GhostBusters

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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If the prices in the shops are too high, who are you going to call, The Pakistan Army Stores, If there is a devastating earthquake, who are you going to call, The Pakistan Army, If there is flooding and everything is being inundated , who are you going to call, The Pakistan army, If the troops of your enemy are massing up at the border, who are you going to call, The Pakistan Army, If you loose territory to a foreign country , who are you going to call , The Pakistan Army, If You are being attacked , and lawlessness is prevalent, who are you going to call, the Pakistan army, If you want to invest money in an institution, and are apprehensive of corruption, who are you going to call, the Pakistan Army, If You are sick and need to go to a hospital, which do you trust, the Pakistan army (CMH). If the security in your city is failing and you cant find a way, who do you call, the Pakistan Army, If you don’t want to be jobless, have a settled and uneventful life , who do you call, The Pakistan Army, If your land has been squatted upon, or you have been dealt with unjustly, who are you going to call, The Pakistan Army(NAB).

But when it comes to running the country , who do you call, The corrupt democratic parties.
How Hypocritical can you get?

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heh

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...but when it came to running the country, whom Pakistan army has called, see by yourself. Whether the person is the governor of Sindh or the chief minister of Sindh.

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Excellent post! :k:

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"If you want democracy, then you must also be responsible enough to vote for the right people."
-President General Pervez Musharraf, Page 333 'In the Line of Fire'.

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An 'Army' that doesn't let a democratic process grow, and chooses/promotes the most corrupt as their partners.

Pak Army has been in direct and indirect power for most of Pak's existence, they are more to blame for Pak's miserable state than any other, an unavoidable truth

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As I recall, it wasn’t the army that nationalised much of Pakistan’s industry and thus crippled the economy.

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your point about the effects of nationalisation, done decades ago, is 'highly debatable'....to say the least

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The New Land Barons?
By **Ayesha Siddiqa

**

The military’s control of land feeds the largest social injustice in the country: widespread poverty. Like the feudal class, the military has been known to use its power to redistribute land amongst its own without any regard for the country’s poor ethnic populations. In Bahawalpur, there are instances when land developed through years of hard work by landless peasants has been snatched away for distribution to the military bureaucracy. In the tehsil of Nawazabad, the government awarded about 2,500 acres to various military personnel. Hundreds of landless peasants were evicted from state lands after occupying it for years without incident. In an interview, these peasants protested against being evicted from the land they had partially developed and reclaimed from the desert without even a fair hearing. When the peasants took their case to court, junior military officers threatened them, ridiculed the law and advised the peasants that even the courts could not save them from the army’s authority. To the villagers of Nawazabad, there was no difference between the dominant feudal lords and the praetorian military. One local woman bitterly demanded, “If there is no place for us here then [the authorities] should put us on a truck and drop us in India.”

            Across the country, there are many examples of the military wielding                absolute authority to suppress landless peasants in areas where                they directly control the land. In Okara, a conflict ensued between                local tenants and the army that had unilaterally decided to change                the terms of contract from share-cropping to rent-in-cash. While                share-cropping pertains to an arrangement whereby the tenants share                both the input and the output with the owner or whoever controls                the land, the rent-in-cash arrangement dictates that land is cultivated                in exchange for money, or rent. The additional benefit of share-cropping                to the tenant is that his right over the land is recognised by law.                The Okara farm tenants, who had resided on the land and were responsible                for tilling it, feared the new system of contract would empower                the army, who were not even the owners of the land, to displace                the poor tenants from their homes.

                  The Okara farms are                part of the military farms group, Okara and Renala, which comprise                16,627 acres of land consisting of two dairy farms, seven military                (oat-hay) farms and 22 villages. The prime proprietor is evidently                the Punjab government, which leases the land to other people or                institutions. In this particular case, the army had changed the                terms of contract for land it did not own. Moreover, the land lease                had expired before Partition in 1947 not to be renewed again. **To                enforce its authority, the Rangers besieged the villages twice,                imposed curfew, restricted freedom of movement, stopped supply of                medicine, food and vegetables, and used numerous other pressure                tactics.** The report of Human Rights Watch has detailed testimonials                of villagers victimised by the military authorities that were generally                dismissive of the protest. Army personnel claimed that, rather than                being a human rights issue, this was a local law and order issue                incited by some NGOs.
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Are the "Democratic parties" corrupt or only some of its members? Bring all those people involved in corruption to justice. I don't see anyone here denying that the corrupt politicians should be punished. What about the corrupt military personnels? Why are General Fazl e Haq and AM Anwar Shamim still remembered? How did the sons of Zia and Gen. Akhtar become billionaires? Ever read the Hamood Ur Rehman report? Why did Musharraf topple the government of Nawaz Sharif? Just because he was involved in any kind of corruption or there were some other personal reasons? Does the constitution endorse military coups? Should Musharraf be charged for taking over the government illegaly? His coup was an act of treason which is punishable by death. If economic corruption is a crime, and it is a crime, then an act of treason is a much bigger crime.

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Now the military dictators will give us lectures over democracy.

~*~ Iss Waqat Aap ~*~
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Not true, most people still go to their regular stores if they want to buy something. army stores are usually, mostly visited by army personnell.

[quote]
If there is a devastating earthquake, who are you going to call, The Pakistan Army, If there is flooding and everything is being inundated , who are you going to call, The Pakistan army, If the troops of your enemy are massing up at the border, who are you going to call, The Pakistan Army, If you loose territory to a foreign country , who are you going to call , The Pakistan Army, If You are being attacked , and lawlessness is prevalent, who are you going to call, the Pakistan army, If you want to invest money in an institution, and are apprehensive of corruption, who are you going to call, the Pakistan Army,
[/quote]

ummm..... isnt that the ptimary job of an army in the first place

[quote]
If You are sick and need to go to a hospital, which do you trust, the Pakistan army (CMH).
[/quote]

Not really, example CMH in pindi is very unclean. The blood drawing stations had blood ridden swabs on the floor, and one can spot rats crawling. Best hospitals in pakistan are usually private hospitals (and even some gov't run hospitals such as PIMS are wayy better then CMH), and then again, if CMH is better, what does that say about Pakistan? It says that the the govt is willing to spend more on hospitals primarily used by miltary personnell.

[quote]
If you don’t want to be jobless, have a settled and uneventful life , who do you call, The Pakistan Army,
[/quote]

explain this to me, never heard this one before

[quote]
If your land has been squatted upon, or you have been dealt with unjustly, who are you going to call, The Pakistan Army(NAB).
[/quote]

is that why the baloch called the Pak army? all baloch want is more autonomy over natural resources

[quote]
But when it comes to running the country , who do you call, The corrupt democratic parties.

[/quote]

Pak army is, as corrupt as democraric parties. Do you know how much free stuff Pakistani army personnell(more if your higher ranking) gets? and im not talking about menial "free" stuff, im talking about acres upon acres of land

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You left out

If you want to collect utility bills (Gas + Electric) Who are you going to call, The Pakistan Army (Courtesy of Wadi Tind, abaji and Co.)

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Yes the Pakistan army has called in many corrupt people like, shair pao, and others that you mention, but they have all won their way to the assemblies. Whether these corrupt political leaders bribed the “Nation” with 500 rupees a vote or a sewing machine and in some cases with a motor bike the truth of the matter is they won.
Getting paid for voting brings us to another sad but irrefutable point, we are a nation comprising of 99.99 % corrupt people. We cant get chief ministers or governors from mars we have to get them from “Thee people”, So when it comes to running the country why not choose the least corrupt among us. WE not “They” are the people who will exploit, plunder and thieve the country if given the right opportunity till kingdom come.

Its all about choosing the lesser evil, and in my honest opinion I will bet my buck anytime on the army as I have seen first hand how the army works as an institution

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Do You know , you would have had a substantial argument , Only if you would not put in the first statement.
I live in quetta , and Peshawar , two places known to have resentment towards the army, I don’t know where the hell you live but in both these places 90% of people are civilians who visit the army stores. Especially before the ramazan these stores were totally sold out.
So rest of your argument has a value of zilch as it shows you replied in this thread just because of a predisposed bias against the army, probably you have listened too much to your dad. Son!! Make your own mind up , Every thing that dad says is not the Gospel truth.

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And Puhleeze these people talking about democracy, Democracy is not a concept “ one size fits all” and especially it does not fit the Pakistani attire.

Ayaz amir can go to hell.:wave:

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Whatever ! Pakistan Army is the most powerful institution in Pakistan, whther they bring Martial Law or they appoint clean politicians on the board without polling, they should prove they can provide the best government, they haven't showed their true clean power yet. The results will show themselves, whether Pakistani Army can rule or not. So far they have not. Look at the economy and the Tranparency International reports.

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...addition to my previous post. If Pakistan Army cannot remove corrupted politicians and bring clean people into the Pakistan Politics nobody can.

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ikharoon,

[QUOTE]
Not true, most people still go to their regular stores if they want to buy something. army stores are usually, mostly visited by army personnell.
[/QUOTE]

They are *mostly *visited by army personnel and rest of the time by civilians who want slightly better prices, better availability and stock, better quality of aata, daal, cheeni, etc in good hygeinic packing.

[QUOTE]
ummm..... isnt that the ptimary job of an army in the first place
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely, it is the army's job and mashAllah the army has never stepped back, it has always gone beyond the call of duty. Why does it have to go beyond the call of duty? Because there are various civil depts as well which drain resources equally, but at times like these never deliver. So the army has to do their job as well. Like during the earthquake. How many personnel are emplyed by the civil defense dpts, police, fire etc? I'm sure their strenght combined will be more than the army's, but what was their level of contribution...?

[QUOTE]
Not really, example CMH in pindi is very unclean. The blood drawing stations had blood ridden swabs on the floor, and one can spot rats crawling. Best hospitals in pakistan are usually private hospitals (and even some gov't run hospitals such as PIMS are wayy better then CMH), and then again, if CMH is better, what does that say about Pakistan? It says that the the govt is willing to spend more on hospitals primarily used by miltary personnell.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, it may not be as clean as the country's pvt hospitals like AKUH, SK, etc bt do you know there's a diff between the poor and the privileged and there is a class in between that cannot bear the pathetic civil hospitals that even have stray cats wandering inside wards and they do find a huge diff between the quality at the CMH or the Fauji foundation hospitals compared to civil govt hospitals. Sure everyone wants to go the best like AKUH/SK, but not everyone can and they dont offer free treatment to everyone. Again the fauji facilities come in handy, low costs, better quality etc.

[QUOTE]
explain this to me, never heard this one before
[/QUOTE]

Just visit an AS&RC (army selection and recruitment centre) and talk to the countless young men hanging out with hopes and worries in their eyes.

[QUOTE]
is that why the baloch called the Pak army? all baloch want is more autonomy over natural resources
[/QUOTE]

dont drag Balochistan into every issue, it damages the Baloch cause if anything. And I'm sick of that article by Dr Ayesha Sidiqa, it's her job to dig out these controversial issues and she gets paid for it. The army selects abt 300 officer cadets each year in 2 intakes. The officers serving right now from 2Lt to full Gen are perhaps covering courses from the past 30 yrs or so. As these prohpets of doom make it sound like, all of them are so corrupt the devil wants lessons, but think rationally, had they ALL been even closely as corrupt as BB or Mian or their likes, believe they could have sold you and me and we couldnt have done anything abt it. But not all are corrupt and thats why Pakistan is still here and going strong.
And btw, what UTC meant was, if you have a plot of land and someone tries to grab it or not leave it, who do ask for help? Not the local police station and not the DCO or Nazim, you look for a relative in the armed forces, or a friends uncle who's a colonel...

[QUOTE]
Pak army is, as corrupt as democraric parties. Do you know how much free stuff Pakistani army personnell(more if your higher ranking) gets? and im not talking about menial "free" stuff, im talking about acres upon acres of land
[/QUOTE]

Again waht UTC meant was just to point at how huge a contrast there is between the performance. with the past records how could the parties ever be trusted? heck the *democratic *parties have monarchy going on within their own party's heirarchy...Not that i'm totally supporting bonapartism, but am just saying that not everythign can be blamed on army and they should be given credit for what thy do well.
And for God's sake, do you really believe army officers get 'free' goodies? Do you know any 1st hand? what a myth. They do get facilities and financing assistance of various sorts from army welfare dpts. but thats all! everyhting from a plot to whatever is alloted by a well defined procedure. talk to an officer and he'll explain. Some might work around it, but just a rare some.

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Maybe...but tell me, is what he says untrue or wrong or illogical at all...!?