GOD--is IT for real?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Why should there be GOD?

Why can’t we just believe in ourselves?
If we know we are going to die one day? Can that information not be enough for our salvation to act HUMBLE in this world?

Please answer without quoting any HOLY book, or HOLY PERSON. Argue with your own intellect.

Just think of yourselves As HUMANS FIRST, not a MUSLIM, HINDU, or JEW or any other mono-poly-isthic relegions ever invented on earth.
What will happen if we NEVER had any religion.

Peace on earth is abstract. Hapiness is abstract and a MINDSET, If we agree(iff we agree) that peace is an unattainable idlistic approach to world whee would we be?

if Morality changes from person to person than why social circle is norm? Who decides that?

cogito ergo sum… “I think therefore I am…” & “I am therefore I think”

2

To me (and I am thinking as a science student…) the evolution of humans is so complicated as to be completely impossible to rationalise by Darwin’s ideas - hence there must be a God. Let me expand…

Random evolution, the creation of any life-form without divine guidance, requires so many freak coincidences as to be impossible to imagine. Okay, amino acids have been proven to exist in space, but for a bunch of amino acid to enter the atmosphere intact, to approach each other at the right orientation and with sufficient energy to allow molecular orbitals to overlap for bonds to form, for these larger molecules to react more and more for the first proteins to form seems to require an extraordinary concidence. For these proteins to then have reacted correctly to for the first strand of nucleic acid seems a further extraordinary coincidence. For this single, isolated strand to have survived in atmospheric conditions is another extraordinary coincidence.

For this strand of nucleic formed in such a way to be programmed to create structures leading to the first cell seems to be an coincidence. For this cell to come together for the first time with the correct genetic programming to collect energy from the environment is another coincidence.

And so on… every step in the development of the cell into the next organism, and then for a diveristy of organisms, and eventually right up to the first sentient species, seems to require an extraordinary coincidence.

Now consider the mathematics.

If each extraordinary coincidence, say had a tiny likelyhood, say on average 0.000001% (and that’s being generous). Statistical law stipulates that that the probabality of eevents A, B and C all happening is:

p(A)*p(B)*p(C), where p(A) is the probability of event A happening, and so on.

Now in the previous scenario, even if random evolution only required 1000 extraordinary coincidences to achieve, say, an elephant, each extraordinary coincidence with a probability of 0.000001%, the likelyhood of
an elephant evolving would be

(0.000001^1000)%
where ^ means “to the power of”

Now given that 1000 is a very very low number of extraordinary coincidences that would be required, the odds are incredibly heavily stacked against the evolution of humans, which are incredibly complex compared to elephants. In fact, the evolution of humans by pure chance appears to be downright impossible.

Thus I feel that there should be a God because that is the only plausible reason for our existence.

I could also, if you like, go into a whole motherload of freak coincidences if you like, but that would realy serve little purpose and would just waste my time

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

3

mixing science and religion is never a good idea.
Mad Scientist, you didnt take into account the duration over which evolution happened, we are used to a different time frame and its hard for us to fathom. I think we are overly impressed with nature, kinda like how kids get impressed with magic tricks.
I recently worked on a project where we used this sort of randomness, and the results always leave you impressed, about 7 out of 10 times they were better than what a human would have done.

4

I agree with maani and mad scientist both. All of us know tat evolution or religion both are such things that we can fight about it for the rest of our lives.

Mad scientist...I am not even worried about HOW WE ARE CREATED. WHAT was our beginning? WHO MADE US? WHY WE ARE HERE.

I AM more worried about AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE WHAT MUST WE DO AS A HUMAN...

So far all the religions of the world even the devil worshiping has merits and guidance to better our lives. Whether that idea involved GOD in it or evolution.

My thing every human being has following good and bad

weaknesses
insecurities

Kindness
Always help others.

Above all ALL of us only SRIVE for happiness...

So in weakness we tend to over look our strengths and in insecurities we shun our selves into more weakness of character(watever may that be)

I found it very hard to accept the NORMS of any culture present today. I agree with goodness of GITA, commandments of MOSSES, Powers of JESUS, and INFLUENCE of an illiterate man named MOHAMAD who single handedly made it possible for people to organize and coordinate themselves.

But I also believe that after all these people died their ideology died with them because everyone of the followers created a greater mess cos they interpreted THEIR ideologies through their own experiences. JOHN said He should leave his wife and take cyllebecy(wrong spelling) so catholics were born similar to the idea of BUDDHA who left his throne and famly to get NIRVANA and thus created BUDDHISM. Shias want cliphs to go to hell trying to deny the most important part of history that CALIPHS are part of ISLAMIC HISTORY and it was because of first three CALIPHS ISLAM spread all over the world. SUnnis never denied IMAMS importance but in retaliation to SHIAS concepts they had to get pissed off,hence more offshoots like deobandi, ahmadi, etc, etc...

All this was only for one reason: KEEP everyone happy.

MOST of all keep oneself happy.

As humans we all feel

happy, sad, angry, sleepy, tired, inlove, in lust, inferior to others superior to others, and soon.
When one human fails to see that the actual nature of him/her is still lost in space cos the religion(any religion) failed to make them over come those feelings he or she feels left out.

My point is on that. When we fail to be recognized we invent things, we create things, so we can feel alive, get rid of boredom and lonliness. If we can't we then become a great threat for ourselves FIRST and then for others.

Religion or no religion, GOD or no GOD, we are born in a certain gograhical locations, evolution , probabilty whateer it is. HOw we behave and act is entirley different thing.

PLease tell me if you agree or disagree.
Again PLease leave GOD aside, whether HE?SHE created this earth and hevaens or not.
Why cante we just have enough FAITH in ourselves to overcome our most nsecurities.
If we cant then acceting them is the first step?????????

cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"

5

[quote]
Originally posted by Philosopher:
**
I AM more worried about AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE WHAT MUST WE DO AS A HUMAN...
**
[/quote]

And this is the fundamental difference inour opinions.

The view that I take is FOR WHAT PURPOSE AM I HERE, AND HOW DO I FULFILL THAT PURPOSE?

As far as I can make out, my purpose is to worship my Creator through obeying his commands.

[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited June 02, 2001).]

6

[quote]
Originally posted by maani:
mixing science and religion is never a good idea.
Mad Scientist, you didnt take into account the duration over which evolution happened, we are used to a different time frame and its hard for us to fathom. I think we are overly impressed with nature, kinda like how kids get impressed with magic tricks.
I recently worked on a project where we used this sort of randomness, and the results always leave you impressed, about 7 out of 10 times they were better than what a human would have done.
[/quote]

Well as far as I can see, evolution had the opportunity to occur over billions of years. I am purely looking at the problem from a viewpoint of the chemical reactions that must have taken place during this time to lead up to the creation of large life-forms (me being a chemistry degree student). The chemistry of life is so incredibly complex, so incredibly balance, that I fail to see how a living system could come to exist randomly, even given billions of years.

To me, the existence of life itself is a testimony to God's existence.

Oh, and I for one cannot separate science from religion, or for that matter I cannot separate religion from anything as I feel that a true religion manifests itself in every aspect of life.

7

I look at religion in a different light. In the earlier part of our collective histories, and lack of scientific knowledge and method we were in need of a divine principle. Let me expand.....

In all religions the basic tenetse are the same. i.e. Thou shalt not kill, steal, adultery, and so on....

These are basically natural laws that from the Neighbur(sp) or Locke premise that humans are generally bad, and compounded by the Darwinian theory of natural selection prevent us from destroying our species.

Unfortunately religion has not done a good enough job of becoming universal because it has tried to equate being good with eventual entry into heaven or hell or as a re-incarnate. It makes more sense to equate being good with your own survival thereby improving accountability and not defering responsibility to after-life.

As to Mad Sci's point about the veracity of a higher power due to the randomness of our existence. It may or may not be true. If it gives us hope for a guiding light and provides security for what we have yet not learned, then great. My problem is with our use of the term God in religion.

God is created by humans as a security blanket to establish their rights over the limited resources of this world. Thereby, creating different attributes for him/her in different religions. Thus making the one thing that can be a unifying force....keep humanity apart.

Unfortunately over the course of humanity ,religion had become nothing more than a collection of practices of habit rather than reverrence for divinity. Plus the religious books have become nothing more than history to be interpreted by the reader. Thereby removing sprituality from religion. What we are left with is that hindus don't eat beef and muslims don't eat pork. Catholics cannot eat meat on fridays during lent but fish is o.k..

I think it's great that due to our different geographies we can call something we don't understand be it science, nature, god.....with different names. But to tell me that one faith is the right faith or one god is the right god is not only expressing control over something we don't understand but results from practice rather than spirituality.

8

Any one who wants to appreciate the presence of God, just look around yourself and see various things but if that's not enough to convince you, get up to the space station and look at the earth. I don't think any human could have created a unieverse like that.

9

Here's another thought from some one else, not mine:

The light of God surrounds me;
The love of God enfolds me;
The power of God protects me;
The presence of God watches me over;
Where I am, God is !

You can substitute Allah if you like but the meaning remains the same.

10

You can also substitute Ishwer, Jesus, Yahweh or any other diety that you like.

11

Mr. Philosopher,

To have exact knowledge about God is NOT POSSIBLE USING ONLY THE INTELLECT.

Why?

Because intellect is not perfact.

To Consult Holy Book i.e, Quran is a MUST in order to have the exact knowledge about God.

And what about the need of God?

Well, Quran itself has stated that man always look for God in bad times.

So you just have to analyse your own feelings in your bad times. You shall become aware of need of God.

12

[quote]
Originally posted by babar123:
**Mr. Philosopher,

To have exact knowledge about God is NOT POSSIBLE USING ONLY THE INTELLECT.

Why?

Because intellect is not perfact.

To Consult Holy Book i.e, Quran is a MUST in order to have the exact knowledge about God.

And what about the need of God?

Well, Quran itself has stated that man always look for God in bad times.

So you just have to analyse your own feelings in your bad times. You shall become aware of need of God.

**
[/quote]

That's B.S....one does not need to know the quran to be in touch with god...that is not only presumptuous but also arrogantly abusive towards other religions. I could claim the same by reading the gia or the bible....

13

I agree 1000000% with infoman, but infoman, here people come to argue blindly not openly, keep on repeating quran, hadith, etc, etc, outside that they have no clue they feel and believe they are lost.

what happens if we have no GOD. Or what happens if you abolish religion. All the religious people think that that would be end of the world, most unlikely. As u said infoman "MAN created religion to gain control..."

Morality is not cause of religion. The extreme of any thing may it be religion is simply harmful and hazardous for the humans.

There is no GOD but faith in ourselves. and that changes everytime we encounter something new or different or just oout of the ordinary in our lives?

cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"

14

I get the idea that u dont want to be proven of God's existence.. rather u want to theoretically look over WHY we need God.. or what impact would it have on our life..... Assuming that.. here's what i think.

Why can't we just believe in ourselves?
If we know we are going to die one day? Can that information not be enough for our salvation to act HUMBLE in this world? ]

Apparently not. Do you not see how religion converted an illetrate nation into one of learned, behaved, human people? There are many examples in history.

What will happen if we NEVER had any religion. ]

Again, you only need to go through history to find out.

**Peace on earth is abstract. Hapiness is abstract and a MINDSET, If we agree(iff we agree) that peace is an unattainable idlistic approach to world whee would we be?

if Morality changes from person to person than why social circle is norm? Who decides that?** ]

Happiness is a mindset, i agree.. but are we, as humans, strong enough to impose that mindset on ourselves?

Again PLease leave GOD aside, whether HE?SHE created this earth and hevaens or not.
Why cante we just have enough FAITH in ourselves to overcome our most nsecurities.
If we cant then acceting them is the first step????????? ]

Lets leave God/Religion aside? alrite..

The one problem that arises is that we're left without a norm.. why do we need a norm? well, do u see the amount of disagreements between people of different religions? can u imagine the amount of disagreements between people if everyone of us tried to be our own god?

You ask.. Why do we need God?.. or Why do we not have enough faith in ourselves to accept our 'insecurities'.. ?

Well,
Is the concept of God only there to help us overcome our insecurities.. or lets say.. our imperfections? maybe.. and that is simply because we are not God.

We need the concept of God to be there to help us define a norm for ourselves, or we'd be rather like animals. We need the concept not because we're insecure, but because we are not.. and can not be perfect.

15

**what happens if we have no GOD. Or what happens if you abolish religion. All the religious people think that that would be end of the world, most unlikely. As u said infoman "MAN created religion to gain control..."

Morality is not cause of religion. The extreme of any thing may it be religion is simply harmful and hazardous for the humans. ** ]

Man did NOT create relgion(*). Man just accepted that religion (or a single universal belief) is necessary to regulate our lives.

I agree that Morality is not because of religion.. rather morality is built in our nature, religion only enforces it.

There is no GOD but faith in ourselves. and that changes everytime we encounter something new or different or just oout of the ordinary in our lives? ]

Lets accept that there is no God for the sake of discussion. Do you not see how every person would be his own god? God or religion is not there to stop or limit us to a certain belief, rather its there to help us grow, and at the same time prevent a state where everyone's belief would be different(hence creating a lot of trouble!) just because they've seen different things, or been through different experiences.

Call it God/Religion.. ANYTHING. It just defines a norm.. and a norm is needed to hold us all together.

()Man did not.. and *could not have created religion(any religion).. religion is something very complex, and its completeness is too much for a human mind to comprehend.. or define.

[This message has been edited by ammarr (edited June 03, 2001).]

16

Ammarr: I agree somewhat with your thinking. My only input here is that religion is a fabrication of man.....one does not religion to enforce morality. Unfortunately, that is what is happening and what we get is one group's interpretation of that moral code via religion.

I guess where we differ is the definition of religion....I think that what is now called religion is nothing but various practices thrown together held by historical lore to revere the unknown. Religion is definitely man made...spirituality is not.

17

[quote]
Originally posted by Philosopher:
**

I AM more worried about AS LONG AS WE ARE HERE WHAT MUST WE DO AS A HUMAN...

**
[/quote]

bro, if you genuinly wish to get fulfiling answer to these questions, then i suggest you to get hold of Nahajul-Balagha (english translation: Peak of Eloquance) and have a read.

Khuda hafiz

18

Ammar & PAglu,

I don't care if there is a GOD or not. I will never see HIM, speak to him or even dream about him.

Hence, I put that figment aside. I concentrated on simple aspects of life, nature of things.

Why do we get hurt?
why do we steal,
why do we lie,
why do we feel sad
etc etc...

answers change everytime.

Similarirly the more humans gained knowledge of the world he lives in the more religions he created, the lesser gods he believed in. And now we are only left with one GOD universaly accepted.

It is easy to lessen our burdens, our worries by saying "IF GOD WILLING" or inshallah, etc etc...our psyche tries to blame other person first. or a modest man never tries to takecredit for anything.

But the day we start taking responsibilities of our actions be it love or hate or sadness or mess ups we will not need god.

WHEN we say "PERFECT" it means UNFALIBLE. FAlible meaning nothing will be wrong, actions or whatever that PERFECTNESS does or creates.

NOW here I am bursting the bubble. If GOD is PERFECT than he will make things PERFECT? YES?

then why do we die?
or why do we have imperfections. If we are created by GOD then we MUST and not may be but MUSt be perfect too. then we MUST be ONIPOTENT, ALMIGHTY too.
PERFECT THING BEING makes or creates perfect things. WE HUMAns or any so called creation of GOD is IMPERFECT.

So There is no such thing as PERFECT.

NOw that being said...

LEts accept tat weare not perfect. Evereything really becomes easier rathe than complicated.

Just take responsiblity for our actions. we will be etter people, stop blaming other people for our mess ups. We are in any given situation cos we invited ourseles in it.

Thats my simple question.

We dont need IMAGINATION to create something that is not there be it GOD.

We all know even the stupid person knows wat he orse is doing right..we just dont accept it, we want to keep denying it, orhave no courage to ace the truth.

Yes, Our human intellect is strong enough to acept the things we do or cannot do,
dut this religion business has sure confused the crap put of simplicity. TAking control over minds or as INFOMAN says(read infomans replies)

We are here to be LOVED, but some CAn't LOVE US,
we are not erfect.
and guess what
someone said" if we stop lying to ourselves(as we can't lie to others, we only lie to ourselves)our insecurities will be out the door. We wont be scared of aything or ayone.

cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"

19

Bro philospher, rational thoughts there. Although i doubt very much if you will be able to get fully satisfying answer Online.

Bro, let me repeat what i said earlier. Read Nahjul Balagha and you will find a lot about who we are? and what are we here for?.

It is a very useful book. Specially for thinking and wisdom-seeker people like you.

20

Philosopher,

U missed two important points in my post, let me clarify them again.

**But the day we start taking responsibilities of our actions be it love or hate or sadness or mess ups we will not need god. ** ]

I have nothing against taking responsibility for your own actions. Indeed, we are the only ones who, in the end, are responsible for our actions. BUT, when u say that we do NOT need God, i.e. the concept of God, that is where i disagree with you. God, as you put it, is not just a concept. It in itself holds many religions(people/nations) together. And I’ve explained the importance of religion/God in my previous post. Do read it again if u’re confused.

Saying ‘insha’llah’ or God willing is not about blaming God.. or not accepting ur responsiblity.. its about putting trust. Putting trust in the unseen. (If u want to debate the existence of God, that can be done in a separate thread) Putting trust in the fact that things would work out for you, if they’re for the better. If you dont believe in God, you wont see the usefulness of saying Insha’llah/God willing.

In conclusion, we will never be perfect enough to remove God from our lives.

NOW here I am bursting the bubble. If GOD is PERFECT than he will make things PERFECT? YES? ]

Now this is where I find that u’re not putting enough thought behind your words. You say that God is not perfect because what he has created, is not perfect? Well, I fail to understand how can you NOT see the perfectness in this world.

We, humans, are not perfect. But the system we live in, is. Is it not the perfect mixture of good and bad? Do you not see how pain/suffering is an essential part of growing up? Do u think we would be at our current technological level, had God made every one of us immortal, and (your concept of) perfect? I see perfectness in the way this system lets me grow, and yet holds me back. I see perfectness in the way there is happiness, and yet enough sadness/hurt to keep us working for the better. There is ease.. and then there is strife.. to get the best out of us.

I see perfectness in God, and I see perfectness in the system he has created. The perfectness of the system helps me get closer to perfection.

Infoman,

First of all, you are entitled to your point of view and i’m entitled to mine.. there is no right or wrong,.. I just find it challenging that u dont agree with mine

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

. I’ll make another attempt to clarify myself.

Religion, could be a few practices thrown together.. or it could be a system devised, not by humans but, by God.

Let me ask you something, is it possible for any of us to define a system, which encompasses people like us.. people who are different, people from All over the globe, people of All colors, under one banner? I dont think man is capable of it.

Now I do understand you saying that it is man-made, since u see the imperfections, or the holes in the system. The trouble is, we have never tried to impose one system over all of us. Even in our current world, even when we say that there are 4(or 5) major religions, we are all in effect following our own God, or our will. If we do try imposing one set of (flexible) rules over a large majority of people, we’ll understand that such a system is NOT and can NOT be made by humans. Try studying the ‘systems’ that most religions have defined, and you should understand that its not man’s work.

You might think that religion is man-made, to control us humans.. and keep us under one banner. For me to prove that religion does exist, I’ll have to go through miracles related with religion which have happened/and are still happening. would u want me to do that?

The fact is, religion WAS always here, man just accepted that its completeness in defining the ‘grey’ areas for us, was essential for (regulating) our society.

[This message has been edited by ammarr (edited June 05, 2001).]