Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
OMG you can write dude.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
The differences between people can only be settled through proper understanding of the quran itself not by make beliefs that people hold independent of the quranic teachings.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
mr mughal brevity is not your strong point it seems..
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
You know very well I don’t believe in Pantheism or plurality in Deity … And you can’t believe that either if Ajuwanda is exactly like The God … In which case you are saying that they are the same … In which case you must take back the previous notion about the penguin and unicorn because that is not exactly like The God concept that I believe in … Also, Ajuwanda has a belief about no torture and franships … the God concept I understand does not suggest “God believes” … this terminology is reserved for humans … However, God does indeed require us to not torture one another and wants us to make franships … (
you are truly queer queer)
And if you are talking about punishment and reward then such a concept of there being no punishment is odd … When people in the world do crimes they are fined, locked up and even torture sometimes, but the same people expecting this not to be done by Deity is hypocritical … See if they have only reward and no punishment if society will remain in check or will it disintegrate … Yet such inanity is being asked from God … Ajuwanda is not a wise concept for God if that is the case. It also suggests the Ajuwanda concept for God makes it incapable of giving justice and retribution.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
Mughal1 ... Why are you copy pasting such lengthy material? ... Just link it to your site bro ... No one reads it here and it breaks the conversation flow.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
How about Guruvayurappa? He has all the solutions.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
mr mughal brevity is not your strong point it seems..
Dear bitter, brevity is fine where others know what one is talking about and agree over the basics but disagree only over a minor detail.
When thinkings are so muddled up as they are that all of us are confused about everything when some one thinks he has found a way to deal with all this chaos and confusion, it has to be a complete statement to explain the whole thing involved so that then people could see the actual thing and then they can compare it to what they know to see which is clear and beneficial so that they give up wrong ideas and take on better ideas and join in. It is easier to see things if you go by ideology against ideology, system against system, structure against structure, procedure against procedure, practice against practice be it about societies, politics, cultures, economics etc etc.
If Allah thought that he needed to reveal a book the size of the quran to help people think then this is only one chapter of it. If we have no time for it then we should not say anything about things we have no idea about or we are not interested in. It is wrong mindset, attitude and behaviour that I just poke my nose anywhere where it does not belong just for steering up trouble.
If we want to discuss islam then we have to discuss the quran just like discussing bible for talking about christianity etc. We cannot argue for or against islam without involving the quran in there.
We who claim to be muslims have ruined reputation of the quran by quoting a verse and then bending it according to our own wishful make beliefs and saying there you are I have proved I am right. This suits fine to people in position of power who are hell bent on ruining lives of people in the name of scriptures throughout the world but it does not work that way and it shouldn't for anyone who is really interested in knowing the truth about something for sake of benefit of it all to humanity. Each and every verse first has to be shown that it makes sense in its own rightful place and then we can use it as a reference after knowing its meanings in context.
One has to see how many threads are filled with nonsense debates about issues relating islam, hardly any of them is fully settled and all are confused and give up debate wihtout reaching anywhere worthwhile turning point. It is because they are using the quran the way they should not. A verse quotation is fine if you already know what the quran means in its own context but if you quote a verse randomly to a people who are already confused you are not doing the right thing.
Muslims need to insist that their mullahs read to them the quran properly chapter by chapter clarifying its proper context. Very soon you will find they are lost because they never thought about it. Despite children spending their life time with mullahs in their darul alooms when they come out of there, what do they know of the quran? Not much other than what they were taught and the way they were taught. Their critical faculty is not develop to understand the quran the way it ought to be understood.
This is why whether people go to madrassas or stay home, it changes nothing at all. How did the prophet manage to turn the community around within 23 years using the quran alone as his imaam and guide? It is 1400 years since muslims got lost and after such length of time they still haven't found the way back to good human society. Something must be seriously wrong with us that we have been so unsuccessful and a very bad failure that on the one hand the whole world is laughing at us and on the other we and the rest of the world are going through needless pain and suffering. So we must rethink our position and approach things in a different way than we have been for so long. If fruits of our beliefs and actions have not delivered what we thought we will get by going about thing the way we went then obviously we are not on the right road. We have left quran alone and have created our own islams which are leading us to hell that we see all around us.
But all I can do is share my thoughts as I think the rest is up to rest of brethren to think about and come up with their own solutions. If we do not unite on some basic beneficial goal and guidelines then we are going to go our own separate ways and the results are going to be worse and worse day by day.
It is entirely up to ourselves to make our world go the way we want it to go. For better or for worse we are all in this boat together. We float or drown together regardless we sit tight together or separately.
regards and all the best.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
I have studied it very objectively! What belief requires is deference, and I refuse to do that. That means suspension of rationality. My position is very stable. It’s a position that says you have to show me evidence, and this is something that no religion can. Evidence isn’t circular argument. You can’t use your religious text to verify your religious text. I would submit to you, if you looked at things a bit more objectively you would see it’s all superstition.
Rules have nothing to do with religion. Most of the basic laws we live with predate any of the contemporary religions.
I am not complaining about the world at all. I’m saying the world is moving in the right direction. We had a world ruled by religion, it was called the Dark Ages in Europe. We have countries ruled by religion, Saudi Arabia. Are you telling me the Saudis aren’t religious? What about the Taliban, are they religious? What about Iran, religious? All three follow the same prophet, the same god, the same book, but aren’t very similar! Taliban and Saudis are alike, but very different from Persians. How can that be? How can eternal truths be misinterpreted?
I have read your posts very thoroughly. You’re an intelligent person, and a very good sport, indeed. However, your arguments are all circular. There is simply no evidence for the existence for any deity.
I was speaking to someone the other day about the rape and killing of that young girl in India. The lady I was speaking to extols the virtues of krishna and praises krishna for everything she has. She’s a rather wealthy lady. I thought to myself, I wonder how many gods that young girl and her fiance must have called out to. I wonder who it was she prayed to. She was brutally raped in a bus, and left to die. No god came to her aid. What kind of deity allows something like that to happen?
I watched a video a few months back where they were interviewing a little boy, 5 years old, in Pakistan. He works in a car repair shop. He said he prays that his father uses the money he gets every day to feed him and his siblings. His father is a drug abuser. I have a 4 year old son, it broke my hear to see this. Why doesn’t the deity he prays to help him?
Why is it that gods seem to answer the prayers of the middle classes or the rich. Are the poor not praying enough? Why do gods hate poor people?
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
Peace kprasad
Are you really open to the idea of Deity? Not "a" deity ... That should be ruled out from the get go ... Deity is in a unique class of its own ... In the class of Deity exists only One ... therefore Deity must be preceded by the definite article "The" ... And here is the reason why ...
If there are more than One God then they would war with one another ... This is the conclusion that the Greeks came to in their pantheon ... By having more than One God neither would be supreme ... Your concept of God must start through a process of understanding correctly the requirements that classify appropriateness for Deity.
I am not asking you to believe in something we can see ... whereas a wizard - by definition is a human being or sentient creature who either through learning or endowment of birth has the ability to do magic. There is no further requirement - I am able to see wizards - in which my requirement for proof of a wizard is to be able to see one ... I am not able to see God - that is an axiom - and therefore I can't offer you nor should you require seeing God as proof. It means you are not open to the idea of God - if your idea of God is not as per my concept ... then we are not even assessing like for like.
Okay ... so let's subject the Harry Potter books to the same criteria and compare them to the Qur'an ... if you are truthful you can follow this discussion closely with me ...
First ... The Holy Qur'an opens with the chapter The Opening - It summarises the whole Book in this chapter ... It begins - by invoking the Name of God, Provides the Attributes in glorification of God and then proceeds to a recognition of God in His worthiness to be worshipped and His power for us to seek help from Him and He is able to deliver it. Then a supplication follows for guidance. Less than 10 verses ... When read the pattern and rhythm is precise.
The very beginning of the next chapter ... Alif Laam Meem ... That (this) is the Book in which there is no doubt - a guidance for those who are God Conscious ...
The very beginning answers the opening chapter's supplication for guidance and it states also in the very beginning that "the Book will guide those who are open to the idea of God" ... It sets the philosophical conditions at the start and demonstrates its perfection ... again all this with beautiful utterance and precise rhythm ...
Bring the first part of Harry Potter for us to analyse please ...
Brother psyah,
I find this somewhat amusing. You're attributing all the qualities of humans to (D)deities! Jealousy, rage, war. It just underscores that a multitude or a single display all the shortcomings humans have, because they are made in our image!
Have you searched for a wizard? How do you know a wizard would let himself be known to you? How would you know if you saw a wizard? Your entire argument rests on the fact that you would know a wizard if you saw one. Harry Potter says, you won't recognize one as a wizard. That negates your whole premise. It says so, in the Potter books!
The Harry Potter books open with what has transpired already and tells us about an evil. It begins by invoking the names of Wizards and tells us the good ones from the bad. It tells of the wizards that have come before us and tells us of a looming evil. Are you open to the idea of Wizards or not?
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
I have studied it very objectively! What belief requires is deference, and I refuse to do that. That means suspension of rationality. My position is very stable. It's a position that says you have to show me evidence, and this is something that no religion can. Evidence isn't circular argument. You can't use your religious text to verify your religious text. I would submit to you, if you looked at things a bit more objectively you would see it's all superstition.
Rules have nothing to do with religion. Most of the basic laws we live with predate any of the contemporary religions.
I am not complaining about the world at all. I'm saying the world is moving in the right direction. We had a world ruled by religion, it was called the Dark Ages in Europe. We have countries ruled by religion, Saudi Arabia. Are you telling me the Saudis aren't religious? What about the Taliban, are they religious? What about Iran, religious? All three follow the same prophet, the same god, the same book, but aren't very similar! Taliban and Saudis are alike, but very different from Persians. How can that be? How can eternal truths be misinterpreted?
I have read your posts very thoroughly. You're an intelligent person, and a very good sport, indeed. However, your arguments are all circular. There is simply no evidence for the existence for any deity.
I was speaking to someone the other day about the rape and killing of that young girl in India. The lady I was speaking to extols the virtues of krishna and praises krishna for everything she has. She's a rather wealthy lady. I thought to myself, I wonder how many gods that young girl and her fiance must have called out to. I wonder who it was she prayed to. She was brutally raped in a bus, and left to die. No god came to her aid. What kind of deity allows something like that to happen?
I watched a video a few months back where they were interviewing a little boy, 5 years old, in Pakistan. He works in a car repair shop. He said he prays that his father uses the money he gets every day to feed him and his siblings. His father is a drug abuser. I have a 4 year old son, it broke my hear to see this. Why doesn't the deity he prays to help him?
Why is it that gods seem to answer the prayers of the middle classes or the rich. Are the poor not praying enough? Why do gods hate poor people?
I haven't read the whole thing because it is too long but;
The poor are usually the most religious but God never seems to help them
Quran is not proof of God or indeed proof of anything.
The Quran is not all you need for a peaceful life, in fact a lot of the Quran is anything but peaceful.
God doesn't need your prayers but he put you on the Earth to pray to him , what? That is what you call a paradox. That makes no sense.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
Brother kprasad, it seems to me that I need to explain things in a bit more detail for you to help you understand things from my point of view.
I will first address the problem you have with understanding of evidence and proof.
Before a court could decide any cases, it has to define what constitutes a proof for what kind of claim so that when its required proof becomes established the case is decided in favour of the claimant.
Not all proofs or evidences are same in their strength. For example, proof of a purchase is receipt of the merchant you receive from the dealer. If two people dispute the ownership of a thing then the one who can provide the proof of ownership of the thing will be accepted as the owner of the thing.
In a case if court decides you only need statements of two witnesses then that will constitute a proof.
In case of murder you not only need to prove murder but motive and the way the murder was committed, So any witness and any other evidence will be required for that purpose etc etc.
The question for us to decide is, what will constitute as a proof in case of God? Proof is not self evident fact so that has to be ruled out. Because self evident fact is self evident in the way that it is self evident. For example, I can see sun but I cannot touch it and for same reason I cannot smell it or taste it. Therefore sun is self evident in certain ways and not in certain other ways. However, existence of sun could be proven in the sense it is not self evident ie we can use other ideas to discover other aspects of sun that are not directly verifiable for us.
There are things in the universe that we can only see but not touch etc etc. That tells us that not all is directly verifiable for us even in the existing universe that we can see.
The brain needs senses to verify things and before it can verify anything with senses it needs to learn how to use them. In fact brain needs to learn how to use itself. So before brain can verify anything it has to verify itself ie I think therefore I am. So use of all things needs a lot of learning, training and practice so that it makes less and less mistakes and errors so that its works and judgements are more and more right than wrong.
This being the case with our own very selves how can we say that science is reliable more than a testimony because at the end of the day it is all human work?
Let us compare scientific method with testimony method and see if both rely on same thing or not.
We observe things and after understanding them get at some result. For example how did we come to know the universe is expanding? The answer is by observing universe over a period of time we figured it is expanding.
How do we know what the quran says is right? We use exactly same idea, we observe the real world over a period of time about things the quran talks about and we find that what it says is exactly right and therefore draw the conclusion that what we cannot observe directly is also true because we have nothing against it to prove it wrong.
The question is, what does the quran talk about? It talks about each and everything we can think about because it talks about humanity and its needs and wants and how it should fulfil them to be in peace and progress and be prosperous. On the other hand it tells us you cannot be in peace if you lie, steal, kill each other, rob each other etc etc. In short what the quran talks about is inn the quran read and find out then observe what happens when we do things it stops us from and what happens if we do not do what it tells us to do. The results become clear like day light.
This shows that scientific method can be used in either case. Because at the base of all this is observation and drawing conclusions. Be it a cell of biological organism or social system and structure or set up of economic nature.
The quran tells us your goal of life should be living in peace and exploring the universe for the benefit of humanity ie managing people and resources properly. If you do not do that then you will suffer the consequences and we are suffering consequences for ignoring advice of Allah.
Coming to your objection about suffering in the world, this is called growing pain ie the quicker we learn to live properly the sooner these will disappear. The more time we take to learn things the more we will suffer. It is because God has given us all we need eg things and guidance so if we learn things and behave the way we are told then we will solve our problems. All we need is grow up and the growing pains will stop. In my very first post I have explained only and only these points.
Let me try and explain to you this as well.
Let say there are ten people living in the same house. Do they know anything about the house? It is because the house could be dangerous and they should not be living in it. However they don’t care to know this, now if they die because of their deliberate ignorance of finding out then whose fault it is? If some know and they try to tell others but they do not listen then whose fault it is?
In the quran people are told everything they need to know and if they will learn it and do what needs to be done to live in this universe the way it should be done then life will keep on flourishing.
Were people not dying due to earth quakes and are they still not? Do we not have early warning systems like smoke alarms that save lives. Can you see what I am getting at? God did not create man to be a cry baby. Please read my first 2 proper posts with a bit of thinking because they explain away all you are confused about.
Man is created to become a mini god in this universe. He is not a slave of this universe but a master of this universe. Once he becomes as such only and only then he will see glory of God by doing a lot of thinking and creativity like God himself. Man has found this universe the way it is and he is created with potential to change it the way he wants it to be. This is how by eliminating all wrongs in the universe one day he will make universe become consistent with his wishes provided man keeps acting the way God told him.
Please start grabbing the ideas I am explaining rather than keep rushing to religious nonsense. As I said before, it is a huge mistake to take the quran as a religious holy book. That is insult to God and humanity both.
Allah is not looking for false praise from chained slaves. Allah is looking forward to a day when man has learned enough to act like God himself. That is when Allah will be please with what he has created not a preprogrammed robot but a self programming robot. And this self programming robot will also be pleased with what it has done. I mean is it not a huge surprise that one day the man who is just a single cell like a tiny seed of a huge tree grows up to manage the whole of this universe. All this will be ideas and creativity of man himself. This is why it will show man how great creator God himself is to create a thing like a man.
It is all matter of understanding the fact that living things have urge to exert themselves and the only way they can do that is by doing something they are capable of doing. God also created universe to express himself and he needed something to express himself to. That is what man is. Allah has given man dignity in his book and man has to rise to that dignity. The quran is a very strange book if one could understand it properly.
The human world is a closed system. If one human does anything wrong others are supposed to correct him because if they don’t then suffering will keep on increasing till people themselves take actions to put things right so that things are pushed in the right direction so that man could reach his destination quicker.
I hope you think over things and try and understand them. That is the only way forward for all of us otherwise we will keep doing things the wrong way and keep on suffering. God does not help unless people follow his system and its laws. You throw some one in the burning fire he burns. This is why God says don’t do that but we still do that and then blame God.
regards and all the best.
Listen to what iqbal thought about the quran.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
Brother psyah,
I find this somewhat amusing. You're attributing all the qualities of humans to (D)deities! Jealousy, rage, war. It just underscores that a multitude or a single display all the shortcomings humans have, because they are made in our image!
Have you searched for a wizard? How do you know a wizard would let himself be known to you? How would you know if you saw a wizard? Your entire argument rests on the fact that you would know a wizard if you saw one. Harry Potter says, you won't recognize one as a wizard. That negates your whole premise. It says so, in the Potter books!
The Harry Potter books open with what has transpired already and tells us about an evil. It begins by invoking the names of Wizards and tells us the good ones from the bad. It tells of the wizards that have come before us and tells us of a looming evil. Are you open to the idea of Wizards or not?
Peace kprasad
Please quote me whee I have used human qualities to describe God ... Those terms Jealousy, rage and war ... Show me or concede that you have lied or at least you are making assumptions about me based on your inaccurate understandings.
Let me see it was you who were postulating the wizard ... So have I searched for one? No, I don't believe I need to search for a wizard. Well regarding other things at wizards we need to come to an agreement ... You tell me how I can find one and I'll go and search for one.
Please show me where it says I will not recognise one as a wizard and I'll show you how he won the Quiddich prize. That is proof enough for me to tell he is a wizard.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
Peace kprasad
Please quote me whee I have used human qualities to describe God ... Those terms Jealousy, rage and war ... Show me or concede that you have lied or at least you are making assumptions about me based on your inaccurate understandings.
[quote="psyah, post:17, topic:279601"]
Peace kprasad Are you really open to the idea of Deity? Not "a" deity ... That should be ruled out from the get go ... Deity is in a unique class of its own ... In the class of Deity exists only One ... therefore Deity must be preceded by the definite article "The" ... And here is the reason why ...
If there are more than One God then they would war with one another ... This is the conclusion that the Greeks came to in their pantheon ... By having more than One God neither would be supreme ... Your concept of God must start through a process of understanding correctly the requirements that classify appropriateness for Deity.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
Let me see it was you who were postulating the wizard ... So have I searched for one? No, I don't believe I need to search for a wizard. Well regarding other things at wizards we need to come to an agreement ... You tell me how I can find one and I'll go and search for one.
Please show me where it says I will not recognise one as a wizard and I'll show you how he won the Quiddich prize. That is proof enough for me to tell he is a wizard.
[/QUOTE]
How will you find one, unless you search for one? You have to search with an open mind. Have you really read Harry Potter with an open mind? I think you should! All your questions will be answered in a logical manner and within the books you will find all your answers!
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
Mughal1,
Eye witness proof is called circumstantial evidence. It needs to be corroborated. Every professional knows that eye witness proof is very unreliable, unless you have lots of people that witnessed the same event and you have physical evidence. So, simply because two people saw something, doesn’t make it a fact.
But for the sake of argument, lets say that was enough. I trust you, so I will believe what you tell me. Let’s say you have a friend, and I trust him as well and will believe what he tells me. The issue here is, even if my trust of you is transitive, that is I trust you, and you trust your friend, therefore I trust your friend, the issue with believing in a deity, based on that, is that it has to be transitive thousands of times. But, why is that required? If there is an ever present and omnipotent being, why is it that only bronze age people have spoken to it/him/her?
As for the sun, it is not self evident. We can measure it’s radiation. It’s size. We’ve sent probes that have studied it. It can be verified empirically. I don’t need to take the existence of the sun on faith. It’s a matter of fact! Every aspect of the sun is verifiable, and we have verified everything we can think of.
Science is more reliable because it can be reproduced by anyone. That’s the great thing! As you stated, though somewhat differently, every brain is different. We have different experiences. But, we have come to universal truths, the Pythagorean theorem for example. Things that are true regardless of your experiences and prejudices. We then use those universal truths to examine what we’re looking at. Science allows us to rationally and empirically examine things, without our prejudices, and then lets us come to a conclusion. This is not what religion does! If order for me to believe in the prophet hood of Mohamed, I have to believe in the Quran. That is circular logic.
I find this perplexing, the notion that some god has given us everything we need to know. I’ve read the Quran, albeit an English translation. There was nothing in there about biology, immunology, physics, no calculus, not even basic anatomy. What was in there, in regards to biology was dead wrong. Not even close! It was as wrong as the Mahabaratha, the Bible, and Torah! Every bit of attempted science, is wrong! What does that say? How can devine revelation be so wrong?
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
How do you even know there is one God? There may be more than one. What proof do you have that there is only one God and not a consortium of Gods ruling the Universe. Heck there is more proof implying the existence of many Gods that only one God.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
^ pls provide proof for existence of multiple gods
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
Dear brother kprasad sb, whoever has told you circumstantial evidence is eye witness account has no idea what he is talking about or that you have failed very badly to understand what was being explained. Since you do not have any idea what the concept of proof and proving is all about I will have to explain it for you in a bit more detail.
Witness based account is always the strongest or most reliable proof of events. It is because it explains the events the way the person saw them happen. You do not need any further explanation of events because you have the explanation already. What you do is verify the testimony by examining it for contradictions within and with respect to the related evidences as far as they are available.
For example, a witness tells us he saw a man who had a gun and he was running after another man and got close to him and shot him twice in the head and the other person died. Note, that story is already there and no explanation is needed for the events. What the police now need to do when they arrive at the scene of the crime is get statement of the witness and get the forensic team to gather circumstantial evidence. Once they have both then they set witness based evidence against the evidences which they have collected from the crime scene and see if they back each other up. If they back up the witness then testimony is proven valid and if they contradict it then testimony is proven false. Police only needs to make a story when the actual story is missing or when a witness is caught lying and testimony is rejected.
How far a witness can be tested? As far as the independent evidence is available. For example, we will expect to recover the body of the murder victim. We will expect to find murder weapon. We will expect to find fingerprints of the killer on the gun. We will find bullets in the body of the victim. we will expect to find that bullets were fired from the gun that has been recovered by way ballistic tests. It is possible that we will find the whole lot of crime scene evidences that will back up the witness but it is also possible that some links in the chain of evidences remain missing because the murderer managed to get rid of them successfully before the arrival of the police at the scene. Where evidences remain hidden we will have to rely on the testimony of a witness alone. Since witness does not prove false and story he tells proves verifiable true to some degree, the murder will still be proven provided other requirements are also established like motive etc.
It is true that human evidence is not 100% reliable but I have already explained in detail as to why that is the case. When you start from the assumption that witness testimony is unreliable, you make a big mistake. Witness statement is always reliable unless it can be proven otherwise and that is exactly what is tested in court to its very limit to decide a case. If we start with the assumption that witness testimony is unreliable then we can never bring in any case against anyone. The law sets standard for anyone to be changed with an allegation. A person comes to police alleging rape for example will be taken seriously and the person will have to provide needed basic evidence to ensure the accused is charged. Even if there is no other evidence the police will have to talk to accused to see if there could be a case to pursue or not.
So the circumstantial evidence is not eyewitness account of events, it is about clues you find after the events took place and that is why you need to come up with explanation as to how things might have happened. For example, we are walking along a road and see a dead body lying on the road. We have no witness as to what has happened to this person. All we have to go on is clues that we find at the scene. There are a few possibilities eg it could be a case of natural death, murder, suicide or accident etc etc. Here we begin by process of elimination eg we find a gun and gunshot wounds in the head of victim and a note telling us he is committing suicide. This rules out natural death or accidental death. It needs further investigation as a murder or suicide because the murderer could have written the note to make it look like a suicide. Once murder is ruled out suicide death will be accepted.
Here you are questioning motives and plan of God after it is done and dusted. You cannot question anyone’s motive you just establish motive where possible. You murdered some one, now you have done it, all others can say is, you have done the right thing or wrong thing but that depends on what your motive was eg self defence or murder in cold blood.
Why God created universe and us human beings in it was up to God and we were not there to give him our permission. It is like you say to your parents why did you bring me in this world? Such like questioning is not right way of looking at things.
All we can do is look at explanation given by God and if we see that it makes sense then it is to be accepted. We are in no position to fight with our parents or God. If we do, our own life will suffer.
The quran has come to us through generations no doubt but there are very strong evidences or clues that the generations have passed onto us the same quran that was left behind by the prophet. More than that as I have already explained, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the way the quran explains things makes sense then it is what it claims to be. It is because we have nothing against it to prove it false.
Let us suppose the quran is not the word of God, the next problem for us to explain is, why would any human write such a book that all are fighting against and would a human be able to write such a book even today when people like us have not yet attained the necessary information to understand the quran? Then we all know history that arabs were a backward people, so how could they produce a book this complex which people cannot do even today? I mean this book is telling us the universe is a closed loop system with laws so that it keeps within set range always. It is strange that it is free of all nonsense that was prevalent at the time and actually tries to educate people out of it.
That is your mistake that you are telling me that witness testimony is not reliable but then you are telling me testimony of scientists is reliable because a, b and c. On the very same bases the quran proves to be reliable when studied without prejudices as it is. It talks about everything directly or indirectly and if we observe things we will see that whatever it states about humanity proves 100% true. Exactly like science eg closed loop universal system and its laws and human mindsets, attitudes and behaviours etc. It explains what is going on in the human world, what is wrong with it and how it could be put right.
How can you say quran is wrong here or there about this or that when you have not read the quran but just a translation of it. Can you tell me if the person translated the quran was a biologist or a physicist or a phd in chemistry? To properly translate the quran one has to be master of each and every subject matter the quran is discussing. Not only that but he has to be reasonably aware of language and how it ought to work and then know arabic as well.
There are people who think the quran has grammatical errors in it. I ask, do you know which came first, the language or the grammatical rules? Some times we just carry some silly notions and follow them without giving things a good thought. The quran is not a religious holy book for pooja paat but a book that puts forth a way of life that humanity must come to live by before things really open up to it that will lead to huge discoveries yet to unfold.
I want you to think about it, if God had create us fully program robots, why would we need brains that we have? These brains are capable of self programming.
Having been programmed like robots why we would need a book like the quran to guide us? It is because if you already know all then you have no need for learning any more.
If people were not supposed to learn any more or were created incapable of learning they ought to have that kind of brains and no books.
But then why would God create a creature with brain to brainstorm and give him books to learn things from where his brain and senses fail him? What did I say right at the beginning? I said God is a living being. All living things have urge to exert themselves. The only way living things can make their presence felt is by way of doing something. It is called creativity. Since urge for exertion is useless unless there is someone out there that appreciate it. If you do something that you take pride in as job well done, you want others to comment. Since God was all alone he exerted himself through creativity of this universe and he is very proud of his creativity He has created man not as a slave but as a friend and a partner by giving him the power of brain and senses as well as a little help through revelation to give him some hints to the goal.
Man is although created from a tiny cell but the potential placed in that cell will take time to unfold. When man has developed independently as a creator in his own right then man will appreciate his own creativity and when he does that he will also appreciate creativity of his creator. That is how God and man both will be pleased with each other.
You will really need to study the quran as I explain to really appreciate what it is all about. Don’t give me muslim excuse that one mullah says one thing and another another thing. Mullahs are not and were never true interpreters or presenters of the quran, they in fact misinterpreted the quran and misrepresented it always. This is why the whole world is divided and fighting and the quran repeatedly tells us about it. There were always two concepts of islam since after the prophetic state lost its balance within a few generations after the prophet. One is islam by odd people with knowledge and the other is establishment islam. One represents actual islam and the other religion islam.
I hope things are a bit more clear for you but you need to work at it by yourself and that needs a lot of time. To make sense of things is not that easy, if it was humanity would have landed on the moon many moon ago.
The quran is alive and an interactive book just like we interact with each other. You learn a word and them read the book and it makes sense then you learn another word and that makes sense and so one has to carry on. One cannot go straight for calculus if one has not done the numbers yet.
regards and all the best.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
How do you even know there is one God? There may be more than one. What proof do you have that there is only one God and not a consortium of Gods ruling the Universe. Heck there is more proof implying the existence of many Gods that only one God.
Dear calypsodc, the divine revelation state that there is only and only one God. We have no scripture that tells us there are many Gods. By God I mean the creator of this universe.
regards and all the best.
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
Dear calypsodc, the divine revelation state that there is only and only one God. We have no scripture that tells us there are many Gods. By God I mean the creator of this universe.
regards and all the best.
Dear Mughal1. Which revelation are you talking about? How do you know they are right? consider this excerpt from this news article : American researchers claim to have solved a cryptic formula that renowned mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan believed came to him in dreams while on his deathbed, the Daily Mail reported on Saturday.
The formula was contained in a letter he wrote to his mentor, the English mathematician G.H. Hardy, from his deathbed in 1920 outlining several new mathematical functions that had never been heard of before, together with a theory about how they worked. It had baffled mathematicians for more than 90 years, but new findings — presented at a conference at the University of Florida last month — reportedly show that Ramanujan’s “hunch” about his formula was right — that it could explain the behaviour of black holes.
“We've solved the problems from his last mysterious letters,” said the well-known American mathematician Ken Ono of Emory University.
“For people who work in this area of math, the problem has been open for 90 years … Ramanujan's legacy, it turns out, is much more important than anything anyone would have guessed when Ramanujan died.” *
*He said the so-called “deathbed puzzle” which, according to Ramanujan, was revealed to him by the goddess Namagiri, may unlock secrets about black holes. “We proved that Ramanujan was right. We found the formula explaining one of the visions that he believed came from his goddess. No one was talking about black holes back in the 1920s when Ramanujan first came up with mock modular forms, and yet, his work may unlock secrets about them,” said Professor Ono. **
Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?
In my previous post Ramanujam's deathbed dreams revealed by a Goddess has been proved true abt 100 years later. So there is already another God involved. If you say Ramanujam was delusional why can't we say prophets were schizophrenic ? If anybody claimed to be a prophet today and claimed revelations, then that is what modern world would suspect him/her of.