God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

People in the main are uneducated therefore are very limited in their thinking. That results in false interpretations of divine message because people are not used to organised or purposeful thinking that leads to sure results. There is nothing wrong with being ignorant because that is natural state of human existence but man is created with ability to learn so remaining ignorant is a crime against God and humanity. That is because an ignorant person is no use for himself or anyone else. Knowledge is power and if one does not have this power then one is powerless to do anything.

Courage comes from knowledge and ignorance only breeds fear. It is through fear of the unknown man has taken forces of nature and other powerful things as his gods. However it is all a process of growing up. Man is born a baby and grows biologically, psychologically and sociologically. From the day God brought things to existence all has been evolving and has reached the stage that we observe today. It was a very long journey and it will remain a very, very long journey till we reach the stage that God has chosen for us to reach. A human being though begins as a single cell the potential placed within this cell is so great that man has yet to realise it for so many generations to come. It is like a huge tree that grows from a tiny seed bit by bit.

The quran has nothing to do with religion, blind faith and mullahism. It is a book which deals with all necessary information that humanity will ever need for its guidance. The quran is the only book in the world of its kind as a proof of divinity and its program. A book that is a divine manifesto, a divine constitution and a divine book of guidelines for making laws or legislation. In order to know all this from the quran itself one has to educate oneself to the level whereby the quran begins to make sense. After all no book is written without any purpose in mind of its author nor anyone does anything aimlessly. Anything that just happens without any intent and effort is taken as a mistake not a motivated act to some end. Even if someone kills someone by his mistake it is still a mistake and not a first degree murder.

What is quran? Centuries back in time an arab by name of muhammad claimed he was a divine messenger. People asked him, for proof of his claim so he gave them a book namely the quran as evidence to prove his claim. That is the book we are going to talk about and see if that claim was true or false.

Before we begin examination of the quran in some detail, it necessary for people to know the difference between self evident facts and proven facts. Then it is also vital to realise the difference between testimonial proven facts and theoretically proven facts.

God is not a self evident fact, that is because we humans cannot detect God by our senses directly or indirectly through instrumentation etc but the universe is self evident fact and all that which exists in it because it is detectable by human senses even if by use of instrumentation if not today may be at some stage later.

The quran is testimony of God therefore it needs to be examined as a testimony just as we examine the testimony of a witness in a court of law to see if it is true or false. However before we can properly examine any testimony of any witness we need to understand it properly because without understanding what a witness is saying we cannot judge whether what one is saying is true or false. If witness only spoke french and examiner only spoke persian things will not workout till one of them learns the language of the other, the same goes for subjects under discussion ie if one person talked about biology but other could only understand physics things will not work out till one person comes to know the subject the other is talking about. Likewise a child or baby minded person cannot understand grown up or educated person’s terminology. Since no one does anything without any purpose in mind neither one testifies without knowing why one is testifying, so knowing the purpose of the quran also becomes of vital importance. However once testimony is found to be sound ie without contradictions within and with respect to related self evident facts then it has proven reliable or true. This is called testimonial proof ie reliable testimony of a witness. One has to remember that one cannot add anything to the testimony of a witness from oneself nor can one take away anything from it, it has to be examined as it is. So the quran has to be examined the way it is given to mankind without saying what should or should not be in the quran. If the quran is found lacking in anything objectively only then it could be proven false but then we will have to prove that it does lack in necessary information regarding its stated purpose. That is if the quran states that it is for this or that purpose but when we examine it, it does not serve that purpose then it surely proves itself false but on the other hand if we find that it serves its stated purpose fully then the qurtan has proven its worth fully so it cannot be denied what it claims to be ie word of God.

Coming to theoretical proof, it is a best personal explanation of available evidences or clues. This is needed because something that happened did not happen before our eyes ie it happened in our absence and that there is no any witness to it either upon whom we could rely to tell us about it. That is because we arrived at the scene late and found only whatever clues were left behind to make whatever sense we could from the clues. For example, we are walking along a road and come across a dead body. There is no one there to tell us what happened to this person so all we can do is see whatever clues are there and come up with an explanation. It could be a murder or natural death or suicide or an accidental death etc etc. So whatever clues we find will help us decide what to make of this situation.

So one can see that theoretical proof is not as strong as witness based proof and witness based proof is not as strong as something that happens right before your own eyes. That is how far it is possible for humanity to reach the truth about any matter including existence of God.

This also proves the point that if there is a testimonial proof from God then to fall on blind faith is a false idea and is misleading and this idea must have been implanted in human mind by those who wanted to mislead mankind ie the imperial priesthood. It also prove the idea of religion coming from kings and their priests not God to serve their purpose. Islam is deen not religion. Islam is all about brotherhood of mankind based on testimonial proof whereas religion is a matter of divide and rule using blind faith for following priests and kings. That is how mankind have been used and abused in the name of God and religion. This is why kings and their priests perverted the divine messages to subvert them but they did not succeed in doing that however they succeeded in making fools of ignorant people. The result is a world that we see all around us today. In order to change this situation for the better we all must learn and educate ourselves and each other to save ourselves from use and abuse of each other.

So all people must learn quran to examine it as a divine manifesto for mankind, as a divine constitution for mankind and as a book of guidelines for making laws for mankind. The goal set by the quran for mankind is to establish peaceful, progressive and prosperous life through out the universe. The world in which we are born is only a lab for our experimentation to learn through trials and errors till we have become good enough to be one day managers of the universal factory of God. This process needed to be the way it is because we are supposed to learn from working of this universe and make changes to it to make it suitable for our own living in it ie make it compatible wit our existence through interactions within this universe. This will become clearer as I explain the purpose of creation.

more to come later.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

" Courage comes from knowledge and ignorance only breeds fear. It is through fear of the unknown man has taken forces of nature and other powerful things as his gods"

Some do worship Surya Dev and Vayu Dev (forces of nature). Some consider the concept of God or gods as equally ignorant and borne out of fear.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

fact for sure. says right here on the label.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Neither Fact nor Fiction. God is an unknown quantity. Can be neither proven nor disproven.

So take your pick. Either believe without evidence, or disbelieve without evidence.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

The conclusion for God should be reached actually by a process of elimination ... the Abrahamic example. This is a deductive process that rules out other things to be the source of life and existence ... This method is scientific ... It can never lead to proof - but can lead to "reasoned belief" ... Evidence is not the same as proof ... evidence can be empirical and there is plenty of evidence - i.e. we are evidence, the Qur'an is evidence and the historical accounts are evidence ... proof is a different matter ... although there are many proofs in the Qur'an for individual things ... collectively they are evidence for the Existence of God ...

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Dear friends, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Please concentrate on logic and evidence and how they combine to prove existence of God positively. If you ignore this relationship between logic and evidence then you cannot prove anything at all because then you want everything to happen before your eyes or as far as you are concerned nothing happened at all. A murder has not taken place just because it has not happened before your eyes. It shows how flawed is your thinking because you are denying the very principle that is accepted by all wise people in the world whereby they decide all such matters for which there is no direct evidence at all. After all what is TOE about? Yet almost every scientist worth the name accepts it as a theoretically proven fact.

The other way to look at positive proof of divinity beside testimonial proof is rational proof. It is a self evident fact that this universe is there. This universe was not always there is also an observed reality. This means it was created, why? Because unless something that changes with time is not created by something that does not change with time it cannot come about. Nothing can come out of nothing ie there has to be something that brings about something ie God has brought about this world. How is that possible?

Since we are here and we know that we are not here permanently so something has bought us here but the question is what brought that thing about? The answer is that thing was not brought about by anything because that had to be there always otherwise we end up with an unending chain of creators, which is impossible. Why is it impossible to have an unending chain of creators? It is because then before each creator could create anything the creator himself needs to be created by its creator. Take this to infinity and you will see that in that case nothing gets created. Let me explain it by an example.

I ask you to help me with some money, you tell me that I need to borrow it from someone else to give it to you but that guy tells you the same and so the story goes for ever and ever, tell me will I ever get the money I asked for? No, never. It is because each guy keeps going to the guy before him to get money of him so this chain of borrowing does not end so that I could get the help I need. Likewise if each creator needed another creator then when will any creator be there to create anything, creation could not be there at all. Since creation is there therefore it had to have a creator that was always there.

Why creator created this world and sent his revelation? Because creator wanted to express himself. Anything that exists and is lively has the impulse to exert itself ie it wants to be known. You have urge to be known if you exist and you are a lively being.

Tell me how would you introduce yourselves? Through your actions that show creativity on your part. God could not express himself unless he was being creative, nothing can. The other problem for urge of expression is that you need to be appreciated by something else that is capable of appreciating you as a creative being. In order to express himself God ended up creating this world and to be appreciated by something he created mankind in it. Something that is free to think ie has its own mind and has ability to show its own creativity. God has provided all tools and things of need for man to learn in this factory of God through experimentation ie trial and error till man becomes perfect enough to one day manage his universe for his own good. A time when human potential will become fully unfolded before man and that is the time when man will realise how great creator God was that he created such a wonderful thing called man who himself was such great creator the handy work of God. That is how one day God will be pleased with what he has created and man will also be please with what he has done with his God given abilities.

This is why people need to try their best to understand the quran properly. It has nothing at all to do with mullahs mumbo jumbo. The quran tells us repeatedly that Allah created all for mankind ie for man to have it under his control one day. He created horses and donkeys etc etc for mankind and man was able to think out ways to domesticate these animals for his use. The same way man has to learn how to become controller of the universe by first learning how it works and then using that knowledge for redesigning it so that it becomes like paradise for mankind to live in.

This is why first thing for humanity is to eliminate conflicts from between mankind then after unity get on with task of conquering the universe. The quran tells us that mankind will have peaceful, progressive and prosperous life throughout this universe. So there is plenty to to do yet than we can think of right now.

This is how the universe and the quran complement each other so God did not fail in expressing himself but we humans have yet to learn much more than we already have. We have yet many, many more generations to go before we can say we have established anything much in our own right.

God does not want pooja paat he wants to be appreciated through knowledge and creativity. Only people of knowledge and creativity can appreciate God due to his knowledge and creativity. This is why real human beings are graded above all else. God is only great because of his knowledge and creativity by which he was able to express his existence and greatness. So there is no sense in denying the very obvious.

The Quran is all about mankind as a single community so it looks at its actions as collective actions of humans as a single family therefore consequences of its actions are also interlinked for the reason of correction of its mindset, attitude and behaviour ie by way of interaction between its individuals and groups etc the human community can move forward in time doing better for itself or worse. When human community does wrong to each other and continues down that way after some time people rise against this situation and try to pull it off this course to place it on another way that leads to something better. This situation of error and correction will continue till mankind have had enough experience and finally know what is right or wrong and so give up living their lives the wrong way. The Quran though teaches things but it is people who need to learn things till they reach the level of learning that will help them realise what the Quran is actually teaching them. It is like a road map is their but a person to read it needs to prepare himself to be able to make use of it and that takes time and experience. No matter how much parents try to teach their child, the speed at which a baby learns is still a major factor. Since humans are created to learn like self programming robots so they will take time. Not only that but they will keep erring and they will keep on correcting themselves till they have learned enough to not to make as many mistakes as they do at the start of the learning process.

In Quran in things that happen man is only held responsible for criminal behaviour and for that intention or motive or purpose behind the action or inaction as well as the course of actions taken both count.

Life is all about learning but learning is only possible through trial and error. When a person is born he learns to use his brain, his senses, his limbs and in fact his entire body and things available to him.

In this process a person makes many, many mistakes and many a time hurts himself or others. You try to sit but fall over and over, again and again and even get hurt, when you try to learn how to stand, the same happens etc etc. Humans learn things throughout their lives eg you learn to read and write and learn professional skills and go through countless trials and mistakes. The ultimate aim is to be able to do things without making mistakes so we practice more and more in order to be better and better at doing things if not perfect.

This is why there is no concept of sin in Quran- because it is not a book of religion- but about stopping crime because it is about rule of law based system ie Islam. The Quran very clearly states that even if you kill someone by mistake, it is not a crime. It is because for any action to be a crime it has to be motivated by harmful and destructive intent. Any harm that results through mistakes should be compensated where possible through actions for better results ie you try your best to replace loss the best you humanly can. Only crime is to be punished but the intention for punishment of crime has to be restoration of balance in community that was disturbed by the crime so that peace returns to community after disturbance.

When a crime is carried out or is allowed to be carried out or is helped to be carried out then community spirit breaks down and once motivation for being a community is gone then you are no longer a community but individuals and groups based on private and personal vested interests against the common good or interest. If you committed a crime and others helped you in various ways eg stopped authorities from catching you, charging you, putting you on trial or saved you from being convicted and even after conviction people get you forgiveness then where does all this leave the human community spirit?

In Quran intervention is good if it is motivated for the benefit of society eg someone was going to kill somebody and you changed his mind, somebody was going to shoot somebody and you took away his gun, people were fighting and you intervened and saved people from bloodshed. Someone was going to take poison and you got there in time and saved him from doing that. Somebody burnt himself and you took him to hospital or put some ointment on him. Someone was accused falsely or wrongly and you intervened and proved he was accused falsely. Someone is convicted wrongly and you intervene and get him retrial and he is found not guilty and is freed etc etc.

When a person commits a crime, none is allowed to intervene to save him from being charged and put on trial and after conviction from his set out punishment. However, proper advice is allowed so that one does not commit crime to begin with or that one is not charged under false allegation, or put on trial and prosecuted or convicted wrongly or punished wrongly. This is why there is no forgiveness in Quran for criminal unless there is social benefit in doing that because Quran looks at criminal and the victim as members of the same family. If a family has only two brothers and one kills the other then by putting the other to death finishes off the family therefore out of necessity there could be exceptions to rules at times for the community. It is because man is not perfect and all his actions are not necessarily perfect. Therefore the need for a degree of respite is inevitable. From point of view of God his law is fine but from point of view of man, he needs its understanding and he needs to learn its proper application and wherever things fall on man the possibility of error cannot be ruled out so God had to compensate for that. God has limitations as a God and man has limitations as a man. Just as God cannot be expected to do un-Godly things so a man cannot be expected to do things beyond his natural limits as a man.

Sin is an imaginary concept and so is forgiveness and atonement etc. This is why these are religious inventions by establishment priests to give people sense of freedom from punishment of their crimes in this world by leaving everything to hereafter and then introduce the idea of forgiveness through intervention of good guys to end the sense of punishment for crimes. This way you do what you like and then say certain prescribed words or do some prescribes rituals and all is well, as if you are a new born. These are not Quranic concepts but were adopted into Islam by establishment and its clergy from other religions for their own purposes but later priestly classes accepted them as they are without any due thought process and they keep spreading them. By looking at Muslim societies throughout the world we can see the results of that. Islam is more about this life than hereafter. There is a saying in Urdu that duniya aakhirat ki kheti hai ie the life in this world is the one upon which depends future life or you reap what you sow. The end result depends upon your own actions. It is wrong to think that if you commit crimes in this world, you can get away with that just because you believe certain things or say certain words or do certain rituals.

The point to remember is that if mistakes are not to be punished and crime has to be that which is motivated and intended then conviction is inevitable and once conviction is there then punishment that fits the crime is inevitable because that is the way God has set up things and no amount of nonsense beliefs and rituals invented by priests can change that. The concept the Quran puts forth is that of collective punishment rather than individual punishment and concept of punishment is based upon cause and effect or consequences of peoples’ own actions as a family. The Quran wants humanity to sort out its all problems according to set out program and guidelines so nicely that one day the world is what it is supposed to be ie a blissful place called paradise to live in. So long as people keep neglecting their responsibilities as a human community, the world will remain as hell as people make it for themselves for as long as they want it.

This is why people need to understand the Quranic concepts and not listen to their ignorant religious leaders or keep suffering the consequences. This is what evolution of humanity is all about and that is what revolutions are all about. The world is going through cyclic changes and will continue that way till a proper human society comes about that is exactly as the Quran wants it to be. It is people who are going to bring it about not God. He has sent his messenger for the final time to humanity and has said that Islam is finally to prevail ie the world will end up peaceful, progressive and prosperous regardless of what opponents of divine writ think or do to try and prevent it. They will lose out and humanity will become the winner. So we all should be part of solutions to problems and not be part of problems. This cannot happen unless we intervene for the good of humanity by doing things that are of benefit to humanity and stop intervening for the harm and destruction of humanity by doing things that benefit none or even harm others. This is why religion is a false concept and deen is a true concept. And this is why priests are wrong but learned scholars of Quran based deen are right.

The Quran tells people to find out things and if you do not know them ask those who really know them. Don’t go to those who do not know them. Who knows things and who does not can become obvious from what they tell us ie knowledge speaks for itself.

regards and all the best

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

We are evidence of something, but why should we conclude we are evidence of God?

You cannot assume something is evidence of something else, when the something else hasn't even been established as existing.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Disbelief is due to a lack of evidence. I don't believe, because I have not seen evidence for a deity. If I am shown evidence, I will change my mind. That's a very big difference.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Dear southie, it depends on how knowledgeable the people are who reject the idea of a creator or accept forces of nature what they are not.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

No, dear queer, we need to see inside the universe and the book as well to see what it is all about.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Dear Med, could you please explain what you mean by proof? Proof is an argument that uses evidences to explain something or an event etc as I understand it. Proof itself is not evidence but explanation of the evidence as to how something ought to work out. This could be by a witness of the event or by anyone who has come across some clues about something.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

That depends on what you mean by evidence dear kprasad because whatever is there needs explanation and a good explanation is only and only that which explains things without leaving any flaws or loose ends.

If by evidence you mean you have not met God face to face then you are 100% right because neither have I.

1)There is an irrefutable rational argument for God. That is an evidence.

2)There is an irrefutable scriptural argument for God. That is very strong evidence because it explained everything necessary without any flaws.

3) There is an irrefutable moral argument for case of God which is also good evidence.

So to claim there is lack of evidence for God would seem a bit strange or out of place. To me it is result of our ignorance or because we want the world to be the way it is. In either case one is weak position and the other a very stupid position to hold. The weak position ie ignorance is acceptable because people are born ignorant and it takes time to become learned provided one is doing all one can to become learned. Otherwise one is worst than animals because if a person has life and he wastes it in nonsense then what kind of human being is that person that does not do any good for himself or for others?

If one has ulterior motives to keep things the way we humans have been seeing them for generations then one is a most stupid person because one is not moved by painful suffering that exists in our world and is not doing his bit as a member of human family to get rid of it as soon as possible instead one is trying to capitalise on all this pain and suffering.

This makes the case for the quran very strong indeed because it is a program for peaceful, progressive and prosperous life for mankind in this universe. A book worth understanding because such program was impossible for humanity to come up with.

People with vested interests conspired against divine revelations always. They sided with each other as ruling classes and priestly classes and money lenders and together they used and abused masses to no end. This is why one is either for benefit or for harm of mankind. That is a continuous battle between forces that want peaceful, progressive and prosperous world and forces that want more and more wars which result from use and abuse of some people by others for their own petty ends at the expense of common good. In a way they are responsible for killing community spirit in humanity.

This is nowadays particularly true about developed nations that are trying to destroy our world by pushing secular democracy based on capitalism against quranic islam. In this game they have been using mullahism and madrassas for a long time now in order to confuse people about divine revelation ie the quran. They want human rights through human use and abuse. They want to help humanity by copyright laws whereby they bar others from access to knowledge and where possible they try their best to bar others from resources as well.

This is just to show where we are heading by blindly following each other into pit of hell yet we think we are highly learned and clever people.

The quran warned us all against all these things because it tells us to look at consequences for our actions. Nonetheless we are happy we have millionaires and billionaires no matter how many millions of people have been destroyed in this process of wealth creation as it is called by these stupid people.

A very clear proof that we are going the wrong way and the only right way for us as a family is to learn the divine program properly and then follow it if we want a different world from that which we already have and it is getting worse and worse day by day. Billions of people are living below poverty line in the world and even in the so called developed world a very hight percentage eg 40% of population is on anti depressants because of pressures we are putting each other under for no reason at all. We could set up our world in a very different way that works for us but why do we not?

Hopefully there is lot more to come as we develop the idea and explore things further from different angles. The idea of God makes no sense on its own it has its own context or bigger picture in which it fits perfectly and that is when it becomes very obvious that God does exist and that the quran is the only book in the world that is actual revelation of God. In fact origin of word God in itself is a very interesting thing that we should talk about to see how it came about and was used by people. It is because the very idea of God could not result from human mind especially not from the mind of the original people who worshipped anything they saw out of fear because it frightened them.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain things further from my point of view, regards and all the best.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Mughal1,

Argument and evidence aren't the same thing. You can have an argument, more precisely a theory, that explains evidence. However, the evidence needs to be empirical. Because, every argument, without evidence, you can make for one deity, I can make for another. Therein lies the problem. In order for one to accept a deity, one must believe in it first! You must have faith first, which means suspension of rationalism.

Every argument you are making for the Qur'an, Christians make for the Bible, and Hindus make for the Mahabharata. I have read all three. They are all filled with violence, pillaging, war, and only demonstrate a duplicitous deity. What always interests me is that these scriptures reflect every ignorance of the people that wrote them.

Your argument about the cultural decay, really, is contra indicated by statistics. As hard as it is believe, the world is becoming a less violent place. There is less hunger in the world. There are more philanthropic organizations. This, also coincides with a decrease in global religious beliefs. As I pointed out in another thread, the largest philanthropists in the world, who have pledged to give away all their money, are all atheists. To counter this, would you say the suicide bombers in FATA are not religious enough? I think they would disagree with you. If you say they are misinterpreting their religion, how is that possible? If it's the absolute truth, how can it be misinterpreted?

I don't know if there is a deity, but I don't need a deity to wish you well. I don't need an iron age book to tell me that I should care about what happens to you, but I do.

The universe as, we know it, is 14.5 billion years old. Is there a deity in it? I don't know. I haven't seen evidence for one. But we do know that life in the universe isn't limited to our little spec of dirt here, on Earth, by probability alone. In the huge expanse of time, galaxies collide, stars die, untold billions upon billions of living beings have died in cosmic calamities. Even on Earth, in our cosmically insignificantly short life span, 99% of all things that have ever existed have become extinct. All of this because some deity decided that about a 100,000 years ago it was going to designate us as important. Then why do everything else?

I don't know if a deity exists, but since makes a deity unnecessary.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Thank you dear kprasad for sharing your thoughts. I am glad that you have reached these thoughts and have shared them and summed them up nicely.

Now here is how I think about things as per my study of things.

1)If what you say is accepted then does it not cause confusion as regard concepts themselves?

For example, how would you explain the difference between self evident facts and proven facts?

Also between testimonial proof and theoretical proof? They each prove things very differently.

Is forensic science used for testing testimonial evidence based on same idea as scientific method? If not what is the difference?

Where does science fit in all this and how will you explain and fit in all this concept of empirical evidence in there? It is because it is impossible to take them as all one and the same thing.

Term empirical evidence as a concept in my view applies both to theoretical proof as well as testimonial proof but in each case it works exactly as I have already explained.

Unless there is an alternative explanation that fits them together neatly by showing how they can work I am afraid my explanation is the only one that stands.

  1. I agree with you completely as to what people make of the allegedly divine scripture and how they use them. However, does that mean only they have right to interpret the scriptures or anyone has the God given right to do so. If all of us have access to the allegedly divine scriptures then why any of us does not take the initiative to interpret them so that the truth may be discovered?

Dear brother I take it as an excuse to not to bother with doing that. It is easy for us to blame others for whatever they are doing but are we ourselves not part of everything going on in the world? Why not? Why should we let anyone get away with murder and if we did then what kind of world will come about as a result? People reach various stages in knowing things in their life time so if any of us thinks he knows anything better one must come and share it so that rest of us could learn from it and change the direction of mankind to a better goal with better terms and conditions.

I am studying the quran but I do not discount other scriptures, they have a lot of useful things just like the quran has despite not being direct word of God but the quran was not the only book sent by God. He sent his message to all nations on this earth. The gist of those messages remains there in this world even today and that in time will be proven. We hardly study our own scriptures in which we claim to believe so it will take time for mankind to see other scriptures as well. In my view they all support each other to great degree when they are interpreted in a particular way.

You say you have read scriptures, so have I but unlike you I am of the opinion they have been misinterpreted. How did I come to that conclusion? Just by studying the quran and reading the interpretations of those scriptures. The question is why they have been misinterpreted and misrepresented? It is mainly because learning process is very slow and understanding things does not come that easily on one hand and then ruling classes, priestly classes and money lenders have vested interests so all these together play a role in it. It is therefore necessary that we put our own efforts in to knowing things better.

If you have time please watch the following videos. I hope you understand hindi.

awakening with brahma kumaris shivani latest episode(gods revelations) part-29 - YouTube
awakening with brahma kumaris shivani latest episode(gods revelations) part-30 - YouTube

251 - The World According to Darwin / Total Onslaught Mini Series - Walter Veith - YouTube

regards and all the best.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Peace Med911

It's good that you have agreed that we are evidence of something ... To answer your question why we "assume" we are evidence of God ... First of all you have selectively responded to my post ... I didn't say we "assume" we are evidence of God ... I said, "the conclusion should be reached by a process of elimination" ... this infers an exact process by placing potential candidates as our "cause" and then ruling them out ...

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Peace kprasad

This is not true ... In order to accept Deity we need to open our mind to the possibility of Deity and this is a very rational thing to do. With this possibility established what we do then is subject any "claimant" of Deity to self-consistency against their claims and reflect on the matters that are said about that Deity by the adherents of that particular faith.

By a process of a) getting answers that are satisfactory - the "searcher" aught to b) edge closer to the idea being presented about that Deity c) ask more questions ... checking throughout this process for internal and external consistency. And removing any unnecessary or rigged conditions that would hijack our fair conclusions.

The empircal evidence we have is The Qur'an itself ... since we can show the ideas presented are not from us and he who uttered those words directs them to have come from Deity.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Mughal1,

By definition, self-evident is without proof. It’s a rhetorical device, not empirical For something to be proven, it has to be backed up by empirical evidence.

Testimony, in itself, is not proof. It can be one of many sources of evidence, but the testimony needs to be backed up by data.

Testimonial evidence, in rhetoric and apologetics, is called anecdotal evidence. As is in forensics, it’s very dubious. It cannot be tested using the scientific method. It relies solely on the recollection and prejudices of a person, or a group. In short, in order for something to be proven, there must be empirical evidence that can be tested and duplicated, or there must be evidence, that can be examined beyond anecdotal accounts, that something occurred.

If something is divine and is the absolute truth, then how can it be open to interpretation The Pythagorean theorem is an absolute truth. Pi is an absolute truth. Neither can be misinterpreted They are the same everywhere! So, how can something divine be open to sectarianism? If it is open to interpretation then by definition, it’s not an absolute truth.

Letting someone get away with murder has nothing to do with scripture! Killing someone is wrong. I know this from within myself. I do not want to be killed, and I do not want others to be murdered. Would you make the assertion that the only thing stopping you from being evil is your belief in a deity? I do not believe you would. I believe you’re a good person because goodness is within you.

Religion is used only for subjugation. The priests and those in power use it to enslave the weak and illiterate Recently India executed one of the men, and I use that term very loosely, convicted for the Mumbai attack. He was just a poor kid, with no education, no way forward, and impoverished. He was manipulated by men wielding religion and a promise of a better after life. This is what religion does.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

psyah,

Your entire assertion rests on first believing the Quran to be true. You're making my point. You have to accept the deity, first! I will accept the Quran to be true, if you can show it to be true. You cannot use the Quran to validate itself. If that's the metric, then every religious book is true....back to square one!

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Thank you dear kprasad for taking the trouble to explain as you understand things.

1) Let us talk about self evident facts. That is not rhetoric but facts as perceived and understood by anyone objectively. This universe is self evident in which we live. Things are happening in this universe and if we perceive them then they are are self evident facts. Because they are self explanatory we do not need any proofs for them and that is why they are called self evident facts ie anyone who has come across them will observe them the very same way. What you know about the sun is also known by anyone else. So all who are aware of the facts none of them need to prove them to anyone else because they are self evident. Evident means something that you can actually see or hear or touch or taste or smell etc etc.

Evident means manifest in two ways eg it is out there for all involved to see as well as it is self explanatory for its existence and function ie how it works or the purpose of it. Because self evident thing or event is manifest therefore it needs no further proof or proving. Any other definition of self evident fact or event is incorrect and confusing.

2) Testimonial proof and proving is only needed for things or events that are not self evident to us all. Only some of us are witness to such things and when they tell us about them we can either believe them or disbelieve them. However, we have invented ways to be as sure as possible about these proofs, so we examine them for that reason. For example, you saw a road accident and told me about it, now it is up to me to believe you or not. If I have no reason to not to believe you then why should I reject your story? And if I must reject your story then it is I who needs to come up with reasons for rejecting it. These reason have to be reasonably solid because I am in a way accusing you of lying or dishonesty. If I have no solid ground to reject what you are telling me then it is not right for me to reject what you say.

That is when a question arises how do I examine what you tell me? I will look for you contradicting yourself ie logical inconsistency within your own story or see if you are contradicting any self evident facts that you are talking about. I will also question your motive or purpose behind this story of yours. If I find that all is ok then this is clear proof that you are not lying to me and that I have no reason to doubt what you have told me.

On the other hand if I found various faults in what you told my by your own admission then I can catch you lying so I will have the right to reject your story because it has become doubtful after I found faults in it.

3)Theoretical proof is all about collection of clues and their explanations and need of that arises only when something or event is not self evident and it there is no witness to it eg TOE.

When it comes to existence of God, it can be proven rationally but yes question does arise whether this God is hindu God, Parsi God, Jewish God, Christian God or Muslim God etc etc. However, by examining scriptures I think it is posible to reach a solid conclusion.

This is why a good explanation of scriptures is necessary that clearly shows what is really in them. This can only come about when some sensible people spend their time on this issue and when they do I think they will find all scriptures talking about the same God.

This is the reason I am trying to study the quran in a way that muslims hardly ever do. This is the reason I do not reject what other scriptures have to say about God either because they do make a lot of sense. This is going to take time and that is why people instead of rejecting scriptures must look into them themselves in light of ways that we have invented for finding truth about things.

At the moment all I see people including yourself rejecting things because what others told them about scriptures. Now we know people have their own agendas so is it not possible that the rulers and the priests and the bankers may have misinterpreted and misrepresented scriptures to us lay people the way it suited them? After all there is a lot of vested interest in this particular thing called religion.

I do not disagree with your perception of things but may be we have been fed with stuff for a purpose and that should also be obvious to us through what is going on in our world and who is making such things happen and why.

I mean look at how many multinational are breaking local, national and international laws to get whatever they want. Not only that look at how they are trying to get laws made in their favour at the expense of masses. So they have very strong motivation to spread wrong information about parties that oppose them.

It is not for me or for that matter anyone else to force anything on to anyone else because God and scriptures do not allow this however, you or I have no choice but to agree that in this world there is far too much tension between people. Is this due to God or mankind being ignorant and arrogant not knowing how to live in this world sensibly?

The quran gives a purposeful program, constitution and law that solves this problems which is otherwise impossible to solve and even after the quran for last 1500 years we still are fighting after being told how to live because some people derailed humanity from its true path. Who were those people and why they knocked humanity out of its proper way of life and how all this happened are questions that we all need to ponder over?

I can only explain things the way they make sense to me and I hope my explanation of things makes some sense. Thanks for you participation in this discussion because it helps us all to learn from each other.

regards and all the best.

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Only athiests can answer this question logically.