It makes no sense at all, why would God create the universe with the billions of galaxies with 100s of trillions of stars and planets in them to put his creation on the most insignificant place in the universe to then send them to heaven and hell for being human. In other words, isn’t our existence too insignificant for God to care…especially for someone who has universes to run?
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
^ If there is a God, scale would be least of His worries.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
Hmmm. Are we really that insignificant if the various natural systems that Allah has created play a role in our survival? We're not wholly isolated from all of them. Besides, it is said that these inanimate objects such as the sun, the moon, the planets and galaxies which you hold in awe also worship Allah. But human beings are more "significant" than them...or are bestowed with the title "Ashraful Makhlooqat" (The Best of Creation) because unlike the galaxies and animals and even the angels, we have the power of free will. We struggle and strive against our nafs to do what is good and righteous while the angels are simply programmed to do good. And anything that comes with greater struggle has more value or significance. The more labor that goes into a something, the greater the value and cost. Apart from giving us free will, Allah has bestowed us with the intellect to recognize and know Him through the His creation of the Heavens and the Earth. You're talking about the billions of galaxies and all that is out there that we cannot see, but sometimes I think that Allah even created the diversity in animals ...so that us human beings who have been endowed with intellect can marvel at His creation, so that we don't get bored of only our own existence, so that we learn lessons from their creation about our own weaknesses and strengths. No, we are anything but insignificant.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
^^^ 1) Please explain how we have free will if everything about our existence is predetermined (b/c that would make any kind of prayers useless)? 2) If God can create everything why is God so impressed with creation of humans (surely we have self interest in thinking we are important)?
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
^ If there is a God, scale would be least of His worries.
True, but we are talking about in human context & why we think we are so important. Scale provides us context of importance...
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
True, but we are talking about in human context & why we think we are so important. Scale provides us context of importance...
I am a bit confused. In OP you say "isn't our existence too insignificant for God to care." and now it is about our own importance in our own eyes.
Anyways, if we could communicate, some bacteria living inside your guts would say they are quite important.
Again, I don't think God would care much about physical scale of his creations. Remember that in theory, the total amount of actual 'matter' in ALL of the universe was once packed into a volume of a golf ball (some say size was even 0). Effectively, importance of something (for God) is not measured in terms of its physical size.
If God exists, my analogy is like this. God is a computer programmer and he created a computer game with all of us inside it, and we have to follow some laws (physical laws) except that we are given free will within those laws. Everything we perceive is generated by that 'software' and we would be judged based on how we behave (considering divine laws) in the game and used for another more serious software (heaven) if we do well or purged like a computer virus (hell) if we don't. In this scenario, it is perfectly understandable that we are important enough for God to care and it didn't take much effort from God to create seemingly infinite galaxies around our little earth. We remain central characters of the game.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
True, but we are talking about in human context & why we think we are so important. Scale provides us context of importance...
aqal barri k bhens?
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
Religion isn't based on logic, its based on belief and faith. Hence why religion should completely be a matter of spirituality, and nothing else.
When prople start bringing science and whatnot into religion, its completely wrong. There is no logic in religion, its all faith and belief.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
It is amazing how humans are confident of having knowledge of a thing they no nothing about. Before we ask does God exist, we must be able to answer what is the nature of "existence"? Therefore, what do you and I mean when we say "I exist!".
How do we know we exist? We have only 5 senses to determine and synthesize "our world"...that is, if we are lucky! If I was blind, deaf, dumb, how would I know I exist? How would I have a sense of time and my own aging in that case? By the same token, for a man who has all these senses could still not claim to perceive all of the objective truths/reality "out there". What if we had 12 more perceptive faculties on average? Our idea of reality would be very different. So essentially, my point is, the question of God's existence is an ancient philosophical one, and an important one but to understand the question we must also ask the other relevant questions as well.
I am not sure why you claim our existence is too insignificant. It is surely based on a contextual mental comparison you have. For instance, A glass of water is insignificant when compared to all the oceans on Earth. But the same glass of water is most significant when we are thirsty in the middle of the sea! The sea water suddenly becomes insignificant and utterly useless compared to the drinkable glass of water.
God is not a computer, nor a human being. He does not get tired; He doesn't run into scheduling conflicts (or works on time share); He doesn't have limited sight; He doesn't need sleep or rest. The idea of Him being "burdened" by running too many things at the same time is just a fallacy. He is not a man; He is God. We often make the mistake of understanding God through our own humanly limitations. He has no gender. He created things with gender in plants, animals, human beings and other creatures. I think it is critical to ask the question Who is God, or What is God really?
It is not a blasphemous question. Abhraham (peace be upon him) asked it like every human being intuitively does. He reasoned, and pondered on the nature of God. There is a story God related in the Quran about how he looked at the moon for God, then the sun, and other things....So it is natural to ask those questions, but one must properly guide oneself to the answer. Because along the way the person will usually realize s/he has many absurd assumptions in his mental world view of things and ideas.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
Religion isn't based on logic, its based on belief and faith. Hence why religion should completely be a matter of spirituality, and nothing else.
When prople start bringing science and whatnot into religion, its completely wrong. There is no logic in religion, its all faith and belief.
That is an incorrect view based on absolutely no knowledge of religions. The true religion of God has faith and belief as an important component one that rests upon knowledge and testifiable sciences. False religions will have to compete with scientific facts.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
Peace Shamraz Khan
You have one thing right … The world … The Earth is insignificant compared to the rest of the universe … But it becomes significant because of us … Humans are creatures of significance … Our acts of killing are more significant than an animal that kills another animal … Our acts of good are more significant than the good acts of the angels …
In fact … If you understand the inner meanings of humanity you will realise that Allah (SWT) has placed inside each of us “our own cosmos” … We are celestial beings … Our imaginations and conceptual constructs can reach further than what we can see … And what we can see is the physical universe … All this becomes contained in our universes in which each of us are at the centre …
We are supposed to be placed here … To be the representatives of God … Here in this world … For each other, for the animals, for the unseen creatures and for the ecology. The Earth is a low place … As stated in our scriptures and you have confirmed it … We say all pain in this world is insignificant compared to the Hereafter and all gains in this world are insignificant compared to the gains in the Hereafter …
But it how can this be hard to conceive logically?
Do we not struggle in the gym to become stronger, do we not battle with past papers to ace exams, do we not restrict our freedoms to be safe? Follow the rules to ensure harmony?
So that is why we tarry on this lesser world to pass and avoid failure in the greater world … We can view this life like a primer … A test … A filtering conduit for the eternal life.
We are told that a drop of human Muslim blood is more precious to Allah (SWT) than the holy cities …
Drop (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There are about 20 drops in 1 ml, 1000 ml in one litre, 5 litres of blood in average body … That is about 100, 000 times the worth of (Mecca, Madinah, Jerusalem) = 1 believer’s blood. If you want to put it in childish terms like that …
It it is good to view ourselves as vulnerable, small, insignificant … But we need to acknowledge the clear truth also … We are so unique on this planet different from any other life form.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
It makes no sense at all, why would God create the universe with the billions of galaxies with 100s of trillions of stars and planets in them to put his creation on the most insignificant place in the universe to then send them to heaven and hell for being human. In other words, isn't our existence too insignificant for God to care...especially for someone who has universes to run?
What else is in the universe to run except humans.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
The opening post of this thread does make you think. Humans in some shape and form are in existence for 3 million years or so, in a universe that is about 14 billion years old. As Cosmos (the show) puts it, if we squeeze the whole time line in one year, then we were born probably on new years eve. Why is that God waited so long to bring us into existence if the whole purpose was to test us?
The question is not the reflection of my weak faith, but just one out of many queries that pop into my brain, because God has given me the ability to think and rationalize.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
If allah had put us on earth back then, it was so hot, then we would complain, “why could allah not wait.”
BTW he rolled out the design, then he did not break just because he could. Every thing followed.
Subhan allah
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
It makes no sense at all, why would God create the universe with the billions of galaxies with 100s of trillions of stars and planets in them to put his creation on the most insignificant place in the universe to then send them to heaven and hell for being human. In other words, isn't our existence too insignificant for God to care...especially for someone who has universes to run?
Name one thing in the universe other them human and jin, who have a free will/choice.
Who has been given such a broad spectrum or thinking.
what other thing needed to be talked to? crows?? grizzly bears ? clouds ?
mountains ? stars ?
Ok... I need to watch pbs nature now.... :D
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
The opening post of this thread does make you think. Humans in some shape and form are in existence for 3 million years or so, in a universe that is about 14 billion years old. As Cosmos (the show) puts it, if we squeeze the whole time line in one year, then we were born probably on new years eve. Why is that God waited so long to bring us into existence if the whole purpose was to test us?
The question is not the reflection of my weak faith, but just one out of many queries that pop into my brain, because God has given me the ability to think and rationalize.
Peace brother TLK
At least 3 million is comparable to 14 billion ... It is our iman that the souls in our bodies are very ancient ... Just like we can position ourselves in the vastness of His Creation we can likewise position ourselves in the vastness of the time span of Created existence. Just as we can conclude our insignificance - we can also conclude as Monk hinted on the greatness of our purpose. The stars guide us ... imagine that distant bodies are set in motion to adorn the sky that WE see to guide US in navigation and look beautiful for US ... imagine that the Earth is formed and cooled and water placed herein for US ... the magnetic field put here for US .... Just as a host prepares his home for his guest hours before they arrive and they may only visit for 20 mins, we can be making preparations for days ... does that show the insignificance or the can it show another angle?
When we read Surah Rahman ... Can we not establish this understanding? All of a sudden we can see that this billion year process can be viewed as a red carpet for us to walk on ... how long would it have taken to make the red carpet, procure it, lay it down and have the guards and TV crew called compared to how much time it takes for us to walk on it? Does the fact that kiswa takes a year to make using precious materials reflect its own importance or the importance that we give to the Ka'ba? Sometimes the longer the investment and planning for an event - the greater that event can be viewed.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
[quote] If God exists, my analogy is like this. God is a computer programmer and he created a computer game with all of us inside it, and we have to follow some laws (physical laws) except that we are given free will within those laws. Everything we perceive is generated by that 'software' and we would be judged based on how we behave (considering divine laws) in the game and used for another more serious software (heaven) if we do well or purged like a computer virus (hell) if we don't. In this scenario, it is perfectly understandable that we are important enough for God to care and it didn't take much effort from God to create seemingly infinite galaxies around our little earth. We remain central characters of the game.
We remain central characters of game b/c we think we are important (self preservation?)...btw, if software creator created flawed system how can system be blamed, but not the system creator?
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
Name one thing in the universe other them human and jin, who have a free will/choice. Who has been given such a broad spectrum or thinking.
Sorry, but religions often say contradictory things & free will is one of them. How can you have free will if God preset everything for you (preordained destiny)? You cannot have both.
As for Jins, their existence is limited to Islamic theology. There is no actual proof of their existence.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
Religions don't say contradictory things, it our limited knowledge and limited approach to look at things that make it contradictory.
I think Free will as we consider it according to modern standards is different from free will mentioned in religion. Its just like a flow chart, if a person A does this then he will get this and if he doesn't do that he will face these circumstances. The concept of 'Tawakkul' in Islam first asks for action and then hope in God that there will be positive consequences.
Re: God, heaven, hell and logic?
The opening post of this thread does make you think. Humans in some shape and form are in existence for 3 million years or so, in a universe that is about 14 billion years old. As Cosmos (the show) puts it, if we squeeze the whole time line in one year, then we were born probably on new years eve. Why is that God waited so long to bring us into existence if the whole purpose was to test us?
The question is not the reflection of my weak faith, but just one out of many queries that pop into my brain, because God has given me the ability to think and rationalize.
If God is all powerful, he could have created everything (including your memories) yesterday and make it look like they were created 14 billion years ago.