2 half-somethings or 100 centile somethings?
True monotheism observes the 'Absoluteness' in 'Oneness' that is the indivisible One. Nothing can exceed it. The moment you entertain that notion as above then the one that was presented was never One in the first place.
Einstein is widely credited with advancing the understanding of mass and energy. Many Hindu schools of thought will talk about Shakthi and Shivam.
Darwin espoused on evolution and progression of species through natural selection. Many Hindu schools of thought will talk about evolution symbolized in the avtars of Vishnu.
Now scientists are seriously discussion quantum theories and dimension beyond time space, black holes that swallow time etc. Many Hindu schools of thought will explain the regressive time scale of yughas, how time vascillates and how causality defines and in turn gets redefined by yugha dharmas.
I can go on and on...purpose not being to show that Hinduism or Sanatha Dharma has discovered all there is to it ...but just to show that how it is possible to and necessary to deal with everything including God as both entitities and concepts of the mind seeking something outside itself.
You don't half make things difficult ... God for us is not a concept. The Muslim view of God is the Utter Reality. If anything we are the concept we are the creation. Again to believe otherwise is Shirk.
The difference then between the atheist and the non-atheist is what? If the purpose of religion (any religion) is morality, the non-atheist has a shorter route to learning what the rules of such morality are. The atheist wants to arrive at the root-morals by themsleves without a trust in 'faith'.
But not everybody can withstand the rigor of such causal thinking...even atheists. So they also resort to matters of faith....while the believer needs God to believe, the atheist needs God to deny!
Given this, variations such as which God, partnership or lack thereof etc are minor to the thoughtful mind
You see we put it all most simply. We believe what we are shown from Truth, those who don't may do so because of their own desires. Desire or inertia in their own biases, money, fame, family or traditions. There are truths in Hinduism that people were not prepared to live by so they formed 'excuses'.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
What a lame excuse to slaughter animals. Does god wantsppl to kill animals just to praise him???
God is omnipresent. The idol is treated as a medium to workship god. I dont find any issues with that. It is million times better than killing an innocent animal. All i know is my god is much broad minded. He wont mind if I go to mosque or temple/He wont mind if i workshop him by making his idol. But he will mind if i hurt others/didnt help ppl in need. God has given me brain so i can use it fully rather than following what is written in a book. I have enough sense to understand what is right and wrong.
and what is that lame excuse?