Gingerly, Arabs Question Suicide Bombings
It has been muffled by Israel’s latest military offensive,
but a debate is under way among Palestinians over whether
suicide bombing is in their self-interest. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/03/international/middleeast/03SUIC.html?todays
Clean your Own Mess
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/03/international/middleeast/03SUIC.html?todays
Gingerly, Arabs Question Suicide Bombings
By JAMES BENNET
ERUSALEM, July 2 - It has been muffled by Israel’s latest military offensive in the West Bank and the Bush administration’s demands for the ouster of Yasir Arafat, but a debate is under way among Palestinians over suicide bombing. Criticism of such attacks is made in code and pitched to Palestinian self-interest rather than broader moral concerns. The critics are trying to avoid alienating Palestinians who feel that any weapon is legitimate when turned against Israelis, whom they view as stealing their land and using overwhelming force to keep it. Advertisement
Like President Bush’s demand for democratic change and new leaders, the criticism of suicide bombing cuts to the heart of competing Palestinian visions for statehood, of the proper means for achieving it, and of the deference that should be paid to Israeli or American public opinion. You have to appeal to people's self-interest, in terms of what works and what doesn't work,'' said Hanan Ashrawi, a Palestinian legislator from Ramallah. Dr. Ashrawi was among 55 Palestinian politicians and intellectuals who published an unusual appeal to fellow Palestinians on June 19 in the Arabic-language newspaper Al Quds. It called for a reassessment of military operations that target civilians in Israel’’ and urged those behind them to stop pushing our youth to carry out these operations.'' The letter said the attacks were not producing any results except confirming the hatred, malice and loathing between the two peoples’’ and endangering the possibility that the two peoples will live side by side in peace in two neighboring states.'' The day the advertisement was published, a suicide bomber killed six people at a Jerusalem bus stop. That and the new Israeli offensive into the West Bank, begun after another suicide bombing just the day before, shouldered the development aside. But among Palestinians, the appeal reverberated in conversations and the Arabic news media. It continued to run in Al Quds for several days, gathering more than 500 backers, some through the Internet. A rebuttal was published elsewhere, calling for the use of all ways and all means’’ of armed struggle.'' It gained about 150 signatures. Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, a leader of the Islamic group Hamas, bitterly denounced the signers of the first petition, which he called the appeal to declare war on the Palestinian resistance.‘’ Despite such strong criticism, none of the original petitioners have reported any threats. Even some Palestinian politicians who said they opposed attacks on civilians shied away from the petition, calling it one-sided for focusing on Palestinian attacks. President Bush has denounced suicide attackers as murderers.'' Yet even signers of the appeal balked at directly criticizing the bombers, who are called martyrs but are revered in nationalist as well as religious terms, pitied as desperate victims or romanticized as patriots who strike back against Israeli tanks with their only weapons their own bodies. This help explains why, though a narrow majority of Palestinians supports suicide bombing, a far broader majority opposes arresting those behind the attacks. There is a global culture of that, of how sweet it is to die for your liberty,‘’ Dr. Ashrawi said. You can find quotations from the American revolution.'' She said that although she opposed any violence against civilians, it was no time to take the high moral ground’’ on the subject of suicide bombing, with Israeli forces holding hundreds of thousands of Palestinians under curfew in the West Bank. We should make it a political debate,'' she said. Some signers of the petition raised the concern that the Israeli military operation was further radicalizing Palestinians and undercutting their message. But Israel says suicide bombing has forced its action in the West Bank. Today Israeli forces continued to operate in seven of eight Palestinian cities and towns, rounding up suspects in what the army called a continuing hunt for militants. In Hebron, the army lifted the curfew to allow students to take exams, then detained about 300 students at one college for questioning, witnesses said. Leaders of the peace camp in Israel heard in the original appeal a call for a halt to all violence, a halt to the intifada - the uprising - itself. What they are saying is really, `Stop the violence,‘’’ said Galia Golan, a leader of the group Peace Now. But the appeal was more narrowly tailored than that, not using the word suicide'' and referring only to attacks on civilians in Israel.‘’ That is understood by Palestinian as referring only to pre-1967 Israel and not to the West Bank and Gaza, which Israel occupied in 1967. Palestinians overwhelmingly support attacks on Israeli soldiers and settlers in those areas, arguing that such attacks amount to legal resistance. Regarding all of historical Palestine as occupied, Hamas renounces any negotiated settlement that results in a two-state solution. But most Palestinians, including Mr. Arafat, say they seek a state only in the West Bank and Gaza. Dr. Khalil Shikaki, a pollster based in Ramallah, said support for attacks on soldiers and settlers in the occupied territories was almost reaching the point of consensus, more than 90 percent.'' But suicide attacks within pre-1967 Israel appeared to be losing support, he said. In a poll in December, he said, 58 percent of the Palestinian respondents said they supported such attacks. By May, that figure had slipped to 52 percent, though fully 86 percent of Palestinians opposed arresting those carrying out such attacks. The poll had a margin of sampling error of three percentage points. Dr. Shikaki called the published appeal a very important step in legitimizing the debate and taking it to the public level.‘’ Yet the leaders urging this reassessment are approaching the subject gingerly. Dr. Sari Nusseibeh, the president of Al Quds University and the representative in Jerusalem of the Palestine Liberation Organization, appeared June 29 on the Al Jazeera network with a leader of Hamas and the mother of a Palestinian who had carried out a suicidal attack on a Gaza settlement. Dr. Nusseibeh, a professor of philosophy, emphasized that there is general agreement that we naturally support resistance in general,'' according to a transcript provided by the Middle East Media Research Institute. But he argued that there was a difference between sacrifice of one’s life for defense’’ and ``sacrifice of one’s life in an attack.‘’
International
I'm glad they're beginning to question their own moves.
SUICIDE BOMBING
Its not the blow that wil defeat a nation .
Not all arabs were for it just as some islamicv scholars always question suicide as abhorrent act by itself .I guess nothing is good in desperation even discision.I dont see suicide bombing as solution aside from shariat controversy ,its like fighting with stones & spears .Bits of damage is never going to bring down a armed nation .
What do I believe Islamically regarding Suicide Bombing?
It’s HARAM
It’s clearly mentioned in the **HOLY QURAN
Chapter 4
Line 29**
Point proved!
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hula.gif
GLORY OF ISLAM WILL NEVER BE EXTINGUISHED
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hula.gif
[This message has been edited by Pakistani Tiger (edited July 04, 2002).]
And yet you still have folks, even on this forum , who support it.
May God Help Them.
martydom operations are allowed pakistani tiger wouldn't know the virtues of martydom, these brave souls go out witht he intentions of kiilinng the so called inncoent jew aka resevists in the army, he supports that other corrupt loser musharraef who has sold out pakistan to the american operatives what would he care for such a pious action !
....then there will be Khilafah Rashidah on the method of the Prophethood. (Ahmad)
suicide = haraam
killing innocent civilians = haraam
i thinks its more of a cowardice....
and it creates more problems than solving any....
all in all, haraam wud be a better choice of words....
"Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." **Quran(3:147)
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
002.216
YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
002.217
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
004.075
YUSUFALI: And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
004.076
YUSUFALI: Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
004.077
YUSUFALI: Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah: They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!
004.078
YUSUFALI: "Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" If some good befalls them, they say, "This is from Allah"; but if evil, they say, "This is from thee" (O Prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah." But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact?
004.079
YUSUFALI: Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul. and We have sent thee as a messenger to (instruct) mankind. And enough is Allah for a witness.
If "fighting" is prescribed... is it "allowed" for the whole "Muslim" ummah to ignore these verses of the Quran? and sit back and watch the show of the weak being oppressed by an armed nation?
How can we ignore all the verses about fighting in the cause of Allah, and choose the verse that condemns suicide?? How can we ignore all those things that have forced those people to blow themselves apart, people who have their whole life ahead of them... how can we ignore all the INJUSTICES that they are facing?
Wonderful Different. Now before I embark upon a lengthy discussion about what Allah decreesa about helping the poor and righting the wrongs in one's own society before engaging in violence, I would like to ask what you are doing here being counted among the hypocrites...go and fight....JazaakAllah
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
*....
How can we ignore all the verses about fighting in the cause of Allah, and choose the verse that condemns suicide?? How can we ignore all those things that have forced those people to blow themselves apart, people who have their whole life ahead of them... how can we ignore all the INJUSTICES that they are facing? *
[/quote]
even the suicide is committed by the very same oppressed nation. it really shows the pathetic state of ummah who are fighting to keep their identity as "I'm Saudi", "I am Kuwaiti", "I am Pakistani" etc.
every once in a while a part of ummah faces a crisis other parts just turn away their faces "its ur country's problem", "its ur own problem" and hence leaving it upto UN or US to decide the fate.
look at East Timor, Kashmir, Palestine, Bosnia etc. we see it all the time. we have divided ourselves into boundaries. an ummah is no more. its all about geographical control now.
anyway, coming back to topic, what is HARAM should never be considered unless there are exemptions in Quran.
what are we supposed to do? purify ourselves (jihad with oneself) so that we get purified/decent leadership. once we get a sincere/decent/purified leadership we'll be able to stand up to opposing forces and actually "negotiate" and not "take dictation" the conditions.
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
Wonderful Different. Now before I embark upon a lengthy discussion about what Allah decreesa about helping the poor and righting the wrongs in one’s own society before engaging in violence, I would like to ask what you are doing here being counted among the hypocrites…go and fight…JazaakAllah
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
You’re 100 percent correct.
Asalam-u-elukum
well first all its nice to be here and reena i am not satisied with ur answer that u saying that bits of stone cannt damage the army nation i think u have not studied the past of muslims that how only when the first battle of mulism with un-belivers they were only 313 againts a thousands of un-belivers army but at that moment they won that battle they were not affraid that ohhhhhhh god this is soo big army but they were having a strong heart with full of islam and u take another example in iran that only Imam qumani in 1979 lead the people of iran and free them from the killer ruller the Shah its not that we r just few its we have to be faith in god and prophet and the 2nd part of ur opinion that why they r killing then selves by suiside bombing well what can they doo? just think urself if in a country rulled by un believers of ur relegion kills u and ur family members, people muslims andas(Muhammed said:if u hurt a one muslimeverybody will feel its pain as we r all like fingers in a hand." ) what reaction u will take first u want to kill that person whohad killed ur family or members if u dont find any guns or fighting thing there is no another option left for them and what u saying about peace peace is that u called peace distroyingmuslims every part of the world and they in reaction if they take any effect u called them terrorist.why? why?
JaniUK,
You are right in that numbers do not matter. Reena is taking a realistic approach here, but Islamic history has shown numbers are not as important as faith.
However, I'd like to say that you left something out. Suicide bombers are injuring and killing innocent civilians, among which women and children are included. Tell me of one battle that the Rasul went into that included the killing of women and children - and that too - deliberatly? IN fact, the Rasul stressed that soldiers must battle soldiers - man battles man, but women and children, and those that are disabled and can't fight - like physicallly disabled, and elderly , etc aren't mandated to fight.
Also, there are many incidences where the Prophet commanded humane and good treatment toward those taken as prisoners of War.
This humane character of war is absent from the suicide bombing missions.
The other thing that makes suicide bombing Islamically wrong is SUICIDE.
There is a difference between a soldier going into war and saying to himself "well, I'm going to try my best, and I'll leave my survival in the hands of God"
as oppose to "Well, I know I will die in this war 100 percent, because the weapons will be attached to me, and when THEY die, I die too."
There is a BIG difference between THROWING a bomb, and strapping it on to yourself and taking out people around you.
Please do contemplate this.
Since the time of the first battle of Badr, fighting has now become a science. Nations who fight to win, wage their wars with war machines that encompass the whole society. The people who actually pull the trigger are merely considered the spear tip of that huge war machine. There is very little doubt that in the near future, that tip will largely consist of robots, drones, etc. and not humans. I am sure that personal bravery and sacrifice in war will be considered quaint but is unlikely to win wars. Pakistani youngsters in their passion marched off to fight the western infidels with their Taliban brothers. Everyone knows the result! so can suicide bombing tip the balance and acheive victory for the final goals? I doubt it.
British scholar says martyrdom operations are the Palestinians only choice to resist Jewish Nazism
Jul 11, 2002
London - A noted British scholar and expert on Islam has voiced understanding of martyrdom operations (referred to in the West as suicide bombings) and the compelling reasons causing young Palestinians to embark on such awesome acts.
Karen Armstrong, a lecturer at London's Leo Baeck College and author of several books on the Middle East, described martyrdom operations as acts of desperate resistance to an overwhelmingly more powerful enemy bent on suppressing the legitimate aspirations of a people for freedom from occupation and apartheid.
She recognized that the operations are ruthless, but then she said that the occupation was even more ruthless.
" Violence of any sort always breeds violence, and the occupation itself is an act of extreme violence, domination and oppress. The Way things have been moving has been aggressively against the Palestinians."
Armstrong, a former nun, believes that the Israeli occupation is responsible for the kind of violent resistance it meets from the Palestinians.
"The resistance will be as ruthless and violent as the occupation is. Every occupation breeds its own kind of resistance."
Armstrong expressed the view, shared by most Muslim scholars, that martyrdom operations have to do with Israeli murderous oppression than with religion.
" I don't think people sit at home and read the Qura'n and say, yes, I must go and bomb Israel. This is not how religion works, and I see just absolute hopelessness when people have nothing to lose. Palestinians don't have F-16s, and they don't have tanks. They don't have anything to match Israel's arsenal. They only have their own bodies."
Finally, Armstrong accused Israelis and Jews of using the issue of anti-Semitism as a scarecrow to bully Europe to support Israeli Nazism.
"They say Europe is anti-Semitic because for the first time Europe is becoming aware of the plight of the Palestinians. It is part of a campaign to discredit European input in any future peace process."
Sugar, spice 'n all things nice
Salamz Pyarigu!
well first of all i must that i accept ur comments and truths about saying of prophet(p.b.u.h).and there is no doubt that of the truth of the sayings, well being here chatting here on forums what u think we get what we are helping are we helping those muslims. Pyari gdu just realise about the feelings when u get these such koofnaq moments if this happens to ur family what will u think u will be in a great anger u dont think any other option saying on these forums are real easy that this is wrong this is right do muslims do this they do this doo this bla bla what u think are we a real muslims if then why we are not helping as we are very big population as orederd by prophet but again u will not coz u dont have such a pain in ur heart.( is this prophet said just my beloved muslims if muslims are killed by kafir just sit relax on ur seats and chat on forums and suggest ur feelings ahhh why u just take only one prases of prophet why u dont apply others there are soo many others sayings for muslims) .My brother i dont know i am wrong or right but i can feel and what i can do from myself i am doing and 2nd other that u saying its not good to killing women and childern i think why coz when this all world full of muslims just doo nothing not backing them except Iran not supporting not doing any thing for them and then they dont have another option left so they have to do with thier own what they think best.
Plz just fighting here with each other we will still the same in infulence of Britain and USA.so first we have to correct ourselfs and then we should say something.OK
ALLAH HAFIZ
Jani UK
ARE YOU MAHAJIROUN sympathiser?
You subscribe to converting the world into KHILAFA?
Without waiting for your answer ,i ll tell you most religous minded British young ppl. like you r …You might not admit for obvious reason of being pinned down ,but you r
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rotato.gif
What crazy idea in this 21 st century is it to go ruin your own life like the hippies of 60s against the wishes of the parents who wasted thee lifes earnings & time brionging youths like you up only to shirk your responsibility to abandon them chasing doubtfull goals in Kashmir Afghanistan & Palestine .
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/nook.gif
If your moulanas can live without the dole of the socialist erstern countries of Europe ,how do you think these parasites can prove themselves anymore than mediocre mind of no more education than 7th century reading arabic bedouin.
Prove yourself of any more worth than class 10 education that you have just as your leader islamist .Do you have any skill vocation ,jobs ?
You cant convince me or anyone just by writing few sentences affirming your beliedf faith & opinions …what model do you have ..what ratinal plans you have ,or just blind faith
[quote]
Originally posted by Xara:
**
British scholar says martyrdom operations are the Palestinians only choice to resist Jewish Nazism
Jul 11, 2002
London - A noted British scholar and expert on Islam has voiced understanding of martyrdom operations (referred to in the West as suicide bombings) and the compelling reasons causing young Palestinians to embark on such awesome acts.
Karen Armstrong, a lecturer at London's Leo Baeck College and author of several books on the Middle East, described martyrdom operations as acts of desperate resistance to an overwhelmingly more powerful enemy bent on suppressing the legitimate aspirations of a people for freedom from occupation and apartheid.
She recognized that the operations are ruthless, but then she said that the occupation was even more ruthless.
" Violence of any sort always breeds violence, and the occupation itself is an act of extreme violence, domination and oppress. The Way things have been moving has been aggressively against the Palestinians."
Armstrong, a former nun, believes that the Israeli occupation is responsible for the kind of violent resistance it meets from the Palestinians.
"The resistance will be as ruthless and violent as the occupation is. Every occupation breeds its own kind of resistance."
Armstrong expressed the view, shared by most Muslim scholars, that martyrdom operations have to do with Israeli murderous oppression than with religion.
" I don't think people sit at home and read the Qura'n and say, yes, I must go and bomb Israel. This is not how religion works, and I see just absolute hopelessness when people have nothing to lose. Palestinians don't have F-16s, and they don't have tanks. They don't have anything to match Israel's arsenal. They only have their own bodies."
Finally, Armstrong accused Israelis and Jews of using the issue of anti-Semitism as a scarecrow to bully Europe to support Israeli Nazism.
"They say Europe is anti-Semitic because for the first time Europe is becoming aware of the plight of the Palestinians. It is part of a campaign to discredit European input in any future peace process."
**
[/quote]