Ammarr man
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very nice
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We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile
Sin: Osama Bin Junior
LOOK AT SUN:
Every square-yard of it radiates 130,000 HorsePower of energy.The equivalent of 45 eight-cylinder engines.Yet it's only one of a
hundred billion planets on the Milky Way.And if one of them move 2 degrees without GOD's permission, it will mean catastrophe for us all.
LOOK AT EARTH:
Weighing about more than Six Trillion tons,and tilted exactly 23 degrees--just right! Even one degree off, and the seasons as we know them would disappear,and we'd all drown in colossal polar-meltdown.We are a passenger on an "Earth-Ship" that has been travelling faster than the speed of sound for thousands of years,without once breaking down,blowing up,or tumbling out of orbit. Think of the intelligence that put it all together.
The more we know about GOD's Celestial workshop,our concept of him grows and our faith in him increases.
[This message has been edited by TARIQ786USA (edited June 05, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Infoman:
** That's B.S....one does not need to know the quran to be in touch with god...that is not only presumptuous but also arrogantly abusive towards other religions. I could claim the same by reading the gia or the bible....
**
[/quote]
Mr. Infoman,
facts are facts. So it is useless to become abusive after you have heared a fact from some one.
I did not intend to heart others.
But facts go against them so they may become heart.
You please note another fact that "you could NOT claim the same by reading the gia or the bible...."
BECAUSE.......
if you are the follower of any of these books in true sense, then you must be aware that these Books eventually would lead you towards the Quran.
If you are the follower of any of these Books BUT not in true sense, then, atleast, you must be aware that these Books do not introduce you of God in as comprehensive way as Quran has introduced.
Kindly also note that Quran is not only for Mulims. It is a Book for all Human kind. So others need not be abusive on its references.
Philosopher you have started a rubbish topic regarding the biggest topic of the philosophy where all the philosophy starts , and philosophy has always been a never ending story . I am definite sure you are studying philosophy and is having a lot of influence within yourself(i.e. convincing) when I was studying it I had the same situation to face. But if this is the compulsory question , then you are not the smartest one , know "Molana Hasrat Muhani" , he was the leader of the Communist party and had eleven Hajjes into his credit , his argument was if there is no God my good deeds will be of no use but I am fairly glad with it and I am doing what I WANT TO Do , but if there is God I will be rewarded by the God for what I have done.
Philosophy is the name of the never satisfying subject, World is there because of Philosophy , Philosophy is the attitude that is trying to fulfil the every room for betterment that is impossible.
Religion is some belief that is here to follow , without adding of the harams or halals and is to be followed accordingly, and the God is the Hard core of all religions , if you try to miss the hard core of it , there is no religion .
Religion gives meaning to life that is a finite time , you associate every action as good or bad and have satisfaction or dissaticfaction upon your actions. Philosophically if you start thinking upon your first action , you will spent your whole life calculating , was that a good action or a bad action.
The question is doing a single action in the entire life of fifty sixty years is better or doing several thousand actions , that give several thousand perceptions is better ?
Think about it , let the people live with a religion and let them try to achieve their meaning of life as in philosophy everysecond gives new idea about meaning of life you die but never satisfy about in any meaning.
Thanda Thanda Gola Gunda
[This message has been edited by Gola Gunda (edited June 05, 2001).]
Ammar
Apparently not. Do you not see how religion converted an illetrate nation into one of learned, behaved, human people? There are many examples in history.
Ans) Chiragh talay andhera…How ironic. An illiterate man teaching the whole world to be literate. Ammar, Mohammad or any prophets were thinkers PHILOSOPHERS. You don’t need education for that. You just see how the world around you behaves everyday. As for many examples in history I agree but those examples have nothing to do with GOD.
Q)The one problem that arises is that we're left without a norm.. why do we need a norm? well, do u see the amount of disagreements between people of different religions? can u imagine the amount of disagreements between people if everyone of us tried to be our own god?
ans)First of all my dear there is no such thing as NORM. So called Norms are very different for you and I than your own father or mother. What you are actually talking about is the UNIVERSAL TRUTH. Like SUN comes from east and sets towards west. People eat. Sleep feel angry, human nature, animalistic nature and so forth. Our disagreements are unfortunately not over the universal truth it is over man's hallucinations of DIFFERENT GODS and RELIGIONS he has created to gain control over his own fellowmen and other aimals.
Q) Lets accept that there is no God for the sake of discussion. Do you not see how every person would be his own god? God or religion is not there to stop or limit us to a certain belief, rather its there to help us grow, and at the same time prevent a state where everyone's belief would be different(hence creating a lot of trouble!) just because they've seen different things, or been through different experiences.
Call it God/Religion.. ANYTHING. It just defines a norm.. and a norm is needed to hold us all together.
ans) they all do that even now.eeryone knows everything why do you think we have so mnay disagreements? I on the other hand claim tat just by the power of observation one can see all we are trying to achieve is hapiness and peace no matter how many prophets gods or relgion human race creates. As a result we are less toelrant of each other
pagluu
bro, if you genuinly wish to get fulfiling answer to these questions, then i suggest you to get hold of Nahajul-Balagha (english translation: Peak of Eloquance) and have a read.
Khuda hafiz
BRO I own and read Nahjul BALAGHA by ALI in English and in Urdu and in Arabic several times. They are no different than what any great philosopher has said about everything. I agree. That why shias try to put ali before anyone and ASRANIS sect in syria thinks Ali is god...did you know that?
Q)God, as you put it, is not just a concept. It in itself holds many religions(people/nations) together. And I've explained the importance of religion/God in my previous post. Do read it again if u're confused.
ANS) It is as abstract a concept as idea of feeling LOVE. God is a Feeling, you are brainwashed since the day you are born to feel it.
Cos for you ALLAH is feeling, for a HINDU KRISHNA BHAGWAAN, and other avtaars are.
We, humans, are not perfect. But the system we live in, is. Is it not the perfect mixture of good and bad? Do you not see how pain/suffering is an essential part of growing up? Do u think we would be at our current technological level, had God made every one of us immortal, and (your concept of) perfect? I see perfectness in the way this system lets me grow, and yet holds me back. I see perfectness in the way there is happiness, and yet enough sadness/hurt to keep us working for the better. There is ease.. and then there is strife.. to get the best out of us.
There is only one meaning of PERFECT,.it means FAULTLESS. Bad is not PERFECT, it is BAD, you mean to say equilibrium, nothing is at equilibrium it sure does try to go towards it. Mortal making immortals is GOD's imperfection not perfection. I will believe God is not man made only if HIS creation is also mortal.
Let me ask you something, is it possible for any of us to define a system, which encompasses people like us.. people who are different, people from All over the globe, people of All colors, under one banner? I dont think man is capable of it.
Yes and NO, No cos. man always want changes cos. nothing is constant except the change, or we can say nothing changes except the change itself.
Yes, FASHION tends to do the same thing what religion does to people. Fashion is followed like religion cos. it is a concept create by humans. Yet there are people who would be prejudice against fashion too in the same fashion as they would be against religion or no religion, god or no god. Fashion makes people come under one banner. Sooner or later everyone will do that fashion. E.g., most important reason to wear clothes is to protect us from heat, cold and other weathers. Most fashionable household name is TOMMY HILLFIGER. Most people sooner all later will know the name TOMMY Hillfiger even in the remote areas of AFRICAN villages MOST people know what LEVIS Jeans are even in those African prehistoric dwellings. MOST people around the world follow CHRISTIANITY, after that most popular religion to get converted into is ISLAM.
Now I do understand you saying that it is man-made, since u see the imperfections, or the holes in the system. The trouble is, we have never tried to impose one system over all of us. Even in our current world, even when we say that there are 4(or 5) major religions, we are all in effect following our own God, or our will. If we do try imposing one set of (flexible) rules over a large majority of people, we'll understand that such a system is NOT and can NOT be made by humans. Try studying the 'systems' that most religions have defined, and you should understand that its not man's work
No I don't see Holes In the SYSTEM, I say there is no system, Islam in Saudi is practiced differently than in Pakistan or INDIA and quiet differently in Americas and Europe. Same is true for every religion In the world. It is like food, Chinese food is bland when it is cooked in the USA and spicy when cooked in pakistan or india. Just to suit the needs of people unfortunately religions are trimmed and disected and catered to the geograhical needs of the people. IN saudi, Arabs leave Quran on the floor they don’t care cos it is a book yes true also for them tat it came from allah. Indains and Pakistani in their respective countries put quran in a velvet cover. Never to open it again cos it is so holy.
You might think that religion is man-made, to control us humans.. and keep us under one banner. For me to prove that religion does exist, I'll have to go through miracles related with religion which have happened/and are still happening. would u want me to do that?
Miracles, ammar miracles are your mindset, what african zulu tribal person thought when he saw a match stick for the first time? It's A miracle and magic both. What we can't explain becomes miracle. What we can't justify is wrong, and what we don’t want to understand…. Well, you got the point.
LOOK AT SUN:
Every square-yard of it radiates 130,000 HorsePower of energy.The equivalent of 45 eight-cylinder engines.Yet it's only one of a
hundred billion planets on the Milky Way.And if one of them move 2 degrees without GOD's permission, it will mean catastrophe for us all.
LOOK AT EARTH:
Weighing about more than Six Trillion tons,and tilted exactly 23 degrees--just right! Even one degree off, and the seasons as we know them would disappear,and we'd all drown in colossal polar-meltdown.We are a passenger on an "Earth-Ship" that has been travelling faster than the speed of sound for thousands of years,without once breaking down,blowing up,or tumbling out of orbit. Think of the intelligence that put it all together.
The more we know about GOD's Celestial workshop,our concept of him grows and our faith in him increases.
[This message has been edited by TARIQ786USA (edited June 05, 2001).]
I don't care who created what, how it happened opr what WILL happen to us. Guys listen to what Iam saying.
While we are here in this forsaken world. HOw can we live peacefully, withour worrying about other person's religious, cultural, geographical beliefs? How?
Philosopher you have started a rubbish topic regarding the biggest topic of the philosophy where all the philosophy starts
Ok…whatever you are trying to say must be good for you. Guess.
Finally all IAm trying to ask is do you not believe " whatever you think you are you are" and "whatever you are you think" eg..you are a muslim so you think everything in terms of islam correct, but how hasthis belief of yours helped you attain humanity when you believe that other person a non believer is damned to hell, etc, etc?
cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"
Philosopher , I have just one line, the philosophy you are studying that is Greek Philosophy itself had to settled on some religion , for what they made Greek mythology to settle on some thing , if a donkey had been given a mind to think and compare two piles of grass to eat and he starts to analyse which is better before choosing one of them to eat , it will die of hunger. Philosophy is just like that.
C U Ol
Philosopher:
Humbly may I say, you are wasting your time in this thread. No offence at anybody, people here (a considerable chunk of them), are brainwashed to assume the supremacy of a man-made thought called Islam. I should quickly add that they also think Islam is god made and even in that only Islam is god made.
In my view Islam is no way superior (or even inferior) to Hinduism or Christianity or Jainism or even Amish culture. They are all man(or woman) made schools of thought, beliefs and ideas.
You are a person who seem to think beyond the box. You should know one little thing. For many here, thinking within the box is the best they can do. It is interesting to see how limited can we restrict a person's thinking by constant hammering and braishwashing the person with any idea. I really thought human mind is more powerful.
** I humbly, politely, lovingly and sincerely consider them as deprived people who weren't allowed to think (and hence lost their ability to think) of the possibility of non-existence of Allah or other god(s) or even the fact that Allah could have been Shiva or Jesus or Buddha. **
A small advice! Have fun, enjoy life, stop wasting time with braishwashed people here.
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited June 05, 2001).]
Phil:
Here is a sample of what I have said. (This is the tip of the iceberg)
I agree with Kumarakn, most people on this forum are too brain washed and scared to think beyond Islam and rightly so,the punishment of questioning Islam in all muslim countries s death.
In my opinion religion is sort of pollitical movement used to form a group, in order to gain advantage for your group verses other groups. Lots of wars are fought in the name of religion and that has nothing to do with God but everything to do with gaining advantage for your group. Constant call for all muslim to unite is a good example of group forming.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited June 05, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
** I humbly, politely, lovingly and sincerely consider them as deprived people who weren't allowed to think (and hence lost their ability to think) of the possibility of non-existence of Allah or other god(s) or even the fact that Allah could have been Shiva or Jesus or Buddha. **
A small advice! Have fun, enjoy life, stop wasting time with braishwashed people here.
[/quote]
Dude, I find it very interesting that instead of refuting my arguments sensibly, both you and Rani have just decided to give us your "opinion".. which merely goes to show that you are the "brain-washed" and not able to think "out of the box" kind.
If you wanted to give advice you could PM Philosopher. If you want to take out our frustrations regarding muslims, start a new thread, or better yet.. take it to a hindu board.
I understand your frustration over not being able to answer the question with logic. But lets not take it out here. ok? Thanks.
Philosopher, I'll get back to your points shortly.
Rani and Kumar
may be I am the next one...or you, or you, or you????
The reason USA is a super power beause they started something very new,
mohammad became the most influential man on earth cos he started a school of thought which was not only summarizing the importance of monotheism but also giving divine rights to the womens right, but he also forgot that dharopati(if iam using the right person i seem to get confused in dharopati and parvati) was given the blessing to be married to 5 men cos she wished for 5 different qualities of gods.
M0hamad was the only prophet after hinduism who has given so many rights to women.
This conversation is NOT about GOD, but about the world we live in.
Just like mosses, jesus, mohammad in montheistic religions,
krishna, buddah, incans, and red indians, ancient egyptian they all tried ideology to not only please the then people of their worlds but also to control them.
It takes little things in our lives to make us happy or miserable.
I dont have to quote socrates, carl jeung, mrx, darwin, frued, lenon, hitler, moaamd, ali, abubakar, uma usman, krishna, subramanian, mosses, eesa, ghalib, hasrat mohani, sir syed, nehru, gandi.
No i dont have to, because all these people played people to gain control of the world.
Islam says Quran should be in ARABIC not to be read in translations or interpretation why?
cos it will make his language like ENGLISH, which is now a household language for every age. Muslims failed to realize it. Cos muslims are so self engrossed in their owneship of god. All the older religion sees this young child-religion and smiles back cos the toy this religion has is nothing new for them. They are areday comtrolling the whole world with the same toy. Hindus have so much money in their temples in banglore, bombay and wherever they are yet in india people are suffering and dying, where is krishna's preaching?
dalli llama is the same way, yet his people suffer in tibet for light and shelter, christians are being prosecuted, rabbisare so rich but they couldnt prevent the genocide,
We collect worldly riches in the name of religion. All the religions(not just islam) do it every hour. The followers want to believe in miracles but they forget they are the miracles. Each day we play GOD shunning and debasing and abating someone.
My point is we have 24 hours in a day,
if we sleep 8 of it then we are left with 16.
if we work atleast 8 of it then we have 8
then wy not spend that in KINDNESS.
my day is made everyday when i make sure someone who comes to me i touch their heart.
I claim my self a prophet cos I am able to do it everyday.
I know we all have problmes we invited them cos we were lonely or bored, no other reason, no matter how impossible it seems to rid those problems. That doesnot mean we should make other peoples day bad.
OUr hunger for showing others, our insecurity for lack of achievements, makes us forget our basic needs of life.what are they i remind you all once more
ALL of us WANT to be HAPPY simply HAPPY.
ALL of us want a good night sleep
all of us want a good friend
all of us want to avoid confrontations
all of us want others to believe in us
all of us want to be heard
if we are quiet it is our way to attract others
if we are loud and obnoxious that another way to attract.
IN all honesty when hard times comes to us we all forget the religion, the family, the culture, and just concentrate on ourselves.
I see it this way, if some on has to go to use the toilet for number 2, they dont care how much it stinks they do it. dont they?
All the flag holder of religions are the same when faced with turmoil religionand faith is out the door destruction thus becomes the faith.
Whether on a small scale or big. Evry one and I KNOW everyone of us acts in a similar manner sooner or later.
cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"
Peaceland wrote
*both you and Rani have just decided to give us your "opinion".. which merely goes to show that you are the "brain-washed" and not able to think "out of the box" kind. *
How does giving an opinion makes one brain washed..? Not having a opinion other than the one u are taught since childhood is sign of brain washed and not able to think out of box u were born in.
Questioning a theory is not bashing, In a democratic setup everbody is encouraged to think. Instead of putting people down for thinking and expressing themselves, u should also learn to think.
opinions without any logic to back them up... thats what u're giving.
This thread started with the question what is the need od God has ended with the starters conclusion that the Muslims think the God is their property , philosopher were you serious with the topic , if you are not serious with the topic you should not have even started it , you have started offending while you have gathered some replies , the follower of any God has enough rules for themselves that they don't stop celebrating holies , diwalis etc. and they are happy with it , and who says the pleasure is the best , maybe your pleasure is somebody's sorrow , smile in your face make somebody scared to death and your smile may make somebody encouraged to survive his pain , was your smile is a good one or the bad one,what are you going to do ???
[This message has been edited by Logic Bomb (edited June 06, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by ammarr:
opinions without any logic to back them up... thats what u're giving.
[/quote]
Nope i am not..religion is a political movement, concept of believers or non-believers has very little to do with God. This is purely a group forming mechanism. Religious wars are good examples of one organized religious group fighting another of a different religion...(many times aganist people of the same ethnicity) to gain control over the resources for their group.
Raani is very right, so was kumar when he wrote everything about it.
Yes Iam serious in srting the question, yes not only muslims but all the religions in th world believe that GOD is ther commodity, so they can act like one too.
No I have tried to keep it very simple, without asking people to go into GOD and HIS existance explanations and evolutions.
My happiness is others sorrow only If they let it become their sorrow. My smiling makes othes sad then they are insecure and thats my point my dear...spread happiness not hatred like religion does, spread freedom of spirit not obligations and complications of ropes of religions. spread wings of open mindedness not brainwashing of religious beliefs which have obviously brought destructions after destructions to mankind.
Ask yourself why things bother you?
Ask yourself why do you feel anger?
Ask yourself why do you need people in your life who put you down instead of lifting you up?
And then ask yourself HOW insecure you are?
Take onestep at a time, one single small step, accept changes around you, Open your mind to the utmost extremes and then say I still don't know anything.I am still closed minded brainwashed person.
May be raani and kumar are right...and be be you all are right who holds the flags of gods in your hands. But remember all we want is to be happy.
Yahii ka ha thha meree aankh dekh saktee hai
to mujh pay toot perraa sara sheher na beena
I only said I could see, ...the whole blinded city got onto me
cogito ergo sum... "I think therefore I am..." & "I am therefore I think"
Philosopher, Stay on one point please. You start off by asking
Why should there be GOD?
Why can't we just believe in ourselves?
<
Has this question been answered? I've tried my best to, but u're beating the same argument over and over. If your question has been answered, then say so, and ask ur next question. Dont mix everything up.
Also, I have a question for you too.
How does religion or God stop u from spreading happiness among people? Are you trying to imply that religion is the real root of the problems we have these days? Well, if thats what you are saying, then I find that absurd. Religions, if anything, preach 'peace', 'happiness', and positive attitude towards others. Call the people corrupt if you have to, but I fail to see how religion could be the problem.
Mr Philosopher
very interesting. you started a thread "GOD-- is IT for real?" and then in some replies you deny that you are not discussing if there really is GOD. a confused man. if you really want to know, sincerely, whether a GOD exists or not then as others suggested look at the very existence of micro-organisms, and the look at other creatures, how the develop. look at the universe. you and other atheists think that all of it existed randomly?
how could such an excellent design of human body come into existence randomly? how can two sex evolve? why not 3,4,5 or more sexes?
why are you born? how did you come into being? what is life? even if you collect all the chemicals which a human body is comprised of you can't give it life... why?
if GOD is perfect, why HIS creations are not perfect? everything is perfect, its all upto you how you see it. everything in human mind needs some reference... why? how to get ABSOLUTE reference?
Mr Kumar, Rani and others who are from different religions would think of Muslims in a box, while Muslims would think of non-muslims in a box who can't realize Islam as GOD's religion and Quran as God's book....... again, matter of reference.
Mr Philosopher and accomplices.... after you die, you will know it all what happens if you not accept very existence of GOD and Mohammed PBUH as HIS messenger.... this is what I've been told to beleive, but I do have my own mind and looking at the design of universe, and amoeba (unicellular organisms) I do beleive in GOD.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
[quote]
Originally posted by ammarr:
**Philosopher, Stay on one point please. You start off by asking
Why should there be GOD?
Why can't we just believe in ourselves?
<
Has this question been answered? I've tried my best to, but u're beating the same argument over and over. If your question has been answered, then say so, and ask ur next question. Dont mix everything up.
Also, I have a question for you too.
How does religion or God stop u from spreading happiness among people? Are you trying to imply that religion is the real root of the problems we have these days? Well, if thats what you are saying, then I find that absurd. Religions, if anything, preach 'peace', 'happiness', and positive attitude towards others. Call the people corrupt if you have to, but I fail to see how religion could be the problem.**
[/quote]
agree with Ammar!
if some people abuse religion, it doesn't make religion bad, its the person's fault... don't stereotype by following media and their propaganda.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
Philosopher I think , by just studying Greek philosophy you do not become a perfect philosopher , your signature claiming itself to be cogito ego sum is not the real cogito ego sum said by Descartes , it has the 'milawat' of Sartre , Jean-Paul's statement about existentialism . You should first see your mistakes carefully , if you can't see your own mistakes , you definitely cannot understand right replies of others , have mind which could understand other's arguments properly otherwise the blind will call the same elephant some time like a snake when touch the trunk , or will call the same elephant like the tree trunk when touches the elephant's leg.
[This message has been edited by Inquilab (edited June 06, 2001).]