GhostBusters

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Haris Bhai, I don't think you believe anything the General says is 'illogical or wrong at all'. Your bias blinds you to certain facts.

when the dictator says, you must vote for the 'right people'....is this only PML(Q), MQM...etc?!

So anybody who votes for a party that doesn't make a deal with the dictator should be ignored?!

Are these parties(PML(Q),MQM, any less corrupt than those he set his agencies goons to work against, PML(N), PPPP, etc?...of course not

The essence of democracy is you are free to vote for who you want, not to be dictated to.

Need I also remind you of his own rigged referendum? the basis of his 'legitimacy' as 'President'. Musharraf is the last person who should be lecturing on a proper democracy

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dont you think **all **health care facilties in Pakistan should be of high quality?

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Just visit an AS&RC (army selection and recruitment centre) and talk to the countless young men hanging out with hopes and worries in their eyes.
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yes but that recruitment for army, not everyone can join the army you know, utc said they create emplyment opurtunites. recruitment into the army barely qualifies as employment, as most will prbably get rejected.

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And btw, what UTC meant was, if you have a plot of land and someone tries to grab it or not leave it, who do ask for help? Not the local police station and not the DCO or Nazim, you look for a relative in the armed forces, or a friends uncle who's a colonel...
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i agree with you. I know couple of people who have had to have had safarish from army personel just to get a telephone line(rural areas). But doesnt this make you think that the power is proprortionally very off?

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And for God's sake, do you really believe army officers get 'free' goodies? Do you know any 1st hand? what a myth. They do get facilities and financing assistance of various sorts from army welfare dpts. but thats all! everyhting from a plot to whatever is alloted by a well defined procedure. talk to an officer and he'll explain. Some might work around it, but just a rare some.
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BS, army personnel do defiently get free goodies. And I **do **know this first hand. I know of a retired Brig. who has gotten acres upon acres of free land in Rawat(which is near Pindi) and land in nwfp near manshera. And active army personnel get free electricty, telephone, gas etc. Do you really think that is fair? that army personel get these utilities for free, while there are milion of people around the country struggling for these very same utilties.

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^^ Total BS! :slight_smile:
Open a new thread called “speculations, conjectures, and lies” print all this junk there. Believe me that is what your post is all about.
:wave:

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^^ Where do you live UTC?

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You can bet he doesn't live in Pakistan, hence his lack of knowledge.

Your post is accurate.

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^Surprise!
UTC has mentioned in post # 15 he’s in Pakistan.
:wink:

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[quote]
I know of a retired Brig. who has gotten acres upon acres of free land in Rawat(which is near Pindi) and land in nwfp near manshera. And active army personnel get free electricty, telephone, gas etc. Do you really think that is fair? that army personel get these utilities for free, while there are milion of people around the country struggling for these very same utilties.
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ikharoon,
I think this brigadier must have some really good luck that the army gave him free acres upon acres. Subsidised rates are understandable, but free...?

Maybe he's incharge of some fauji farm and lives there, it doesnt mean he owns them :p
anyway i get your point abt the corrupt, sure there are some. but not all!

And about the free/discounted utilities like gas, bijli, phone, sure the army pays for it for the comfort of its valuable employees. Just like MNCs pamper their executives with handsome packages. Why dont we shriek when they shift the burden on us by raising prices...!?

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(1) nobody gets as many 'perks' as the Army

(2) Because they rule the country

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I thuink he does live in Pakistan, in some cantonement board, while Abba Jee is in army and he has been brought up being served by Batman and his wife.

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Read how the greedy pakistan army is grabbing land here and there.

Land and the military
By Farhatullah Babar

Speaking at the groundbreaking ceremony of a power and seawater desalination plant for the Defence Housing Authority (DHA), Karachi last Friday, General Musharraf wondered why some people criticized the Defence societies in various parts of the country.

Why should one be jealous if someone got a cheap piece of land initially and because of the good work done by the housing society the price rose a hundred times and the land holders earned money, he asked, dismissing his critics as ‘pseudo-intellectuals’.

The general would do well to pause and ponder and ask himself as to why the pseudo-intellectual’s tongues are wagging. They are wagging because the pseudo-intellectuals know how the military first captured political power and then employed this power to advance its corporate interests at the expense of civil society.

A housing society called the Lahore Cantonment Cooperative Housing Society Limited was set up in Lahore under the Punjab Cooperative Societies Act 1925. It was a private society and its operations were carried out on private lands.

As soon as the society began flourishing, the army authorities took forcible possession of the society. On a complaint, the registrar Cooperative Societies ordered that elections be held but the occupiers of the society did not allow elections to be held for 10 years.

In 1999, the military authorities ‘persuaded’ the provincial government to issue an ordinance, the “Defence Housing Authority Lahore Ordinance 1999,” to formalize the take over. The ordinance was promptly challenged in the Lahore High Court on the ground that the provincial legislature cannot legislate on matters relating to defence.

While the matter was still pending in courts the provincial government introduced the ordinance in the form of a bill. It was pending in the assembly when the military took over in October 1999 and the assemblies were dissolved.

Under Article 117(2) of the Constitution a bill pending in a provincial assembly lapses on the dissolution of the assembly. As a consequence, the bill lapsed and the Lahore Cantonment Housing Society was revived. But the army authorities did not allow the members of the society to perform their statutory functions and kept allotting plots to military officers.

Barely three weeks before the general elections of 2002, a presidential order No 26 was issued on September 19, 2002 under which the Defence Housing Authority, Lahore, was set up. This order was subsequently indemnified through the 17th Amendment in the Constitution, thus giving a pseudo-legal basis to the take over of the Society.

If the plots in the DHA Lahore have become an investor’s bonanza it was not due the management of the military authorities but due to the fact that an established private housing society had forcibly been taken over at almost no cost.

Now take the DHA, Karachi. Here too a cooperative housing society formed in 1953 under the Sindh Cooperatives Societies Act 1925. During Zia’s martial law the military the society was abolished and replaced with the Pakistan Defence Officers Housing Authority under presidential Order 7 of 1980.

This order was subsequently indemnified at the time of lifting of martial law, thus again giving a pseudo-legal cover to a forcible take over. The DHA Karachi it is not subordinate to any ministry nor under statutory administrative control.

A few weeks ago in reply to a question in the Senate it transpired that the authority owes Cantonment Board, Clifton, a hefty sum of Rs 280 million accumulated over the past two decades.

It is also worth recalling how the authority it forced the provincial government of Sindh to surrender to it 240 acres of prime land at a dirt cheap price. The provincial government had through law banned the sale of owned by it to other entities.

But the DHA forcibly occupied 240 acres of government land. The provincial government moved the SHC against it claiming that the market price of the land was Rs 15,000 per square yard for residential and Rs 25,000 per square yard for commercial plots.

The provincial government was forced to withdraw its ordinance banning the sale of land, withdraw its petition from the SHC and agree to the sale of 240 acres of land to the DHA at a ridiculously low rate of Rs 20 a square yard.

If the ‘pseudo-intellectuals’ find it hard to accept the claim that the DHA has become an investor’s bonanza because of excellent management, are they to blame?

Or, take the case of military farmlands in Okara and other towns of Punjab. The farmlands belong to the Punjab government and were leased to the military for a specific purpose. The military has neither paid the lease rent to the provincial government nor vacated the land and returned it to the provincial government.

Instead, the military has asked the tenants to renounce their rights of sharecropping and accept its contract system. The military has promised them that they will not be ejected but the tenants refuse to believe this knowing full well how captured state lands have been captured in the past. What fate befell the tenants has been documented by human rights bodies and need not be recounted here.

Or consider what has happened to the lands given to the military for specific defence purposes in the past. Recently it transpired in parliament that the military had transformed six agricultural and dairy farms spread over several hundred acres of land into golf courses and army housing schemes. If an enterprise gets prime land free and develops housing societies on it, this is bound to became an investor’s bonanza.

General Musharraf also said the military was not engaged in any commercial activity. If the Askari stud farms, Askari fish farms, Askari guards, Army Welfare Shoe project, Fauji Corn Complex, Fauji Poly Propylene products, Fauji sugar mills, Army Welfare sugar mills, Fauji Cement, Fauji Kabirwala Power Company, Fauji Corn Complex, Fongas, Fauji Fertilizer Company, Fauji oil terminal company project, Askari leasing, Askari welfare pharmaceutical project, army welfare woollen mill, army welfare hosiery unit, Askari welfare saving scheme and Askari information service do not show the military’s involvement in commercial activity, then what do they indicate?

Isn’t it the same as a political party getting into power and then using state power to advance party interests by making laws to legalize such activity?

*The writer is a member of the Senate. *

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The poor peasants of Okara do also have first-hand experience of army’s unsatiated lust for land.
Pakistan Barbarish in the PUnjab- the plight of the Okara tenants

This is not a story out of the Middle Ages, nor is it a tale from some remote small forgotten African country. No, it is a story from the heart of Pakistan in the 21st century. Deep in the heartlands of the Punjab you will find Okara where there is some of the most fertile land in all Pakistan.

In 1900 the British imperial Raj planned to develop a canal system for the agricultural development of the Punjab. The workers were hired and under great hardship they developed one of the world’s best irrigation systems right here in the Punjab.

The British promised the labourers agricultural land as a reward for their work. Some families were settled in Okara and given tenant status. They were promised that within a certain period of time they would get outright ownership rights.

However, in 1913 the land was given to the army for 20 years, but the army never evacuated it and the tenants are still forced to this day to deal with them according to the original agreements.

After the partition the land was permanently occupied by the Pakistani Army. Actually the land is formally the property of the Punjab government. But in its greed to grab more land the Pakistani army recently went further and asked the tenants to evacuate the land, the same land they have harvested for a century and which is not even considered as army property. According to the law even if the lease is expired the tenants cannot be evacuated from their land.

The poor peasants resisted the army demands and started a peaceful protest. This is what started the whole nightmare. Initially the police entered the villages and brutally attacked the poor people. They were harassed, beaten, arrested and tortured. Even women and children were not spared.

**The police having failed to suppress the people, the army was called in. Violating every ethical and legal norm the army used draconian measures. All the villages were besieged and a curfew was imposed. Brutal torture was perpetrated against the poor tenants.

All the roads in and out of Okara have been closed and the place has been cut off from the entire world. No one can come in or come out. Machine guns have been placed out side the villages and they are used whenever someone tries to come out.

People have been kidnapped, tortured and killed. No journalist is allowed to enter. So far, more than 18 people have been killed in Okara. More than one hundred thousand people are besieged in this way.

All this was documented by a fact-finding mission comprising of human rights activists who, however, were not allowed free access. The group requested a post-mortem to be carried out on those that had been killed in the clashes, but the army refused this.**

These poor peasants are still being subjected to brutal tyranny. To increase the efficiency of their terror methods the army has now even brought in cannons to be used against the villages. The people are thus now struggling for their very basic right to live.

This is a fight between the landless peasants and biggest landowner in Pakistan, the Pakistani army. This is a great burden on the moral conscience of the nation. Why are the sons and daughters of Pakistan not allowed to get the bread they have harvested after so much hard work? The fundamental question being posed is “Whom does the land belong to? Those who harvest it or those who hold the gun?”

We strongly support our brothers and sisters who are fighting for their rights, their heroic struggle for their land.

  • Jis kheet se dehqan ko muasir na ho rozi!
  • Us kheet ke her kosha-e-gandam KO jala do!

Our brothers and sisters in Okara must realize that this is the struggle between two classes, the haves and have-nots. Only true revolutionary tactics can guarantee long lasting economic freedom and prosperity. We are with you in every step of your struggle.

Dr. Arslan, Dr. Abdullah and Dr. Shakeeb,
at the Nishtar Hospital, Multan.

**
**

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Which army has never conquered an inch of enemy but conquers its own people at every oppurtunity---Pakistan Army

Which army has violated the constitution of its own country more than any other army---Pakistan army

Which army has mutated into a ruling class, taking actions in their own ionterest, making separate housings, recruiting their own kith and kin, harassing civilians----- Pakistan army

Which is the army who's generals sons become big businessmen or land owners like Gouhar Ayub, Akhtar A/Rahman etc----Pakistan Army

Which army owns 8 million acres of land in Punjab---Pakistan army ( 10 % of land, according to the 1912 Colonization of Land Act, is allotted to the military

Which army gets 30% of the whole country's budget--Pakistan army

Which army is still not satisfied with 30% of budget and puts every Tom,Dick and harry retired army man in civilian positions---Pakistan Army

Can one get any clearer that this.

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These are all old arguments: Who did the Army turn to after losinghalf the country..a civilian.. who did they turn to when they needed the pressler sanctions eased..the civilians...who gave pakistan its nuclear and missle programmes.. civilians. Who gave Pakistan its only unanimous constitution..civilians. Who won the cricket world cup..a civilian, who is Pakistans only nobel prize winner..a civilian. The list goes on..what are/were pakistans most successfully run state owned enterprises ..civilian led ones.

In the end the Army has shown again and again it cannot root out corruption or solve Pakistans complex ethnic and sectarian problems. More importantly Pakistans history has shown again and again stealing money damages Pakistan but the corruption of power has almost destroyed it..

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Excellent post. :k:

Not to forget, that the greatest economic and infrastructural development of Pakistan has happened when the Army has had direct control, and the least when the “democrats” assumed power.

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Accurate, but painful facts for Army family members/supporters

The Army has been in power the majority of Pak's existence, thus they more than anyone are accountable for the sad state of Pakistan....not that they hold themselves accountable

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Well Said, we should all understand one very simple rule in the priorities in life,


***Guns or Butter, In order to keep putting “Butter” on our plates, we need “Guns” or else neighbors with Guns will steal your Butter…:smiley: ***


Look around you almost all the world’s economies are dependant on the Defense Industries, weapon builders and delivery systems. Ships, Aircraft, Rockets and Nuclear technologies were all developed out of need for Defence…even the wheel was invented for the Horse drawn Chariots the first War Wagon.

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Hahah

  • Dud ka Gawah Duddoo*

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How typical , you must be a person born in a total civilian family which lacks discipline and ethics, where dad’s some dodgy doings were foiled by NAB, and had landed him in prison, then you had to deliver Tiffans of lunch in a jail near Attock.

Its ironic but true 90% of the people that I have met, badmouthing the army were mostly parroting tales and stories that were told to them by their dads/uncles. In most cases the dad or uncle were either refused to be inducted by the army, or were caught dead in their tracks making dishonest deals with large payoffs. Can you see the anger is not “Why is the army doing it?” its more of the type “Why Cant We do it”. Cursing the army has become ancestral property just passes on from father to son.

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^Wrong, i was brought up ion a civilan family who beleived in hard work and justice, and we worked our way to success, thats why we left the country being raped by army.
You people are parasites, sucking off the blood of Pakistan's people, while doing nothing in return.
Just go and have some beer in officers mess.

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Once agian these miltary parasites condemn all as 'civilians' not capable of running the country, while stealing and ruining the country at the same time

Making excuses as to why people criticise the Army, made to distract attention from the valid complaints people have don't change the facts over the Army corruption and power grab